What we can do is try to educate. Also you can look at it this way....in a short while the "Nemo" craze will pass, as will the kids interest. It was the same for the dog breeders when 101 dalmations came out. What we can be grateful for is that movie may have gotten some people into the hobby. I am one of those. My children love animals and fell for Nemo. I set-up a nano tank and came here doing tons of research. I went from a 30 gallon to a 125 with 110 gallon fuge, 92 corner bow and currently am setting up a 150. I am a active member of a local reef club. I trade and buy frags. My 17yo is addicted. He has attended IMAC, went to New York to Atlantis, we both attended Dr. Foster's grand opening of the aquaculture facility, and he has plans to attend MACNA. We love and care for our finned friends. I spend atleast 1 to 2 hours per day in our tanks feeding, cleaning,testing, or just documenting what is going on. Have I killed fish....yes, unfortunatly I have had things die. I have had typical emergencies, and have learned, but not to the blind expense of living things. YOu will lose fish/corals. If our methods were perfect everyone would be doing this hobby, as you stated many this are now tank raised and aquacultured.....that in itself points to success, that our efforts may one day what saves our oceans.
Responsibly wild caught vs. tank raised?
- Thread starter maddyfish
- Start date
macman7010
New member
I disagree with the initial representation of what was just said to start this post. I do not feel that "responsibly" collecting reef fish so that they are high priced will help the aquarium industry at all. I dont know about the west coat of other places in the U.S. but here on the East Coast in Maryland where I live Aqua Cultured or Tank Raised fish are far more expensive then the wild caught variety.
In the case of clownfish, for me, I can get a wild caught False Percula or Percula clown for about $14.99 USD and a tank raised or aqua cultured percula or false percula clown for roughly $39-59.99 USD per fish. I paid over $230.00 USD for a mated pair of Gold Strip Maroon Clowns - personally I feel tank raising fish only helps the hobby. It makes the fish stronger and more adapted to tank life and gives us as hobbyists a better idea of thier behavior and needs.
Wild caught marine fish, even ones responsibly caught, con carry pathogens and parasites, sometimes will not eat, can be diffucult to acclimate - etc - etc -etc. What the saltwater fish hobby needs more than high priced fish is education on the proper way to keep aquarium fish and retailers that strive to give that.
Anyone who lives on the east coast near Pittsburgh PA should visit Wet Pets and Friends. I have gotten to know this outlet's owner well and they strive to be ethically and morally sound, and really have the expertise to educate thier customers on proper husbandry methods. More places that use Wet Pet's model for aquarium retail would help our hobby.
In the case of clownfish, for me, I can get a wild caught False Percula or Percula clown for about $14.99 USD and a tank raised or aqua cultured percula or false percula clown for roughly $39-59.99 USD per fish. I paid over $230.00 USD for a mated pair of Gold Strip Maroon Clowns - personally I feel tank raising fish only helps the hobby. It makes the fish stronger and more adapted to tank life and gives us as hobbyists a better idea of thier behavior and needs.
Wild caught marine fish, even ones responsibly caught, con carry pathogens and parasites, sometimes will not eat, can be diffucult to acclimate - etc - etc -etc. What the saltwater fish hobby needs more than high priced fish is education on the proper way to keep aquarium fish and retailers that strive to give that.
Anyone who lives on the east coast near Pittsburgh PA should visit Wet Pets and Friends. I have gotten to know this outlet's owner well and they strive to be ethically and morally sound, and really have the expertise to educate thier customers on proper husbandry methods. More places that use Wet Pet's model for aquarium retail would help our hobby.
Buckeye ME
In Memoriam
Wow, I never imagined so many "bleeding hearts" here.
Our responsibility to maintain natural resources (the reef) far outweighs any responsibility we have to keeping tank-raised $15 fish from being killed by negligent owners. This whole concept is absurd.
No one advocates poor care for pets, but as long as it does not harm the "real" environment, I don't take nearly as big an issue with it.
Our responsibility to maintain natural resources (the reef) far outweighs any responsibility we have to keeping tank-raised $15 fish from being killed by negligent owners. This whole concept is absurd.
No one advocates poor care for pets, but as long as it does not harm the "real" environment, I don't take nearly as big an issue with it.
AJ31655
Premium Member
Raising prices won't help any, they people who are most to blame from what I see are the people with the money to burn. Besides the resposibilty lies with the LFS and its employees, if someone went and purchased a tang for a 20 gallon and no one told them otherwise, how is that thier fault, that is the stores fault. I also would much rather see tank raised fish die than wild caught, but I honestly hate seeing any SW fish die, except damsels. But the bottom line is that the LFS and even the online fish store is who holds the responsibility.
Buckeye ME
In Memoriam
Why do we have to give them value? They will exist without human demand on their inhabitants, that's what matters. The value is they are still there to be enjoyed for viewing.
Are you claiming 3rd world countries benefit economically from us, and that is a reason to harvest wild animals?
If we stop or limit purchase of reef products, then to a third world country with no other useful products, the reef ceases to have value. It is easy to sit here in the U.S. and say they have value because they exist and we can view them, but to people in Fiji, or Indonesia, value means money with which they can buy food.
Buckeye ME
In Memoriam
So if they have no value why would people be harming them? Do you see what I'm getting at? These reefs in Fiji aren't getting destroyed due to pollution like the ones in the US, they are being overharvested. If they have no value for harvesting, they will be left alone.
knowse
New member
Buckeye ME said:
Dispite what you may think, over harvesting isn't the biggest concern on the reefs. Food fishing with cyanide, dredging, bottom trawling, blast fishing and agricultureral runoff are all bigger problems. Some MO fisherman also use cyanide to catch those preety tangs that everyone loves so much. Cyanide kills corals.
The fishermen are poor people, and our hobby sometimes gives them enough money to buy food with. I know, I lived in the PI for a few years and saw how those people lived. Those poor people even have to pay to send their kids to school.
I wasn't implying you get more money by being mean or foolish. I was suggesting that those people have the income to purchase fish regardless of cost, therefore making the cost irrelevent. The global warming issue was questioned when Julian gave his speech and he stated that those in disbelief should spend an afternoon on the reef's seeing what he sees on a regular basis. The people harm them to feed their families. Our hobby has shown them that grinding it up at $60 per ton for roads isn't in their best interest, when they can sell to the hobby for $6000. We stop purchasing/stop enjoying our tanks, they go back to harvesting for roads again....they have to feed their families. If you have a family and that family is hungry you will do what you have to to feed them. Also the Cyanide is the culprit for destroyed reefs. Butterflies are another commonly Cyanided fish as well.
macman7010
New member
as hobbyists we need to help strides toward aqua cultured and tank raised species of everything, that is the best option for the future.
cortez marine
In Memoriam
wildcaught the only answer
wildcaught the only answer
"as hobbyists we need to help strides toward aqua cultured and tank raised species of everything, that is the best option for the future".
Thats the worst option for the future.
If you cut the fisherfolk out of the loop, they will not go quietly into the night.
They will not spare anything on the reef if we withdraw from the battlefront.
They will smash, smuggle, spear, overfish, sell the sand and wage war to earn what they can.
By our market for wildlife we can excaberate the looting or we can partner in the harvesting properly.
Sustainable collecting practices can be taught and markets can involve all the way down to the field level.
A spirit of corporate responsibility can displace the looting partnership that has so given the trade a black eye . Importers have sponsored agents of handling and packing reform and can extend it to collecting reform .
I'm now involved with a company that believes this and is putting their money where their mouth is. Others can follow.
If we do it well enough on tape....we may even teach environmental groups how to do it.
More news as it unfolds.
Steve
wildcaught the only answer
"as hobbyists we need to help strides toward aqua cultured and tank raised species of everything, that is the best option for the future".
Thats the worst option for the future.
If you cut the fisherfolk out of the loop, they will not go quietly into the night.
They will not spare anything on the reef if we withdraw from the battlefront.
They will smash, smuggle, spear, overfish, sell the sand and wage war to earn what they can.
By our market for wildlife we can excaberate the looting or we can partner in the harvesting properly.
Sustainable collecting practices can be taught and markets can involve all the way down to the field level.
A spirit of corporate responsibility can displace the looting partnership that has so given the trade a black eye . Importers have sponsored agents of handling and packing reform and can extend it to collecting reform .
I'm now involved with a company that believes this and is putting their money where their mouth is. Others can follow.
If we do it well enough on tape....we may even teach environmental groups how to do it.
More news as it unfolds.
Steve
macman7010
New member
Re: wildcaught the only answer
Re: wildcaught the only answer
I am afraid this really makes no sense to me what so ever. First of all imagine a marine hobby where nearly every species of fish, invert, coral, etc was tank raised as opposed to wild caught. A marine hobby much like the freshwater aquarium hobby is, one where a customer could make the choice to keep only tank raised stock and still have lots of stock avaliable to choose from - really enough to fullfill a lifetime of fish keeping.
I dont understand why any of the native fisherman that are catching coral reef fish for the aquarium trade would smuggle, spear or overfish anything if they had no need to. Likely there would still be some species of fish that they would need to catch for the industry (much like the freshwater industry has some fish that are still wild caught for it). So it would still be to the fisherman's benefit to be careful with the reef.
This way our hobby would not have near the enviromental impact it does today, and the stock we would acquire would be of higher quality and already suited to captive life. Look at freshwater Discus. Wild caught fish needed water quality that nearly mimicked the blackwater conditions of Brazil where they were found. Today tank bred Discus live in a variety of water conditions, many that would kill a wild caught fish in a matter of days.
Re: wildcaught the only answer
cortez marine said:
I am afraid this really makes no sense to me what so ever. First of all imagine a marine hobby where nearly every species of fish, invert, coral, etc was tank raised as opposed to wild caught. A marine hobby much like the freshwater aquarium hobby is, one where a customer could make the choice to keep only tank raised stock and still have lots of stock avaliable to choose from - really enough to fullfill a lifetime of fish keeping.
I dont understand why any of the native fisherman that are catching coral reef fish for the aquarium trade would smuggle, spear or overfish anything if they had no need to. Likely there would still be some species of fish that they would need to catch for the industry (much like the freshwater industry has some fish that are still wild caught for it). So it would still be to the fisherman's benefit to be careful with the reef.
This way our hobby would not have near the enviromental impact it does today, and the stock we would acquire would be of higher quality and already suited to captive life. Look at freshwater Discus. Wild caught fish needed water quality that nearly mimicked the blackwater conditions of Brazil where they were found. Today tank bred Discus live in a variety of water conditions, many that would kill a wild caught fish in a matter of days.
macman7010
New member
Wait a second I just noticed your occupation reads that you are a collector, importer. So you are saying if sometime in the near future most of marine aquarium livestock is tank raised and aqua cultured this is what you plan to do...
"they will not go quietly into the night.
They will not spare anything on the reef if we withdraw from the battlefront.
They will smash, smuggle, spear, overfish, sell the sand and wage war to earn what they can."
"they will not go quietly into the night.
They will not spare anything on the reef if we withdraw from the battlefront.
They will smash, smuggle, spear, overfish, sell the sand and wage war to earn what they can."
MiddletonMark
Premium Member
So says a guy tied into the import business.
Self-interest showing through?
Self-interest showing through?
I believe that the only way we have a say in the reefs' future is to continue to purchase reef products, but require that they are responsibly caught. Without reefkeepers the reefs are awfully useful with which to pave roads. If you think 3rd world people won't grind them up for a bite of food, you're wrong. The only way we have a say is to pay, and pay well, for responsibly harvested stock.
cortez marine
In Memoriam
imagine
imagine
He writes;
I am afraid this really makes no sense to me what so ever. First of all IMAGINE a marine hobby where nearly every species of fish, invert, coral, etc was tank raised as opposed to wild caught...
Imagine....
Imagine theres no hunger....I wonder if you can...
Imagine all the people...living lives in peace....
etc.etc...
John Lennon
Dude,
"nearly every species...?"
The % of tank raised species in the trade is so small as to be regarded as a step in the right direction...but a step that is slowly approaching 2% of the fish species and 1 % of the inverts!
Corals are being fragged and farmed ...yes, and so are clams....but you're celebrating way before the trade gets anywhere near what you imagine.
Everyone wants it...business invests millions in it....and like the cure for cancer and muscular distrophy....its just not that real yet.
Steve
ps. Imagine ...yes....but in the meanwhile and in the next 20 years, people still have to eat!
imagine
He writes;
I am afraid this really makes no sense to me what so ever. First of all IMAGINE a marine hobby where nearly every species of fish, invert, coral, etc was tank raised as opposed to wild caught...
Imagine....
Imagine theres no hunger....I wonder if you can...
Imagine all the people...living lives in peace....
etc.etc...
John Lennon
Dude,
"nearly every species...?"
The % of tank raised species in the trade is so small as to be regarded as a step in the right direction...but a step that is slowly approaching 2% of the fish species and 1 % of the inverts!
Corals are being fragged and farmed ...yes, and so are clams....but you're celebrating way before the trade gets anywhere near what you imagine.
Everyone wants it...business invests millions in it....and like the cure for cancer and muscular distrophy....its just not that real yet.
Steve
ps. Imagine ...yes....but in the meanwhile and in the next 20 years, people still have to eat!
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