Rid-Ich+

[t5Nitro]

Yes, I will be adding the 5ml rid-ich+ to the QT water and then each day do an aerated, pH adjusted, freshwater dip for around 5 minutes.

I would have the tang in there already, but I don't have a filter for it. Waiting for any replies as to if bioballs or the porous ceramic rings would be good enough to throw in there and take them out and rinse off daily. Any tips appreciated.

 

[abulgin]

Many questions answered her.

1. Baking soda is to raise pH. It's almost impossible to overdose, so I wouldn't worry. Basically, baking soda is going to give you a pH of around 8 (depending on what your tap water is like).

2. Bioballs/ceramic beads will add surface area for bacteria, but they aren't very effective when submerged--these things do their work in a "wet-dry" arrangement--water pouring over them. The formalin, copper, etc. is going to kill most of your bacteria so you're better off monitoring ammonia and doing water changes than stessing out over whether you have a filter.

3. My original suggestion was hypo in the tote, with daily pH adjusted formalin tap water baths. The OP seems decided to treat his tote on a continuous basis. Although this can be done, as directed on the bottle, just know that formalin is highly toxic and you need to be prepared to watch the fish closley and do a 100 percent water change/run carbon or poly-filter if it starts to show ill effects. A better route may be to dose copper (chelated is generally deemed the safer route) but know that tangs may not always tolerate copper treatments. If it were me, I would go the hypo/formalin dip route. I would NOT both trat the tote with formalin and do freshwater dips. Too stressful--one or the other.

 

[t5Nitro]

Ok, so I will go with the hypo in tote (plus I can use my tote again) and then do formalin freshwater dips each day. Now, each day, how much should I lower the salinity to? 1.025 down to .... then repeat down to 1.09? Just need to know how much to lower each day.

Thanks again. I'm going to try and get this tang out now.

 

[abulgin]

Ugg I had this long message typed out and my handheld went dead.

Lower the SG over a 3 day period. Use a calibrated refractometer as plastic hydrometers are unreliable. If you're off one way or another, you will either kill your fish or fail to kill the ich. If you don't have one, at least go to your LFS and calibrate your plastic one by comparing their reading on a refractomer with your hydrometer.

You could also set the SG in your tote lower and acclimate your fish like you would a new purchase. This will cut down on the time it takes to get to 1.009.

Before you add the fish to the tote for the first time, do a formalin dip--this should kill the ich that's on its gills and buy you some time/give the fish immediate relief.

Good luck. Hope you learned from this that you need to quarantine all new arrivals for 4-6 weeks.

 

[t5Nitro]

The fish has been in the tote from this morning and have just now read this message, so I have not been able to give a Rid-Ich+ dip yet.

By the way, would fish live in a pH of 7.5? It seems like my water is running 7.5. Should I be putting in a 1ml of buffer at all? The kind I use for my 2 part for the display tank? Baking soda etc. So, basically you suggest I get the fish out and get him in a formalin dip now then? So if it's a gallon, i'd need 1/2ml of rid-ich+ in the gallon of tap water. Dechlorinate the water, add 1/4 tsp baking soda, dissolve it, and aerate the water with an airpump for a few minutes and then dip drop the fish in for 5 minutes? Then release back in tote and redo procedure the next day etc.

EDIT: Rechecked pH and it appears to be around 8.0 I guess. Must've done the first test wrong. Abulgin, I will get the freshwater started. Should I do this later tonight then? I will get a 1 gallon jug of tap water, dechlorinate it, 1/4 tsp baking soda dissolved in it, and put the airpump that's in the tote into that jug, add the .5ml rid-ich+ then add fish to jug and wait 5 minutes.

Is there any stress signs I should look for while I do a FW dip? I've never QT any fish before so this is brand new to me, especially a FW dip.

 

[kau_cinta_ku]

is there a reason for doing the dip and hypo besides stressing the fish even more by always moving it?

IMO just do the hypo method for all the fish, leave the main tank fishless for 6-8 weeks, QT all new fish, and your done.

 

[t5Nitro]

Ok :lol:

Just taking out water and replacing with RO/DI until salinity drops to 1.009 over 3 days then is all you do? I read somewhere to specifically watch pH during hypo treatments because it can go all out of whack. True or not?

In 10 gallons of 1.026sg water, is there an easy formula such as take out 1 gallon add 1 gallon RO/DI, or is it pretty much guess and check? Guess and check sounds more like a high chance for failure.

 

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13075910#post13075910 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kau_cinta_ku
is there a reason for doing the dip and hypo besides stressing the fish even more by always moving it?

IMO just do the hypo method for all the fish, leave the main tank fishless for 6-8 weeks, QT all new fish, and your done.

Yeah there is a reason. Hypo isn't guaranteed to kill ich. Formalin is. Giving the fish a bath will cause the fish's mucous coating to slough off, which will not only knock off external parasites but will also give access to any parasites that were under the mucous. Moreover, a dip gives the fish relief NOW--it's going to take 3 days or more to get the osmotic differential you need for hypo to even start working. Those 3 days could be the difference between a dead fish and a live fish. A 5 minute dip shouldn't stress the fish out too badly.

If you see the fish going nutz, like trying to jump out of the dip (some thrashing/moving is expected), then end the dip.

 

[t5Nitro]

Right now in the QT he is basically not freaking out at all. Just swimming around

I really don't have any extra buckets to dip the fish. Will a gallon milk jug work if I cut the top of it off? Will just have to put a net over the top so he can't jump out.

There needs to be no slow acclimation to the FW and back to the SW again, right?

Sorry, but have been confused and this is helping a lot! Soon I will have mastered the QT process :lol:

 

[t5Nitro]

The pH of the FW reads around 8.0 to 8.5 according to the pH test strips.

Now I will just float the gallon jug in the tank for 5 mins to get the temp good to go then stick in the air pump, put the fish in, and add .4ml rid-ich+ for 5 minutes. Thanks for the help abulgin!

 

[kau_cinta_ku]

actually, hypo if performed corectly will kill off ich.

 

[kau_cinta_ku]

from Steven Pro
"Low salinity has been demonstrated to be an effective treatment against Cryptocaryon irritans (Noga, 2000). A salt level of 16 ppt or approximately 1.009-1.010 specific gravity at 78-80*F for 14 days was reported to kill the parasite. I have never experienced problems when placing fish into a hyposalinity treatment, but have routinely witnessed fish showing obvious signs of distress when brought back to normal salinity levels too quickly. For that reason, I try to limit the specific gravity increase 0.001-0.002 points per day.

One of the alleged benefits of this treatment is the resulting conservation of energy for the affected fish. Reef fish have to constantly drink saltwater and excrete the salt to maintain the proper osmotic balance. Lowering the salinity of the surrounding environment eases this energy demand on the sick fish, thereby allowing them to expend more energy towards fighting the infection (Kollman, 1998 and Bartelme, 2001). On the contrary, keeping fish in low salinity means that they don't "flush" their kidneys sufficiently. After long-term exposure, this can cause kidney failure and kill the fish (Shimek, pers. comm..)

The drawbacks to this treatment are the same as for many of the treatment options discussed above. Invertebrates and certain fish will not be able to tolerate it, so you should not apply a hyposalinity treatment in a display tank. Sharks and rays are two fish groups that do not tolerate this procedure. I would also not recommend this approach in the presence of live rock or live sand. The hyposalinity treatment will likely kill the worms, crustaceans, mollusks, and other life in and on the substrate, causing a severe drop in overall water quality.

I have another word of caution when using this treatment. I would strongly suggest the use of a refractometer or perhaps a salinity monitor. Swing arm style box hydrometers are notoriously inaccurate. The glass, floating style hydrometers are better, but easily broken. An accurate measure of the salinity could mean the difference between being inside the effective treatment range or being too high and ineffective or too low and jeopardizing your fish.

Even given its few drawbacks, hyposalinity is a great method of curing infected fish of ich in a proper hospital tank. Of the treatment options discussed this far, in my opinion, it is by far the safest. While none of these options is appropriate for use in a display tank, and all have their drawbacks, weighing the pros and cons of each leads me to recommend hyposalinity above the others."

 

[kau_cinta_ku]

aslo from Pro about using formalin

I would like to remind readers of a few precautions regarding the use of formalin. First, it is a carcinogen. Formalin is an aqueous solution of carcinogenic formaldehyde gas, so gloves should be worn and the area should be well ventilated when using it. Secondly, formalin should not be used if fish have open sores, wounds, or lesions. It is likely to cause tissue damage to these open wounds. And lastly, formalin can rob the water of dissolved oxygen. That is why proper aeration is so crucial. For that reason, do not use formalin if the water temperature is 82*F or higher (Noga, 2000 and Michael, 2002).

 

[abulgin]

And I can find you 50 thoughts by other "noted" hobbyists that dispute Steven Pro's findings:

Just one example:

Re: crypto and hyposalinity 8/12/05
Dear Bob,
After reading extensively on hyposalinity and crypt, and, of course, with your help, I am reaching the conclusion that eradication of crypt from the marine system can only be achieved with QT and copper treatment and letting the display lie fallow for two months.
[There are a few other approaches... but none as assuredly successful]
I was somewhat enchanted by Steve Pro's recommendation that hyposalinity is his #1 choice because it is easy on the fish.
[... if only it worked]
I am beginning to realize that there is much controversy re: hyposalinity as a cure, but more often than not, the attestations as to its effectiveness are followed by reports of outbreaks 6-12 months later.
[Or generally much sooner]
I have a 180 g FO tank and I really want to do this right but I only have a 29g and 55g tanks set up as QT, neither of which have been cycled with copper so the addition of copper will disrupt the biological cycle of the tank/filter. What is the best way to treat with copper so as not to disrupt my bio cycle ?
[Minimal doses with a chelated formulation... twice daily testing... Bob Fenner]

There is no guaranty, so why not attack it on as many fronts as possible.

I have used formalin, in dips, for years and I've never lost a fish.

 

[kau_cinta_ku]

I will leave it up to the OP to decide what to do. I still am against running 2 diff. treatments at the same time stressing the fish even more.

 

[t5Nitro]

Wow, ok. Well, I used .4ml of Rid-Ich+ which contains 11.52% formalin I believe it said. Hopefully that doesn't harm me since I used it in my room where the windows are closed :lol:

Either way, the minute I put the tang in the freshwater he fell to the bottom and layed upside down the whole time. I wasn't sure if he'd pull through 4 minutes or not. Basically I ended up waiting 4 minutes out and then scurried to get the fish back into the QT tank. While doing so, I managed to dump maybe 1/2 gallon of the water with .4ml formalin onto the carpet. I used some 409 with a scrub brush, hopefully it won't stain But anyway, I got the fish back into the QT and he floated to the bottom and was upside down just like in the freshwater. I figured he would be gone shortly afterwards, but I kept watching his gills, and they continued moving. Since it was bugging me that he was upside down on the bottom, I took the air pump hose and nudged him to flip him rightside up. Anyway after failing since the water current kept knocking him back over, after about 3 nudges, he jumped up like crazy and "sprinted" over to the other side away from the air pump. Now he seems to be back to normal just sitting there flapping his fins, yet he looks REALLY blotchy after being in the FW. Is the "blotchiness" the cleared area, and the other portion ich covered or other parasites etc?

I seriously don't want to EVER do a FW dip again after seeing the initial part of it. Not only because the fish seemed to have died the instant it hit the water, but because of the small mess on the carpet by me hurrying :lol:

In either case, he seems alright. Now the net I used to fish him out of there was the one normally used in the display tank. I also had to use that net to get him out of the FW, formalin water. Because the net touched the water for maybe 10 seconds, does that mean I should not use it ever again in the display tank? I suppose better safe than sorry, but I'd figured I'd ask.

Same with the tote, I haven't dosed it with formalin directly, but maybe some fw formalin water hit the tote indirectly by the net, who knows?

Anyway, all in all, should I be using the tote and fish net again for the display tank or discontinue use of both?

Also, I think I'd be much happier running the Rid-Ich+ into the tote itself, and lessen the dose by half. This way it isn't so strong and easier on the fish, plus I can do water changes by using display tank water.

Let me know your thoughts on all of this, thanks!

 

[abulgin]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13076838#post13076838 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by kau_cinta_ku
I will leave it up to the OP to decide what to do. I still am against running 2 diff. treatments at the same time stressing the fish even more.

Maybe the happy medium is to do formalin dips until you get the water to 1.009 and then let the hypo do its magic.

OP--you just need to RELAX and take your time. It is perfectly normal for fish to go limp (or conversely go rigid) in a freshwater dip, formalin or not. This happens to me with every fish I dip. The first time this happened, I, like you, freaked, but after doing it enough I now know this is normal.

Rule of thumb is to keep separate everything between QT and display.

If you're going to use medication, use it as directed, not half dose. The directions/dosage is stated for a reason . . .

 

[teetimefun]

Was this fish in your main display?

 

[cloak]

Rid-Ich+, it's worked for me in freshwater tanks, don't see why it wouldn't work with salt.... Fifty gallon quarantine right? Directions on the bottle might tell you what to do.
My loaches don't have scales...

FWIW.

 

[kau_cinta_ku]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13078493#post13078493 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by cloak
Rid-Ich+, it's worked for me in freshwater tanks, don't see why it wouldn't work with salt.... Fifty gallon quarantine right? Directions on the bottle might tell you what to do.
My loaches don't have scales...

FWIW.

just so you know, FW ich is diff. than SW ich.