Rock "Cooking"--a dangerous trend or something worthwhile?

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Weatherman,

Try it...Im curious to see if you'll get stuff blowing out of them or not. I hate doing that and clouding my tank up. Like i said... I get one small pile of sand detritus and that is only when Im blowing it out. Otherwise mine would be clean, too. I would hate to assume that the rock was done shedding. I dont know... maybe the whole BB thing has got to me and Im being OVERLY anal about it.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6632802#post6632802 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Weatherman
The first question I'd ask is:

Are any of the various forms of calcium phosphate green?
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I don't know. I thought it was established that green skeletons meant phospate wicking from the rock?
 
sm fragman, how much die off do you think you get when you take the rock out of the water (cooking tub) and right into the tank? (out of water maybe 3 seconds)
 
i know but who really take it right out and direclty to the tank ? as soon as the rock hit the the air you have some die off from spunges and stuff like that
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6632827#post6632827 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ereefic
sm fragman, how much die off do you think you get when you take the rock out of the water (cooking tub) and right into the tank? (out of water maybe 3 seconds)
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:rolleyes: And we are rediculous for doing such a stupid thing like cooking rocks?

Why even bother defending the cooking thing anymore guys?Just do it if you want.I myself cant stand to read anymore about how it does nothing but kill everything and so on and bla,bla this and bla,bla that.Just let them feel like their smarter and superior to us.When people are hell bent to down play something to this degree there is nothing you or we can say to make them accept or understand this.They simpley refuse so why bother?I know I said this before but now I'm done with all this.

Stay tuned cookers to my thread if ya want to watch my progression from SSB and nasty "CURED ROCKS" to Starboard Bottom and Cooked L/R.Have a nice day:)
 
i am sorry i dont mean to make you mad or say cooking the rock is wrong ,i think either i am not saying what i am trying to get across right or you are not seeing where i am coming from ,i do believe there is somthihng behind shacking your rock off and getting the nasty stuff "loos stuff" off but you spent all this time killing any living stuff on the rock if you dont think that it will come back to life at some piont you are crazzy, i still say without proper maintanice you will get alge,,,look at it this way we are taking things from the wild and putting them in our take we are going to have problen sooner than later ,,i am sorry once angian i did not mean it that you are wrong ,,i have had my rock in the tub for about 8 weeks now and will put it in the tank in the next week ,,taking out and shakking it off of all loose styuff is a great i deal and should be done i just feel that new guys are being give fals hopes that this is the bible ,,,did i do better this time trying to say what i ment ,,i am not trying to start a war i feel alot of this is right.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6634173#post6634173 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by sm fragman
i am sorry i dont mean to make you mad or say cooking the rock is wrong ,i think either i am not saying what i am trying to get across right or you are not seeing where i am coming from ,i do believe there is somthihng behind shacking your rock off and getting the nasty stuff "loos stuff" off but you spent all this time killing any living stuff on the rock if you dont think that it will come back to life at some piont you are crazzy, i still say without proper maintanice you will get alge,,,look at it this way we are taking things from the wild and putting them in our take we are going to have problen sooner than later ,,i am sorry once angian i did not mean it that you are wrong ,,i have had my rock in the tub for about 8 weeks now and will put it in the tank in the next week ,,taking out and shakking it off of all loose styuff is a great i deal and should be done i just feel that new guys are being give fals hopes that this is the bible ,,,did i do better this time trying to say what i ment ,,i am not trying to start a war i feel alot of this is right.
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Ok I said I wasnt going to comment anymore about this but you have been more polite with that post than anyone I have read so far with regards to this.

In a nut shell what I am saying is that these rocks have been building up this crud or whatever one wants to call it for thousands of years on the rock itself.The cooking rids the rock of this build up by the bacteria eating it.

I dont and probably never will beleive that this build up on the rocks will come back in the fish tank environment.We can try as hard as we want and do all that husbandry an so on but the fish tank in ones living room can never simulte the environment under water in our natural reefs and oceans.

Yes I do beleive that many things will bond themselves to our Live Rock in our reef tanks but not anywhere near the extent it does in the wild.Especialy with the high flow that a BB system requires to be succesfull.

My cooking these rocks will clean them to the point that they will not shed in my tank like they did prior to me taking them out and cooking them.

My motives here are not that of excessive alge like some.It is because my tank was set up new and I cured the rocks in that new system.As a result the sand around the base of all my rocks became filled with detritus that couldnt make it through the water colomn and to the filter.Partialy because of the aquascape design I chose for my reef.Not to mention the fact I could baste my rocks three times a day if I chose and still get a tremendus amount of detritus in the water even after three months.These rocks were sheding like crazy.

I will go starboard when the rock is finished with its Prolonged Light Deprived Cureing or Cooking as its commonly known as.Thanx for the polite responce and for the record I wasnt speaking directly at you rather many others that seem to have a major chip on their shoulders over this procces wich I feel they dont fully understand yet feel so strongly to dissagree with and with a real bad attitude.Now I'm finished:D
 
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<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6632813#post6632813 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Ereefic
I don't know. I thought it was established that green skeletons meant phospate wicking from the rock?
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Any references on wicking would be appreciated. Green probably means algae growth, IMO, and doesn't necessarily indicate "wicking" at all.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6634891#post6634891 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by bertoni
Any references on wicking would be appreciated. Green probably means algae growth, IMO, and doesn't necessarily indicate "wicking" at all.
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Jonathon,

"Wicking" is a word that I made up (that I now regret). You won't find any references on it. I don't even recall where or when. The reason I regret it is because it sounds mechanical in nature or chemical. That is not the case at all.

If my memory serves, I was discussing that microalgaes and cyanobacteria live inside SPS corals too and some of it was from ingestion of the polyps and some of the phosphates were "wicked" into their skeletons. Bacteria go into SPS skeletons and they bring their phosphates with them. They can also get light because because most SPS epidermis is only 2 cells thick.
 
Boat Racer
thanks you for the post ,,i feel you are right one the money about getting that crub biuld up out of there after i have now shaken my rock off 2 time during the past 6 or so weeks to see what i got out of the rock man i tell you it i has all that stuff in my last tank no wonder i had trouble getting my nitrates down
 
I don't know. I thought it was established that green skeletons meant phospate wicking from the rock?

I've not seen any evidence that green coral skeletons means anything particular about phosphate.
 
Let's try to push this thread in a different direction and talk about Reef Chemistry.

I've tried to read through all the pages on this topic. I think my eyes started to bleed at one point :eek2:

While the idea of dark curing has been around for a very long time and so has dunking and swishing of the live rock, regardless of the curing process implemented by the hobbyist.

One must first ask, "What is the ultimate goal?" Rid the rock of bound up particulates that has built up over time and speed up the decay of soon to be dead organic matter? or is it something else?

So let's look at this from my limited knowledge of Reef Chemistry (well chemistry for that matter :) ) The dunking and swishing of live rock to help remove particulates that have been bound inside of the live rock.

Some of the posts have indicated that measuring the water from a dunked/swished rock revels an elevated level of PO4 using a hobby test kit. Hobby test kits can only measure inorganic phosphate or Orthophosphate compounds. I would suspect this to be normal, as the bound up particulates should contain high level of Orthophosphate compounds.

I believe that Orthophosphate compounds have very little to do with fueling algae growth as these can only be bound to metals and sand among other items and not taken up by organic matter.

What truly fuels algae growth is organic compounds. However, testing this can be expensive and only be derived from a reading of a total phosphate reading, where the organic ratio can be calculated if the levels of Orthophosphate compound is known. Hence where the hobby kit comes in.

If I'm not concerned with Orthophosphate compound, (they will always be present and always return to the rock) but with the organic portion. Wouldn't we want to measure that or have an understanding of the role organic phosphate plays in a closed system?
 
I believe that Orthophosphate compounds have very little to do with fueling algae growth as these can only be bound to metals and sand among other items and not taken up by organic matter.

Dissolved and particulate organic matter can be broken down to release orthophosphate, and bacteria and algae can take up orthophosphate. :)

If I'm not concerned with Orthophosphate compound, (they will always be present and always return to the rock) but with the organic portion. Wouldn't we want to measure that or have an understanding of the role organic phosphate plays in a closed system?

Maybe, but it is very complicated. Whole bacteria and phytoplankton will be detected as large amount of organic phosphate by such test kits as the Hach total phosphate kit. I don't know if it is desirable (from the standpoint of the health of most organisms in a reef aquarium) to have it low, high, or something in between.

What truly fuels algae growth is organic compounds.

What makes you think that?
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=6640895#post6640895 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by JerseyReef
I believe that Orthophosphate compounds have very little to do with fueling algae growth as these can only be bound to metals and sand among other items and not taken up by organic matter.

What truly fuels algae growth is organic compounds. However, testing this can be expensive and only be derived from a reading of a total phosphate reading, where the organic ratio can be calculated if the levels of Orthophosphate compound is known. Hence where the hobby kit comes in.

If I'm not concerned with Orthophosphate compound, (they will always be present and always return to the rock) but with the organic portion. Wouldn't we want to measure that or have an understanding of the role organic phosphate plays in a closed system?
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That's pretty much the opposite of what I believe. Isn't this hobby fun!!!;)
 
Mike

I believe that Orthophosphate compounds have very little to do with fueling algae growth as these can only be bound to metals and sand among other items and not taken up by organic matter.

Is this an error on your part ? I'm sure you know orthophosphate is easily picked you by many aquatic live forms and is the most common and preferred form. I'm not much of a believer in phosphate precip'ing out of water on to sand, aragonite, etc. as these are almost always covered with bacteria or organics, making it almost impossible.


Randy

What makes you think that?

I think Mike meant to say organic phosphate but that may include POM andf DOC. I would agree, as even in your own statement

Dissolved and particulate organic matter can be broken down to release orthophosphate, and bacteria and algae can take up orthophosphate

If there was a filter method to remove these there would be little orthophosphate to fuel the fire. And some forms of marine life can extract PO4 from organic phosphate, such as cyanobacteria.


Whole bacteria and phytoplankton will be detected as large amount of organic phosphate

I believe the HACH PO-24 uses a filter method so one can compare unfiltered and filtered samples, treating with perchloric acid. Bacteria would be an issue.
 
I was reading about the source of phosphate for reefs, and the conclusion was that it was mostly DIP (dissolved inorganic) or DOP (dissolved organic), but I've never seen a reference in which they've tracked down the ratio. That'd be pretty interesting. They ruled out POP (particulate).
 
Bertoni

A book I have Biological Oceanographic Processes by Parsons, Takahashi and Hargave goes into your question in great detail
 
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