Requirements for zoa/paly?

[A. Grandis]

Just one more thing...
I forgot to post this great article on vinegar.

http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/116-vinegar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium

Vinegar does not enhance coloration in corals.
Vodka could lead to cyano problems while vinegar would not.
Using GAC will help with the excess organics produced by the bacteria.
It talks about the bacteria blooms and tell us the importance of skimmer and a dosing pump to slow dose the vinegar during daylight hours. That won't work with the benthic bacteria though.
Interesting...

...and the vodka article:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2008-08/nftt/index.php


Grandis.

 

[tmz]

. That could be interpreted as excess

Excessive is a term with pejorative connotations. I don't consider 40 fish in 665 gallons excessive. It works out to something like: one tang sized fish, 2 clowns, 2 small wrasses and a goby for a hundred gallons. The fish are well fed , healthy and longlived.

While I think target feeding can be useful , it may just be adding to nutrient load in some cases particulary when done to excess for non responsive feeders. Palythoa and Protopaythoa eat many foods offerd readily; many if not most zoanthus do not.ime and that of many others including authorities in the field.

The vinegar article is useful as is the vodka article . This thread gives a broad look at organic carbon dosing and options :

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...+carbon+dosing

It's not clear whether color is enhanced as an outcome of dosing.
I don't know why you think vinegar dosing does not work with the benthic bacteria, or more prcisely the faculative heterotrophic denitrifying heterotrophic bacteia: it's the main point of it. Vinegar( acetic acid ) and vodka ( ethanol) are almost the same thing btw. Ethanol oxidizes to acetic acid in water.

Anyone interested in carbon dosing should read and ponder for a while to get you head around it . It's a good tool but needs to be understood if you choose to use it.

 

[KafudaFish]

Do you think that the dosing levels are standard regardless of tank size and bioload or in your experience do you believe that a smaller tank with a light bioload would work better at concentrations less than discussed such as your 100 ml/day dosing rate?

I realize you have to amp up to a certain level, check levels, then determine the maintenance levels after that, monitor and adjust as you go.

For example instead of 0.5 ml/gal using 0.25 ml/gal if that makes sense.

 

[tmz]

To be clear, it's not 100ml . I bolus dose 18ml of vodka and 64 ml of viegar in the am and 8ml of vodka in the pm. The vodka is 8x less dilute than the vinegar( 80 proof vodka is 60% water and 40% ethanol/ standard store white vinegar is 5% acetic acid and 95% water) . So 1ml of vodka = 8 of vinegar in terms of carbon content. I dose a total of 26 ml vodka which = 208ml of vinegar plus 64 ml of vinegar for a grand total of 272 vinegar equivalents ( or 34 ml vodka equivalents) for the 600 gallons. Many folks tend to settle in around .5ml vinegar equivalents per gallon, some go higher , I'm a little lower at .45ml per gallon.

BTW if you choose sugar or ascorbic acid or another solid form which I don't like but some do, it has no water; thus 1 gram would be roughly equivalent to 2.5 ml of vodka or 20 ml of vinegar.

I do not think dosing levels can be standardized; too many variables in play: surface area, filtration methods, skimmer output, nutrient import levels, nutrient levels at start up and animals in the tank to name some. Amping up slowly per the articles is the safest . I think you can go a little faster. I also recommend getting your nitrate and phospahte down to a somewhat reasonable level before you start to avoid overdosing. When the nitrate and phosphate is high it can take quite a while,ie months to see it drop and then your dose may be much to high for maintenance.

I think much more on carbon dosing in this thread will take it further off course than I intended , so I'd ask those with more questions on carbon dosing to post them on this thread:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...+carbon+dosing

I'll be more than happy to answer them here or there but prefer to not continue highjacking this thread. There are lot's of other zoanthid tips and best practices to be had.

 

[A. Grandis]

Hi tmz,

. That could be interpreted as excess

Excessive is a term with pejorative connotations. I don't consider 40 fish in 665 gallons excessive. It works out to something like: one tang sized fish, 2 clowns, 2 small wrasses and a goby for a hundred gallons. The fish are well fed , healthy and long-lived.

I have no problem with that.
Feeding them twice a day is also pejorative if you don't say how much.
It's all pejorative. That's fine.

I think target feeding can be useful , it may just be adding to nutrient load in some cases particulary when done to excess for non responsive feeders. Palythoa and Protopaythoa eat many foods offerd readily; many if not most zoanthus do not.ime and that of many others including authorities in the field.

It's really weird how many people say that Zoanthus doesn't receive food. Most of the time they don't even think about trying to target feed the zoas because they read a book or a friend thell them. Sometimes authorities too...
The authorities publish what they see in papers but if they try to feed them they will see the results I've seen.

Let me ask you three questions, please:
Do you have any "people eaters" in your system?
Do they grab fast and eat if you offer them food particles, like coral food?
Their scientific name is Zoanthus gigantus, did you know that?

Zoanthus will capture food particles, ingest and digest. I don't need to read about it because I see that all the time. Small zoanthus, bigger... I've seen that today!! I'm sorry, but this subject is going around here in our conversation. I do respect the so called "authorities", as I've said before. You need to understand that they write what they find in the scientific papers they've researched. That's all. The scientific community study the organisms collected from the wild and open them up to find out what they eat. Papers...

Now, if you interpret that as "if they have low response they probably won't need so many food in the aquarium" that's cool.
I say all the time that you can keep all types of zoanthids without target feeding. I would be hypocrite if I couldn't say that because I kept them that way for many years...

It's all good. I was just exposing how I do, not to try impose it to anyone else. I'm sorry if sounded like that...

vinegar article is useful as is the vodka article . This thread gives a broad look at organic carbon dosing and options :

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...+carbon+dosing

Thanks again!

not clear whether color is enhanced as an outcome of dosing.
I don't know why you think vinegar dosing does not work with the benthic bacteria, or more prcisely the faculative heterotrophic denitrifying heterotrophic bacteia: it's the main point of it. Vinegar( acetic acid ) and vodka ( ethanol) are almost the same thing btw. Ethanol oxidizes to acetic acid in water.

You have explained that before, thanks!
It's not what I think. Those lines I've wrote were ideas from the article linked.
Perhaps I should write in another way. You misunderstood the point! Please go back and read the context and you'll probably understand.
I meant that the skimmer won't remove bacteria attached to the substrate and glass, as the article suggests.

Anyone interested in carbon dosing should read and ponder for a while to get you head around it . It's a good tool but needs to be understood if you choose to use it.

Agreed!


Grandis.

 

[KafudaFish]

Thank you. Not sure where I got the 100 ml but I guess that is what I get for reading about this while at work.

I have dosed before and got the results I wanted but it was more by accident than anything else. I had just made a 16 oz. solution and I left the bottle sitting on my sump to go do something and when I came back the bottle was in the sump.
For a month I would empty an I-tech 100 cup 2x a day and the entire house smelled.

Again thanks for the interesting read and there is much to ponder if I decide to use this method.

 

[tmz]

I do respect the so called "authorities", as I've said before. You need to understand that they write what they find in the scientific papers they've researched. That's all. The scientific community study the organisms collected from the wild and open them up to find out what they eat. Papers...


Can't let that stand like that . For clarification.
I don't just echo stuff , I make my own observations and use the science and observations of others to help understand what I am seeing. That's why I'm talking to folks here to garner what I can from their take and asses it's value and applicability to whatever approach and /or refinements I decide to use .

The folks have cited in the above posts(Shimek, Borneman, Sprung , Delbeek,Farley) are collectively scientists authors and in at least one case manage large public aquariums. Some of them also do much filed work including diving and experimentation. That's why they are experts whom I agree with on most but not all issues.

Bacteria break off the benthic communities all the time and become a planktonic food source . There may also be planktonic bacteria in play. Bacterial blooms that occur with overdosing and the formation of stringy bacterial mass in the water and on surfaces show they are moving or moved about throughout the aquarium. In any case skimmer production goes way up as bacteria which are attracted to the air water interface are skimmed out when dosing occurs; nitrate goes down . Acetic acid(vinegar) and ethanol( vodka) are highly miscible. They diffuse throughout the water

 

[tmz]

Thank you. Not sure where I got the 100 ml but I guess that is what I get for reading about this while at work.

I have dosed before and got the results I wanted but it was more by accident than anything else. I had just made a 16 oz. solution and I left the bottle sitting on my sump to go do something and when I came back the bottle was in the sump.
For a month I would empty an I-tech 100 cup 2x a day and the entire house smelled.

Again thanks for the interesting read and there is much to ponder if I decide to use this method.

You are welcome.Good luck.

 

[tmz]

One of the most important things we have to consider in zoa keeping is their necessity to the food particles, as ingested food, and absorption from the water. They need the supplementation of both for their optimal metabolism and many of us are still learning about that part. That along with light, water flow, temperature, filtration, etc...

I agree.As I have stated all along they all have heterotrophic needs; all corals even sps do, but genera and species of Zoanthaidae vary in this regard , how they feed and what they'll eat.. They all like relatively low nutrient water which makes the issue of feeding something they will eat important. Bacteria and/or organics absorbtion seem to be quite useful in this regard.

I've been keeping zoas for more than 15 years now and never paid too much attention to target feeding until about 2 years ago. Their response to target feeding is huge to me and it completes the need of the system as a whole, I believe. Same balance needs to be achieved here, input and output of nutrients. That's normal for any system.

I will try more target feeding with different combinations for different species. I think it may have promise in moderation even with the organic carbon dosing. I'm always looking to improve.

 

[tmz]

Let me ask you three questions, please:
Do you have any "people eaters" in your system?
Do they grab fast and eat if you offer them food particles, like coral food?
Their scientific name is Zoanthus gigantus, did you know that?

Hi,

Yes I knew that they are classified as a zoanthus.

I have target fed in the past and still had some coral frenzy on hand that I occasionally but very infrequently use mostly for sps.

So, I took some saturated in tank water this am and sprayed it gently with a turkey baster over an array of zonanthidae colonies, 3 times at five minute intervals.

This is what I saw:

Many of them curled up to varying degrees , perhaps from the irritation to the spray even though it was gentle.

About a third didn't react at all except for a flicker of movement.

Some closed only partially and reopened within 5 to 15 seconds.

The zoanthus gigantus, I have several variants ,curled a bit; one PPE ployp closed; but they all opened with a 5 t o10 second time frame.

Some of the other specimens presumably pays and protopalys closed like a fist and stayed that way for at least 5 minutes.

I'm going to continue this 2x per week for a month or two just to see what I can see.:rollface:

 

[A. Grandis]

Can't let that stand like that . For clarification.
I don't just echo stuff , I make my own observations and use the science and observations of others to help understand what I am seeing. That's why I'm talking to folks here to garner what I can from their take and asses it's value and applicability to whatever approach and /or refinements I decide to use .

I've never said that you are echoing stuff. You are assuming that for the second time. What are you talking about? I was referring only about the target feeding on zoas, specifically. You should read slowly and pay attention to the interpretation in the context, please.

folks have cited in the above posts(Shimek, Borneman, Sprung , Delbeek,Farley) are collectively scientists authors and in at least one case manage large public aquariums. Some of them also do much filed work including diving and experimentation. That's why they are experts whom I agree with on most but not all issues.

I know all that. I firmly agree. :beer:

Whatever they write about zoa feeding and food particles is true and basically are:
1. What scientist found in zoas's guts.
2. Zoanthus spp. don't respond to food offered food particles with the same responsive action as Palythoas and Protopalythoas.
And I agree. I would be crazy to disagree with that.

Did you get your clarification now? :thumbsup:

Grandis.

 

[A. Grandis]

Hi,

Yes I knew that they are classified as a zoanthus.

I have target fed in the past and still had some coral frenzy on hand that I occasionally but very infrequently use mostly for sps.

So, I took some saturated in tank water this am and sprayed it gently with a turkey baster over an array of zonanthidae colonies, 3 times at five minute intervals.

This is what I saw:

Many of them curled up to varying degrees , perhaps from the irritation to the spray even though it was gentle.

That's great!
Please don't "spray" on them. Turn off all pumps and let food drop gently on their discs for an accurate observation.
It is irritation or food rejection when they spit it out or not even close on them.

About a third didn't react at all except for a flicker of movement.

That will depend on what you've fed them. Coral Frenzy should drive them crazy! I've never noticed that reaction except with the very tiny species of zoanthids when feeding Coral Frenzy. Even so they ingest the food particles, but they just take longer to get them.

Some closed only partially and reopened within 5 to 15 seconds.

Did they ingest the food? Was the coral Frenzy gone?

The zoanthus gigantus, I have several variants ,curled a bit; one PPE ployp closed; but they all opened with a 5 t o10 second time frame.

Did they ingest the food too?

Some of the other specimens presumably pays and protopalys closed like a fist and stayed that way for at least 5 minutes.

Yep, that's the way they do. Please let us now if you've noticed that they have ingested the food.
Zoanthus can stay closed for much longer than that.

I'm going to continue this 2x per week for a month or two just to see what I can see.:rollface:

I've notice that if you feed them all in one day once a week should be more than enough. If you decide to feed say half of the tank in one day, then you choose one more day during that week to feed the other half of the polyps. Sometimes that works better, when you have tons for polyps.
Keep the skimmer running good. It doesn't really matter if you feed them during the night or during the day except that when lights are on some fishes could ry to still food from them. That wouldn't be good due to the aggressive action of some fishes.
They do seem to react stronger when lights are off, for some reason.

My colonies are doing much better after I've fed them. One of the main observations was that if you don't feed them they apparently get weak and loose some of their ability to capture food some how.
The colors are brighter and they look more like when we see them in the ocean.
All those observations a will depend on the type of food and size of the particles we offer them too.

Have fun!!!

Grandis.

 

[tmz]

You should read slowly and pay attention to the interpretation in the context, please.

I know how to read and pay very close attention.

If you meant your comment about reading stuff and repeating it another way just say so.

I try hard not to tell people what they should or shouldn't do, it's patronizing and condescending and arrogant. But since there are a number of "you shoulds" and at least one "you missed the point "in this thread I'll offer an exception :

You should learn to communicate without telling people you should or you did this and that it will be more effective . There are many ways to run reefs ,raise corals and keep fish and lot's of folks with varying experiences who collectively if not individually know more than you or I.
My objective is to provide information from the field of knowledge and my own experience on various topics to help folks make their own informed decisions and to gather new information and observations along the way.
Although I haven't seen the corals you keep, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to your claim of 15 years of success and try to learn what I can from it.


:frog:

 

[A. Grandis]

You should read slowly and pay attention to the interpretation in the context, please.

I know how to read and pay very close attention.

If you meant your comment about reading stuff and repeating it another way just say so.

I try hard not to tell people what they should or shouldn't do, it's patronizing and condescending and arrogant. But since there are a number of "you shoulds" and at least one "you missed the point "in this thread I'll offer an exception :

You should learn to communicate without telling people you should or you did this and that it will be more effective . There are many ways to run reefs ,raise corals and keep fish and lot's of folks with varying experiences who collectively if not individually know more than you or I.
My objective is to provide information from the field of knowledge and my own experience on various topics to help folks make their own informed decisions and to gather new information and observations along the way.
Although I haven't seen the corals you keep, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to your claim of 15 years of success and try to learn what I can from it.


:frog:

No problem, you can doubt my claims. I don't need to proof nothing here.
I would still tell you to read slow and try to understand without getting too defensive. I'm sorry if I sounded arrogant. It wasn't my intention.
I don't consider myself an authority nor want to get there anyways, so...
Many would respect your opinions better than mine specially because you've got the TOTM, but no problem... I'm here to learn from you too.
And I don't keep corals, but zoanthids.

I'm glad you're also a gentleman!
No hard feelings.

:frog:

Grandis. :wave: