Royal Gramma's

LesMelling

Registered Old Reefer
Continuing on my posts about keeping small fish in pairs or groups in large tanks.
This was a turn up for the books. Both newly introduced Royal Gramma's were out at the front of the tank today as if they have been in there months.they were put in my tank just 3 hours before . Could I get a pic or would they bolt before I could approach them to take a pic? well here is my answer, Both RGs out swimming together and never flinched as I took this pic.

20160604_200401_zpszq16a7wg.jpg
 
How did you get so lucky to pick up a pair? And, who is that georgeous yellow fish in the right hand corner?

polaravic
 
How did you get so lucky to pick up a pair? And, who is that georgeous yellow fish in the right hand corner?

polaravic

I can't be certain they are a true pair. The shop had 6 each in a different tank. I studied them for a while and chose a larger one with a slightly deeper body than the next one I chose which was a little smaller and slimmer in all my years keeping marines I have managed to obtain 3 pairs picking Royal Grammas this way.
 
There is no luck required if you get small enough specimen. The dominant will become the male and the next in hierarchy the female.
I did this with 3 and after some initial squabble they got along. 18 months later they are still all doing fine, though currently I only see them during feedings.
 
There is no luck required if you get small enough specimen. The dominant will become the male and the next in hierarchy the female.
I did this with 3 and after some initial squabble they got along. 18 months later they are still all doing fine, though currently I only see them during feedings.

I was told some time ago by an "expert" in such that RGs are born into a sex and don't change. I always suspected that was false. I don't know I only know what I do to try and get a pair has always resulted in a true pair so who knows.
 
Well, after some further research it seems that they do not change sex later in life, but rather that the sex is set early in their development:
Bisexual Juvenile Gonad and Gonochorism in the Fairy Basslet, Gramma loreto

Still, the approach of getting a larger group of small individuals should generally result in pairs/harem groups.

From first hand experience, I beg to differ from the above article. Royal Gramma are dimorphic and they are protogynous hermaphrodites.
Males different than females, but just supple only. Unless we know what we are looking for, we will not notice it. The pelvic fins are longer in males than in females. Also males have more purple and less yellow than females.
Here is a picture to demonstrate this in my tank. Sorry I do not have close up pictures that demonstrate the length differences of the pelvic fins.
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The female will change sex first, the color change and the elongation of the pectoral fins come a few weeks later.

I know first hand that Royal Gramma change from female to male. This happen in my tank. More than 10 years ago, I keep a harem of Royal Gramma in my 450 gal tank. I think there were 6 of them total. I had them in a stable harem for many years. At about 4 years or so, my Male become weak and old. He had some sort of scale disease where the scale raised and some fell off. Because he was weaken, the largest female change sex and promptly killed him. He was not able to hide from the new male in a 450 gal tank full of rock. A month or so later, the coloration change is complete. There was a full chromatically male in my tank again.

The best way to get a harem of Royal Gramma is have the LFS order them for you but put them together on arrival. If they keep the RG together as a group, there will be only one male. Singleton will change sex quickly. I have not tried, but from reports of many people who put two RG together and end up will only one due to fighting, I suspect that they change sex quickly, in the mater of days if not suppressed by a male. Royal Gramma are docile fish, have more of a bark than bite. They displayed a lot to other intruders to their space, but I have never actually observed the biting any fish. The only time where there is fighting is when we put to male together. Their fight is every bit as aggressive as two fighting beta fish. They circle each other torn at each others fins, lock jawed and everything. (As a child in Vietnam, I often observed Beta fighting fish matches). I have the unfortunate experience of seen my new male kill my old male and cannot do anything about it. Getting a rock dweller like RG out of a 450 gal in wall tank is close to impossible. Trapping is the only way, other than remove all the rock. Neither of my males have any inclination of doing anything other than killing each other. I expect this was the reason Royal Gramma have an undeserved reputation of being an aggressive fish, and that they should be keep as a singleton in a tank.

The authors of the article reference above does not even know that Royal Gramma are dimorphic, evidence that they are not too familiar with this species, despise mention in their report that they removed the male from the population and no evidence of a new male developed after 5 months. I am sure that this is an example of sloppy research that come up with wrong conclusion. Just because an article got published in a scientific journal doe snot guarantee that it is all proper research, and that the conclusion the authors come up with is accurate.
 
Les,
I would love it if you keep us update in a few months.

I suspect that wholesalers keep Royal Gramma together in a tank. They do well together. Only at LFS, they change sex and become all male when leave single in each tank. That is why when we put two together in our tank, they fight so much and only one survive. I have never visit wholesalers. Anybody here can confirm how they keep RG in wholesale tanks?
 
That's why I bought my 3 the same day that they arrived at the store.

As for that article - I was kind of surprised about their findings as my experience is not necessarily supporting it. I never had a functional female change sex, but putting juveniles together always resulted in pairs. Before that I put pairs together by selecting males and females. If you have enough selection this is easy to.
The things about that article that don't add up to me are the sex ratio and what happens to the harem when the male is removed.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 
I was told some time ago by an "expert" in such that RGs are born into a sex and don't change. I always suspected that was false. I don't know I only know what I do to try and get a pair has always resulted in a true pair so who knows.
I have learned a long time ago not to blindly trust someone all the time (regarding reef informations). There are people on the board that I trust much more than other, but never 100%. There are too many thing to know and we cannot know everything. We know what we know. This can be a lot for some of us, but there are still a lot that we don't know, certainly more we don't know than we do.

Like ThRoewer, I obtain a group when they first arrive at the store. Often I tried to get the smallest ones. I like for them to grow in my tank. I never fail in getting a harem in my tank.

Even though RG are dimorphic, this does not help us in choosing males from females because often at the LFS, we get males that are not chromatically-male yet.
 
I have tried harems several times, I always end up with just 2. I have given up on the harem concept for grammas.
 
You should try again with the above information. That is if you did not know about these before.

Minh - Actually, the last time I tried I did it based on your advice. I brought them in as a group of 6, did not allow the store to separate them. They were very small.

After going in my tank, they stayed a group of 6 for a while, all in the same rocks. They had an 8' tank to explore, but they all stayed together in the same 2' of space. Never saw much aggression, but then there were 5. Then 4. And so on, now down to 2 over a year-long + time period.

So I am not sure what I could do differently. I had the exact same result as the previous time I tried, they whittled down to 2.

That's OK, though, I like my 2.
 
Strange.
In my 8 foot aquarium, they are all spread through out. Several on one end , several on the other end but the male is in the middle. He would courts all the ladies and try to entice them to go into his den.
I feed twice a day, I get 1 lb flat pack of frozen food (mysis or plankton). I feed about 2 square inches of this food (about between 1/2-1/4 inches think) thawed out in RO water. I added a heaping teaspoon of a mixture of flakes in it. Stirred it all up and dump it into the high flow area of my tank. Food is just everywhere for about 15 mins before the fish clean them all out. Plenty of food for all. The Royal Gramma have their fill twice a day.
 
Well my 2 are getting on just fine and I have seen one nest building deep in the rock work. He/she taking out pieces of coral gravel from somewhere within my reefscape. They are never mire than around 18" from one another when out and apart from some mouth gaping and posturing there is nothing in the way of aggression even with other small fish in my 100 gallon. Maybe I should do a vid of them and post it up on here
 
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