Responsibly wild caught vs. tank raised?

It seems to me there is a disconnect between a village in Bali and the hobbyists - the village doesn't sell to hobbyists, it sells to wholesalers. The system is not set up to deliver the ethical exporters product to the people who would actually care to buy it. Instead, those products have to compete for bottom line costs instead of value added costs.

I don't see a good way to deal with this issue. Steve? :D
 
Business short term mindset

Business short term mindset

Lefty,
Your right.
That disconnect has long prevented a more eco-friendly evolution in the trade. Business folks seem to think that the eco-driven theme is too weak to improve sales among retailers who in turn think its too weak to improve sales to hobbyists...so they settle for the image enhancement of semi conservation and P.R. statements like the MAC-donalds position on the environment.

Everyone wants netcaught imperator angels....few want them if they cost more.

Hobbyists who care may assume that they represent more buying power then they have ever delivered.
I really wish there would be an uprising of demand and demand for action to go with the puff and shallow eco-speak.
This is perhaps a false hope and thats why I really think the field reform approach is best.
Reform must be for tropical countries interests as we have a hard time reconciling our true long term interests vis a vis marinelife with our short term lusts.
Steve
PS. Business people can accelerate great changes if they will just do it...but....its rare to find any who would change a little behavior if it risked any uncertainty.
 
So far,
Tank raised fish are to the industry what backyard tomato growing is to feeding the nation.
Growing what is easiest...ie fish w/ large eggs and larvae is a far cry from growing what the trade would actually need to make any difference...ie culturing commercial quantities of tangs, butterflies, angels, wrasses, damsels, groupers, bats, anglers,triggers etc.
Then again is the elite pro-laboratory sector vs. the poor fisherman quandry.
Fisherman will do something with the sea. At least w/ tropicals we have a say and an input into it to moderate catch methods.

All cultured livestock [ a myth and impossibility in any readers lifetime ] will simply divert the fisherman into food fishing and probably greater impact on the reefs we say we wish to "save."
Funny way to pretend to save anything.
Cultured stuff is a placebo at best and a cheap deodorant in lieu of a shower.
It is something...but a foundation of the industry it is not.
Unlocking the secrets of micro-larval care and rearing have kept progress at a glacial pace and will not come in time to save anything.
The industry is clearly sustained by wildcaught livestock while cultured fishes progress far slower then reef destruction.
Steve
 
dah!

dah!

SeaSpza said:
Im not sure where you buy your fish but it has been my exparience that the tank raised are more expensive.

If you knew how hard it was to raise "tank raised", "tank bred" or "mariculturered" fish, then you'd know you were getting a bargin regardless of the cost.

As an informed hobbiest, I believe that the only real way to save the reefs from more distruction is make sure and demand that our lfs buys responsibly. Meaning that they only get net caught fish in. In this small way, we can support the collectors that are doing things the right way and don't/won't revert to cyanide to catch dinner or blasting the reefs for road construction materials.

WE AS A COLLECTIVE GROUP need to make our voices heard! But unfortunately, there are many among us who only care about how much that pretty little fishey is going to cost. They only care that the price is cheap. You see it everyday on this bb and on others, "where can I get ... cheap?" That's the problem.
 
I actually do know a thing or two about it and I dont mind the extra cost.I was just pointing out that the starter of this tread said that tank raised were cheaper and that is not the case.
 
Great thread. Lots of issues raised. I myself am leaving my job after christmas to work on an NPO. The puprose is to develop ecologically friendly and ecoonomical viable technologies and practices that can be applied in marine ornamenta aquaculture. The lessoned learned there can also be applied to conventional ffod aquaculture and other businesses. The bottom line is the bottom line. If it is not cheaper and more efficient to use an environmentally friendly alternative it will not be used on a wide scale. If captive cultured or responsibly aquacultured speciemens were available and cheaper people would buy them. Some may buy exclusively because something is captive bred. Most will buy because it is cheaper.
 
And we can't kid ourselves about inland coral growing. All the electricity, products, and water we use ( and waste) have an ecological impact. Hands down the hobby currently has an overall negative impact on the environment. How many resources did it take to grow that tank raised coral? Sure it wasn't collected from the ocean but the mercury in the bulb you used will make into the tuna you eat eventually.
However I feel what the hobby is doing now overall is beneficial in that we are bringning more awareness to the reefs. More people have a vested interest in them now than ever before. By using this awareness and switching to evironmentally friendly practices the impact can be switched to a positive one. The hobbyist is perhaps the most powerful player in all this as they can demand change and do things themselves at home. With enough time and energy put into this we can find ways to do these environmentally friendly alternatives easier and cheaper.
PLease check out
www.asaquaculture.org
 
reverse progress

reverse progress

Progress?
As the rate of progress is far , far slower then reef destruction...I surely don't get it.
This trade sidestepped the whole cyanide fish question for 25 years and went straight into pretentions of being reef friendly cause they frag a few fingers....for self benefit and interest.
None of the coral growing ...[ and crowing ] stems from an environmental ethic. It stems from a production ethic for better numbers and more controlled output.
To stand by mute...nay, to consume heartily cyanide fish that sprung from mature stands of aged coral for decades and only become born again as token acros get chopped to multiply profit...?
Puh..ease people!
Who are we fooling by trying to substitute pennies for dollars here?
The cyanide trade is still going strong and the only outcry and demand I heard as a wholesaler for 25 years was for cheaper fish...not sustainable ones.
Parroting deed-free Eco speak and touting chop-shop tokenism as evidence of change is mere wordsmithing for P.R. purposes.
Whos fooled by it other then newbies and MAC followers and outsiders?

I'd take an ounce of action over a pound of puff and platitudes anyday.

Steve
 
i think anyone interested in keeping a saltwater tank should start out with a 20 gallon full of neon tetras or some other sensitive fish. then they can add plants and try to keep them alive. the plants are much like corals because they need light, not as much but without lots of light the plants look ugly. keeping freshwater tanks will get the person into the "cycle" of checking the water conditions, feeding, and prepare them for that big saltwater tank.


i think that all collecting should be greatly regulated. more money should be put into captive breeding than collecting. how much money does 10,000 lb of cyanide (spelling?) cost? put that money into captive breeding. duh lol. it isnt impossible to breed the "impossible breeders" just takes lots of trial and error. someday i think all fish will be captive bred. price will probly remain super high as compared to freshwater fish. which will also keep the amatures out of the salt.

btw, i love freshwater fish as well. i have a 14 inch clown knife fish :D
 
IME, capitive bred or raised anything ( snakes, fish, lizards, birds, salamanders) are far superior to anything wild caught. The extra buck are well worth it, folks..

Matthew
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=5907022#post5907022 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by balci
Let's take what Mustafa said in the Lion King, that there's a circle of life and it will continue always, regardless of how much we take from the ocean, the ocean will always have more to give.

That is the most "head in the sand" statement I have ever heard.

Steve, is there a way for the hobbyist to find out wether the fish our LFS gets is cyanide caught or not?
 
What is the name of your company? I will recommend it to my LFS. They won't tell you who they use for fear you will side step them.
 
My thoughts are that regulations for collection should be set, net collection and limits so that fish are healthier and rare species will not be impacted due to over collection, and if species can be tank raised numbers taken through collection should be limited greatly as the need for wild caught is not needed. Just my opinion.
 
Zedx6,
All cultured livestock [ a myth and impossibility in any readers lifetime ] will simply divert the fisherman into food fishing and probably greater impact on the reefs we say we wish to "save."
Funny way to pretend to save anything.
Cultured stuff is a placebo at best and a cheap deodorant in lieu of a shower.
It is something...but a foundation of the industry it is not.
Unlocking the secrets of micro-larval care and rearing have kept progress at a glacial pace and will not come in time to save anything.
The industry is clearly sustained by wildcaught livestock while cultured fishes progress far slower then reef destruction.
Steve
 
I agree that the pace of development for aqua cultured fish is slow, but I do not think we should not continue to try and develope it, break throughs can occur in short periods of time with the way technology is advancing. The fact that there are reefs around the world makes it difficult to regulate especially in third world countries, I am sure they will continue to use cyanide and wholesalers will continue to buy those fish. I read that you were the one to call this out in the early 80's and have tried to train some of the collectors which is great but this is still going on 20+ years later, so what would you suggest we do as hobbyist?
 
Progress continues on the breeding front on its on momentum and incentive.
It inches forward at a glacial pace....too slow to save much reef at all.
Thats why the 500 or so that have been net-trained need to be enhanced.
The only thing that has held this back has been people. The funding was and is there....Its just that the people in charge don't know how to do it and never will.
They are simply not fisherman oriented field people and thats where all the action is.
They will write stories, grant proposals, survey data and the like, but they will not inspire divers to convert the way they are now.
This is not difficult for us commercial people to solve but its impossible for outsiders who covet the grant money and spend it unwisely
Steve.
Steve
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6380249#post6380249 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by gkarshens
What is the name of your company? I will recommend it to my LFS. They won't tell you who they use for fear you will side step them.

I know the suppliers of all my lfs and I ask which one/s they are ordering from that week. I've seen stuff dead in the bag coming out of FL and I don't buy it. I also know that stuff coming out of a particular wholesaler in Atlanta isn't that great either.

Being informed is being forwarned.
 
Back
Top