Ruby Red Dragonet Breeding Journal
- Thread starter kizanne
- Start date
kizanne
Member
Ok, so don't judge me....
I was looking around at my little copepod populations (most are in shoe boxes) some are in little cups because I'm currently siphoning out of my hubbies over stocked tank and I had some I got to top off my larva cup. Well I found a small plastic cup that I had from around the second spawn that I thought just had some copepods in it that I was feeding what little algae I had to so that they would multiply to top off the larve cup. Long story Long there are like 5 larva in there of unknown age. I think they are slightly older based on my vague knowledge of this cup and they are darker and 'healthier' looking.
So now what do I do with them?
I'm afraid to test the water (but I need to) because how do you suck up 5 ml to test out of maybe 4 ounces without sucking up larva or copepods?
Anyways, I was so excited (mostly because I think they are older by one to two days but also because now I have 5 more surviving larva) I had to come and post. Now back to some kind of maintenance of my pods and tanks.
I wish I could take pictures without hurting them.
I was looking around at my little copepod populations (most are in shoe boxes) some are in little cups because I'm currently siphoning out of my hubbies over stocked tank and I had some I got to top off my larva cup. Well I found a small plastic cup that I had from around the second spawn that I thought just had some copepods in it that I was feeding what little algae I had to so that they would multiply to top off the larve cup. Long story Long there are like 5 larva in there of unknown age. I think they are slightly older based on my vague knowledge of this cup and they are darker and 'healthier' looking.
So now what do I do with them?
I'm afraid to test the water (but I need to) because how do you suck up 5 ml to test out of maybe 4 ounces without sucking up larva or copepods?
Anyways, I was so excited (mostly because I think they are older by one to two days but also because now I have 5 more surviving larva) I had to come and post. Now back to some kind of maintenance of my pods and tanks.
I wish I could take pictures without hurting them.
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kizanne
Member
So still have larva this morning. Could use your help.
I have a series of pictures and some questions.
Question 1. What circle do you think is the stomach, A, B, C?
Question 2. Is it empty? (might be ok because this is first thing in the morning.
Question 3. With the mouth size and the copepod size do you think they can eat it yet?
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I have a series of pictures and some questions.
Question 1. What circle do you think is the stomach, A, B, C?
Question 2. Is it empty? (might be ok because this is first thing in the morning.
Question 3. With the mouth size and the copepod size do you think they can eat it yet?
ichthyogeek
New member
Not an expert but here goes:
It's either circle A or B, since circle C is too far back. I tried imagining where each circle would be approximately once the fish was an adult, and my mind is favoring B.
That being said, I see no food in the cell. Probably okay due to it being first light. Later on though, I'd suggest getting it back to see if it's eating or not.
The copepod is approximately half the size of the fish' mouth at this point....so maybe. I don't know where, but I read something about prey being 1/20th the size of the fish' mouth being the most commonly eaten prey...but for the life of me, I don't know where I read that...
It's either circle A or B, since circle C is too far back. I tried imagining where each circle would be approximately once the fish was an adult, and my mind is favoring B.
That being said, I see no food in the cell. Probably okay due to it being first light. Later on though, I'd suggest getting it back to see if it's eating or not.
The copepod is approximately half the size of the fish' mouth at this point....so maybe. I don't know where, but I read something about prey being 1/20th the size of the fish' mouth being the most commonly eaten prey...but for the life of me, I don't know where I read that...
kizanne
Member
So I know that this goes against the published literature.... But I swear I have two small red things at the bottom of my larva cup that look suspiciously like fish. It might be that ruby reds meta at 7 days? Mandarins are 12-14 days and scooters are 20 days. I have some larva in the cup that aren't red and don't look good. The second cup that is one day behind has a larva that is getting darker and is at the bottom all of the time hunting. The two red items are at the bottom of the cup also. How does one officially determine settlement? Metamorphosis? I'm going to keep an eye on them because they look like fish so me and hubby but there was shrimp or crab larva released the same day that might be in there. Also one of the larva appears to be choking on a clump of algae. I don't see anyway to get a picture of this and I'm not taking them out of the cup.
Upon some research it appears this is normal (for a mandarin couldn't find Ruby Reds) and is the beginning of metamorphosis. They are beginning to lose their finfolds and gain some color. I can see side fins. But they are still larvae. I have some that haven't started this process yet and don't look good. I hope they are just lagging behind.
Upon some research it appears this is normal (for a mandarin couldn't find Ruby Reds) and is the beginning of metamorphosis. They are beginning to lose their finfolds and gain some color. I can see side fins. But they are still larvae. I have some that haven't started this process yet and don't look good. I hope they are just lagging behind.
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kizanne
Member
Spawn #4(5/16) tonight. I have them in a cup to hatch. I already have ideas of how to do this a little differently. And I have some fresh pure algae.
Spawn #2(5/9) still has maybe 4 larvae with 2 looking good and 2 not so good.
Spawn #3 (5/10) I was only able to find one good looking larvae and 1 not so good.
My husband says the Ruby Reds are very considerate. Spawning regularly at 9 pm on the weekend. LOL
Spawn #2(5/9) still has maybe 4 larvae with 2 looking good and 2 not so good.
Spawn #3 (5/10) I was only able to find one good looking larvae and 1 not so good.
My husband says the Ruby Reds are very considerate. Spawning regularly at 9 pm on the weekend. LOL
kizanne
Member
Spawn #2 and #3 seem to be dead. I will look again tonight for any larvae. I found one body. Here are pictures. This is from Spawn #2 so made it to 6 days post hatch. I think it wasn't finding enough to eat maybe.
Spawn #4 has some early hatchers out now. This evening I'll be moving them to more permanent housing.
Spawn #4 has some early hatchers out now. This evening I'll be moving them to more permanent housing.
kizanne
Member
So here are some shots of 'the set-up'
It is a 30 gallon tank It has a large live rock in it. A live rock covered in zoas. A few other rocks. A PVC frag holder that has hair algae. I cleaned off the front glass of most of the coraline algae. The hair algae grows amphipods really well and the areas that get low flow have clouds of copepods.
I raise copepods in shoe boxes and drink bottoms.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/album.php?albumid=10065
This is a link to the album with the shots
It is a 30 gallon tank It has a large live rock in it. A live rock covered in zoas. A few other rocks. A PVC frag holder that has hair algae. I cleaned off the front glass of most of the coraline algae. The hair algae grows amphipods really well and the areas that get low flow have clouds of copepods.
I raise copepods in shoe boxes and drink bottoms.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/album.php?albumid=10065
This is a link to the album with the shots
kizanne
Member
Spawn #5 happened 5/17 and for more careless reasons #4 and #5 will be combined to be called #5, I have some larvae that hatched from 4 and #5 is hatching tonight (most likely)
Spawn #6 happened 5/18 (tonight)
Also tonight I found shrimp zoa in the top of the tank which look more than one day old. So I scooped a few up (they should be glass shrimp).
In the Mandarin tank I had a crab spawn, I threw a couple in my plankton tank but left the rest for the Mandies. The male seemed to be picking them off the surface. The female is getting fat again (she had decreased I think I missed a spawn).
So for those keeping up.. Spawn 1, 2 and 3 are dead with #2 making it to 7 days post hatch.
Spawn #4 and 5 are in the same jar and I've added some t-iso and tetra
Spawn #6 is in a cup waiting to hatch
Shrimp spawn in a cup with tetra, t-iso, dun and chlorella tomorrow will add a few psuedo copepods and maybe some dead baby brine to see if the attack it.
LOL more spawn then I know what to do with but it will give me a chance to play around. I think I might throw a few in my psuedo breeding box and see what happens, though don't want to hurt my breeding population.
Spawn #6 happened 5/18 (tonight)
Also tonight I found shrimp zoa in the top of the tank which look more than one day old. So I scooped a few up (they should be glass shrimp).
In the Mandarin tank I had a crab spawn, I threw a couple in my plankton tank but left the rest for the Mandies. The male seemed to be picking them off the surface. The female is getting fat again (she had decreased I think I missed a spawn).
So for those keeping up.. Spawn 1, 2 and 3 are dead with #2 making it to 7 days post hatch.
Spawn #4 and 5 are in the same jar and I've added some t-iso and tetra
Spawn #6 is in a cup waiting to hatch
Shrimp spawn in a cup with tetra, t-iso, dun and chlorella tomorrow will add a few psuedo copepods and maybe some dead baby brine to see if the attack it.
LOL more spawn then I know what to do with but it will give me a chance to play around. I think I might throw a few in my psuedo breeding box and see what happens, though don't want to hurt my breeding population.
kizanne
Member
Spawn #5 still has several larvae alive. The copepods I put in there seem to be greatly diminished thought I can't say any look like they have eaten. They are in a large glass jar with T-iso, Tetra, and psuedo copepods.
Spawn #6 hatched added to a cup with copepods, rotifers, iso and tetra left from spawn #2.
Spawn #7 (5/19) I missed collecting eggs when they were all together so I have a few eggs and some shrimp zoa together. Don't expect this to go anywhere except for the shrimp maybe.
I also am now leaving my algae (and larvae) rack light on 24 hours so the algae can act as a filter and not have a oxygen drop at night.
They are spawning very regularly so I'll be trying different things. If I can get my T-iso and tetra built up then I may order a large batch of parvocalanus from Reed Mariculture and put in a 10 gallon tank with a few larvae.
Spawn #6 hatched added to a cup with copepods, rotifers, iso and tetra left from spawn #2.
Spawn #7 (5/19) I missed collecting eggs when they were all together so I have a few eggs and some shrimp zoa together. Don't expect this to go anywhere except for the shrimp maybe.
I also am now leaving my algae (and larvae) rack light on 24 hours so the algae can act as a filter and not have a oxygen drop at night.
They are spawning very regularly so I'll be trying different things. If I can get my T-iso and tetra built up then I may order a large batch of parvocalanus from Reed Mariculture and put in a 10 gallon tank with a few larvae.
kizanne
Member
Well I have nothing but larva now as my Spawn #7 has hatched. I have little cups of larva everywhere. I have some that appear to definately be from Spawn #4 because they are in the same cups as Spawn #5 and you can see a difference between the two in development. So we are at 3.5 days post hatch. I can see some of them moving like they are hunting but I think I am really going to need smaller food.
gogo7
pico reefer
hey kiz. have you tried ciliates? if you've got rotis, or pods setup, you've probably got ciliates. swimming in the sludge. try some under the scope and look for things that might fit in the mouths of the larvae.
i took yours and luis' advice. glad i did. i setup a separate 1.5 litre container. no air, no heater. temp around 76'. sparingly fed ciliates. put about a dozen in there and they're still alive. lost the rest in the rv just passed 32 hrs.
i like your cup idea. i'm gonna use it for the next clutch. it seems to work better. what temps are you keeping them at?
kizanne
Member
Gogo7 I wish I had your cultures going or to have the discipline to keep mine going well.
And I certainly wouldn't call my cups a model. They are mostly a by-product of not being prepared, laziness and being overwhelmed. I do hope to come up a simpler system then feeding 5 times daily (delusional I know).
Spawn #8(5/21)
You can shorten it by skipping to the bold part.
So I have what I call a plankton tank. In reality it is a 65 gallon tank that was my quarantine tank and when I was done with it I through in some Nanno then later some rotifers. Of course that was a bad Idea it only took about 4-6 weeks for the rotifers to out produce the nanno. So it crashed. Eventually the nanno came back. I expected the rotifers would come back and it would be a crash cycle unless I actively managed the rots (which isn't likely to happen). The salinity cycles up and down and the tank only has an airstone and light, no filter. But to my surprise the rotifers didn't come back. I started just throwing things in like tisbe pods, parvo pods, amphipods, pistol shrimp larvae, glass shrimp lavae, crab larvae. On the glass, I can see what my hubby says are munid isopods(good), maybe amphipods. So out of desperation for some smaller food I sucked up some detris off the bottom. While the life isn't as dense as I would like I was excited to find many small moving things (wish I could identify them all) and I also found some tisbe copepods.
So Spawn 4/5 are the 'oldest' still alive. They have reached 4 days post hatch. I have them in a 1/2 gallon mason jar with tetra/iso and psuedo copepods. Though the pods seem to be too big they also seem to be getting less but they didn't seem to be 'hunting' as much. I sucked some liquid out to make room for more. In the process I ended up sucking up a few larvae. I put in several milliliters of detritus from the plankton tank in. I noticed what seemed to be an increased hunting response. I still can't tell if any of the larvae are eating but they seem to like it.
As far as temp. The eggs in plastic cups get put in the parent tank which is around 78 degrees, the others are at room temp which my house is set at 77 degrees but the room might get a little warmer with all the tanks in there and a bay window (which is why it is also the orchid room)
I have enough larvae now that if they are alive this weekend I'll sacrifice one to the scope.
And I certainly wouldn't call my cups a model. They are mostly a by-product of not being prepared, laziness and being overwhelmed. I do hope to come up a simpler system then feeding 5 times daily (delusional I know).
Spawn #8(5/21)
You can shorten it by skipping to the bold part.
So I have what I call a plankton tank. In reality it is a 65 gallon tank that was my quarantine tank and when I was done with it I through in some Nanno then later some rotifers. Of course that was a bad Idea it only took about 4-6 weeks for the rotifers to out produce the nanno. So it crashed. Eventually the nanno came back. I expected the rotifers would come back and it would be a crash cycle unless I actively managed the rots (which isn't likely to happen). The salinity cycles up and down and the tank only has an airstone and light, no filter. But to my surprise the rotifers didn't come back. I started just throwing things in like tisbe pods, parvo pods, amphipods, pistol shrimp larvae, glass shrimp lavae, crab larvae. On the glass, I can see what my hubby says are munid isopods(good), maybe amphipods. So out of desperation for some smaller food I sucked up some detris off the bottom. While the life isn't as dense as I would like I was excited to find many small moving things (wish I could identify them all) and I also found some tisbe copepods.
So Spawn 4/5 are the 'oldest' still alive. They have reached 4 days post hatch. I have them in a 1/2 gallon mason jar with tetra/iso and psuedo copepods. Though the pods seem to be too big they also seem to be getting less but they didn't seem to be 'hunting' as much. I sucked some liquid out to make room for more. In the process I ended up sucking up a few larvae. I put in several milliliters of detritus from the plankton tank in. I noticed what seemed to be an increased hunting response. I still can't tell if any of the larvae are eating but they seem to like it.
As far as temp. The eggs in plastic cups get put in the parent tank which is around 78 degrees, the others are at room temp which my house is set at 77 degrees but the room might get a little warmer with all the tanks in there and a bay window (which is why it is also the orchid room)
I have enough larvae now that if they are alive this weekend I'll sacrifice one to the scope.
kizanne
Member
4.5 days. The larvae seemed more docile this morning so I added a few more milliliters of detritus this morning. The only problem with the detritus (other than ammonia) is that the algae base is nano. The parvo and psuedo copepods as well as the larvae like tetra and T-iso (because they are motile and easier to digest) so my green water will eventually change over to nano. I'll have to figure out how to manage this if they live. And of course I really need to break the plankton tank down and start over with a tetra tank. Though I'm feeling like that tank might be a better mandarin tank because it is taller. And of course pipefish and maybe Kuda's LOL>
kizanne
Member
Well he's eating the ocean reef nano pellets really well. I'm trying to give him soaked pellets 2x daily, and of course he eats the brine. I am hoping with the enriched pellets he'll be conditioned enough to spawn. Him and the female are behaving more like a pair now then last week. Last week he would chase her and she would have none of it. This week the are swimming together but I'm not seeing ascending. If I was any closer I'd drive him to you. I really want some mandarin eggs but I can't bring myself to just trade him in. I think I missed a spawn though be cause her belly has deflated this week. Last two spawns I don't think were fertile though. I have been feeling like they are going to spawn in the next week or two when all of my resources are stretched trying to work with the ruby reds. And of course my bangaai male has made it to day 5 (which is his longest hold). The Mandarin is the sweetest little boy and he would make a great addition for someone who wants a mandarin that only has to be fed 2x daily and eats other than live food.
Kizanne I sure hope he works out for you as a breeder. They are wonderful. And I would not want to trade him in either if I were you. I am setting up a 140 gallon with a sump soon. I have mine in a 65 gallon as of now. I hatch new brine shrimp daily to feed them in one of Pauls feeders. I am going to seed my new sump with tons of pods. I try to let them feed as naturally as possible.
Are you sure you do not want to make a trip out to see Yellow Stone.
I sure hope by feeding him the enriched pellets he and the female spawn. Maybe if you set up a feeder?
Shelley
Are you sure you do not want to make a trip out to see Yellow Stone.
I sure hope by feeding him the enriched pellets he and the female spawn. Maybe if you set up a feeder?Shelley
