Ruby Red Dragonet Breeding Journal

Ok so maybe a problem.

In cup/tank 4 I had you know left overs and everything else in there. Well I found this all over the glass today and I don't know it just doesn't feel like a good worm. Anyone know what it is?

Heres a picture and then a link to a short video (7 sec) so you can see the movement.

picture.php


video
http://youtu.be/m7zlZAIFaJs
 
not sure what they are either. i think they're nematodes. although, with my unscientific experience, if it has hairs, (cilia), it's euglenia... i think.

remember when you first discovered the reef hobby and the amount of different animals seemed to be mind boggling?
this world of little things is even more mind boggling.

i really like the video and the pics kiz.
 
Well small update.

Cup 2 has 3 larva at least left and they are looking fairly good. They have eyes they are moving around appear to be hunting actively an have some color to them.

Unfortunately none of the other cups seem to have anything in them. cup 4,5,and 6 are hard to tell due to size and other stuff in them.

So 3.5 dph and we are looking ok. I need to try to change out some water in cup 2 as it is a small cup and has rotifers in the mix so the ammonia is probably getting high.

Martyn, I have it on good authority they are not nematodes. I thought I had narrowed them down to nematodes specifically Mononchus. I emailed a Ph.d at Rutgers who does Mononchus (a nematode). He said he doesn't know what they are but he says he's certain they are nematodes. So I don't even know where to begin. I would like to know where they came from and what they are because that was Olive's quarantine tank/water and I worry they might be some kind of intestinal parasite. Once she is doing much better I'll probably does her with prazipro or something to knock it out. But right now she still very skinny.
 
Well I bravely changed their cup of water today. I put 2/3 full of new water with a mix of algae, nano, tetra, dun. I sucked the bottom ring to get as many copepods as possible and left many of the rotifers behind and got rid of the brine shrimp. Unfortunately, I wanted to densify the copepods so I sucked from another copepod cup and forgot there is also crab larva in that cup so now I have a few crab larva in there. Obviously there are still rotifers but the density is less. I used a 1/8 of a teaspoon to spoon the larva into the new cup at the end. The larva seem to look good. Behind their head indents and then their belly is wider, so I think they are eating something but I didn't put them under the microscope because I don't want to stress them too much since I only have 4.

RANT: I ordered pure tetra but they shipped this slush so that is what I'm using since I haven't gotten my tetra back up and running. The transfer water has nano anyway so it will eventually take over (except the rotifers will eat it all).

I also put a little ocean pearls (5-50 micron) in there as well for copepod feed and the hope that larva might get a taste for it. I seem to have two different types of copepods one I'm sure is a harp. tisbe the other not so sure. At least one of the copepods almost seem to attack the larva when they drift near the bottom (which they seem to be trying to eat stuff on the bottom). The copepods are very dense and many female with eggs. I think the fish larva may be eating rotifer babies. They certainly don't seem to be able to eat the adult rotifers.

It is now officially 4 dph which is the accepted starvation time period that I've read. So they must be eating something. I feel pretty good about this one. I have a high density copepod and the rots are going.

I was actually wishing they'd throw me another batch so I can try variation on Cup 2. And have an excuse to order a bunch of copepods from Reed though I'd need actually tetra for that.
 
Oh and I swooped in with a bag of money and bought a bonded pair of Coral Crouchers off Divers Den this week. (maniacal laugh) there is no stopping me. But that thread will be at least 6 months off most likely.
 
Kizanne throw me some of that money. I am sure I could find something on Divers Den also. Truthfully I am cutting sod with a flat shovel. I need to get ready to pour some concrete for my concrete table and benches. I would much rather be playing with larvae and pods. Hoping that they keep thriving for you.

Shelley
 
Well,

I think tisbe pods maybe a danger to small larva. I have seen several on my larva and now some of the larva has disappeared. I think tisbe maybe good if you strain out the babies but the adults may actually kill larva. I've noticed this jumping on thing several times. I have some tetra on order and I'll try to get parvo's going again as they seem to be smaller and less aggressive for a copepod.

I do have a larva left alive that I took out of the cup full of pods and put in the 'old cup' because he was on the bottom being jumped on by pods.

Ironic huh
 
I had one larva left. Did water change and it died. I don't know if it was time or if the change was too dramatic. I tried to get it on a slide and somehow lost the body. They are very tiny. Hopefully my adults will give me a new batch to play with soon.

The girls sure look ready. I'll do a water change tomorrow and that usually does it for them.

6 dhp that isn't a record but they are eating something. Maybe I'll do a starvation test with the next batch to verify what that is for ruby reds.
 
Kiz just as a question from someone who hopes to keep a Mandarin or dragonet one day, how did you build the tanks so that they can support multiple dragonets
 
Now you are really leaving my area of expertise. In my opinion, far from expert opinion,
the biggest thing that kills off dragonets is not getting enough food. So I'd say build your tank to be mandarin friendly. This could take multiple approaches.

Approaches. Listed in my personal favorite order)
1. get your dragonet eating non-live food and make sure you have way to feed where they have a chance of getting it. This could be a large mixed tank that is over-fed by most standards and the pumps off for at least 30 minutes so they have a chance to get some (also squirting food in more than one place, one by them and two in other places to attract the tangs LOL) (my 125 mixed reef tank). This could also be a smaller specialty tank that they are they only thing in the tank (my 30 gallon ruby red) Note this can be combined with approach 4 (my personal approachis a combination of 1, 3 and 4 when I get the time I'll probably add number 2 in).

2. You get them used to a feeder and make sure you have a spot in your tank for a feeder (this can be non-live food or live food). Build your rock where you can hide your feeder if you care. there is a pellet diner and a live brine feeder that both work great. google mandarin diner and paul B's feeder.

3. Spend money and or time. This approach can work well if you have the money. For about $50 you can get many, many amphipods shipped to you. Your fish will love you. Depending on your rock work and other parameters, you'd need this every 2-4 weeks. (Not my favorite approach but I like it better than approach 4). You can also cultivate copepods if you are will to run live cultures in containers outside your tank, takes time and an initial investment.

4. Depends solely on you tank to produce the food. This is the approach often espoused by the elite commenters. This means you have a very large tank with lots of rock work that you let age for 6 months to a year and if you are lucky you can keep one mandarin. The upside is you don't have to bother to train your mandarin onto other foods and they won't starve. The downside you need 90+ gallons and lots of wait time for 1 Mandarin. so you'd need more than that for multiple dragonets.

This is my own opinion so please don't take it as fact but weigh my arguments for your self.

I believe that shortly after you cycle your tank you could support multiple mandarins if you follow these simple beliefs....

1. Fish are healthier if they eat. You are responsible for them eating.
2. Mandarins eat copepods, amphipods, not harmful isopods, ostricods, (mine have even eaten white flatworms) naturally.
3. They can be trained to eat live brine, frozen brine, pellets and I've heard frozen mysid but never seen it in my 7.

So for several of my tanks I have...
1. purchased tisbe pods and start a culture. Their life cycle is relatively short though lots longer than rotifers. They get to sexual maturity at 6 days and have a generational cycle of 11-18 days. So babies start having babies..... Tisbe's are detritus eaters and so you don't have to have live algae you can use flake food, yeast what have you. I put them in pop bottles and plastic shoe boxes. Do this step early.

2. Cycle your tank. Make sure it is cycled. This is 10 days to 6 weeks. Make sure you have nice rock work. I'd recommend some macro algae like chaeto or caulerpa (though not necessary). Some rubble piles at the base of your rocks.

3. Seed your tank with 50% or more of your copepods you been growing. Spring for some amphipods and seed the tank with all but 50. You can culture amphipods but I've found them harder to culture separately than copepods. They do grow well in the tank.

4. buy your dragonets. Keep them in small quarantine containers (or large but by themselves) if they are skinny (most of the ones you find in LFS are) feed them live amphipods, brine shrimp, copepods but also let them run out of those things in other words only feed 6-10 amphipods in the tank at a time. 2-5 times a day try some frozen food of some kind, brine, mysid, rotifer, copepods. Mine have always ended up on frozen brine (enriched before frozen). make sure you squirt it near them where they can see it fall. You can also try garlic soaked sinking pellets. Mine always start with watching the brine fall and eventually eat the brine. I don't think any of my dragonets have taken longer than 10 days ( less than recommended quarantine time) to start eating brine. But I make sure to give them live food in the meantime. One advantage for live brine is you can gut load medicine as part of your quarantine. Mandarins don't get ich much but can get flukes and intestinal parasites.

5. Once they are eating brine and you are sure they are safe put them in your seeded tank but still feed them their non-living food daily (2x daily to me is the minimum). You've kept back some copepods so you can reseed every once in a while their favorite healthy food. The copepods and amphipods will reproduce in a healthy aquarium and will act as part of your clean up crew. But if you didn't get a large tank or if you have to dose for disease or if you get certain algaes or dino your population may decline. So when it is over reseed. Also think about the other fish you get make sure you don't load up on too many copepod eaters. tangs, banggai, clownfish these don't ravage a copepod population. small wrasse, some gobies, pipefish, seahorses these all eat copepods as vigorously as dragonets. Many of these other fish can be trained to a feeder as well.

6. be prepared to reseed. I reseed amphipods about 3 times per year. I just ordered 2000 because I'm going on vacation so I'll dump those in my multiple tanks and won't feed at all while I'm gone. The fish will hunt naturally and have lots of copepods and amphipods to eat. My dragonets and tangs will be in the best shape (tangs because I have 5 different macro algaes in the tank). My banggai and clowns might be hungry when I come back but because they are fat and happy before I leave they'll be fine. All my worst tank problems have occurred when I left for vacation and someone else came to feed. This will be my first nobody coming vacation so we'll see how it turns out but I know my dragonets will fair the best as they are getting copepods and amphipods dumped in the tank right before I go. It also is cheaper, I spent $44 on the amphipods (including shipping) which is less than visits from a pet sitter.

Now you could probably never feed copepods and amphipods if they are eating frozen or pellets. But I think they will stay healthier if they get some natural foods and this also allows them to pick all day since they have short digestive tracks. The non-live foods like brine give them large top offs to their stomach meaning they don't need as much live foods and also means they'll eat less copepods which allows them to reproduce and keep the population up. I've had my Mandarins almost a year which isn't long but I take the fact that she is getting gravid and he has put on some weight as signs they are doing well. My ruby reds I've had less than that but continual spawning speaks to their health (remember they had concave stomachs when I got them). I can also tell you my ruby reds I was so worried about them I didn't put them in the 1 gallon quarantine I put them in my frag tanks that also had large amounts of copepods. but I still fed them brine and pellets 2xdaily. They eventually started eating the brine even with clouds of copepods so they too appreciate a large meal without work LOL. The male will now swim up and eat out of the water column. All three of my new spotted mandarins are now eating frozen brine (exclusively since they are still in quarantine).

Well you asked for it. I hope that rant helps you. Feel free to ask follow up questions. I don't see Mandarins as a fish you can't keep without success I just view them as needing some very specific steps. I'd rate them as difficult only due to you can't just buy one and throw it in a tank with anything. But I also don't agree with those that say only a large fully developed live rock tank can handle them after a year of waiting. Food is food you can jump start those copepods and due to their short reproductive cycle you can up your population quickly but more importantly with training your fish won't rely only on copepods.


I needed to add that I think the tank should be relatively low flow compared to the standard reef tank. My mandarins are never so active as when I turn the pumps off. I should also add this is the setup for mandarins and dragonets. It can cause problems for other things. Like when you over feed you can get a break out of nuisance algae, corals may not appreciate low flow. But I set my tanks up with mandarins in mind and then add other things as I think I can. I don't have a sps tank that I try to add a mandarin to. Btw I do have sps, my montiporia (easy to grow) had sent from 1" square to a beautiful 6-8" oval. But if it comes down to the monti or the mandarin the monti loses. The top of my tank has more flow than the bottom allowing me to sneak in a few sps near the top of the tank and I still have to use a turkey baster to blow off the monti once or twice daily when done feeding.
 
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I got my pods from Live aquaria. I live in Florida so the shipping isn't as bad. But then I cultured them. I was doing well culturing tisbe, parvo, psuedo until my tetra crashed. A few got some rotifers in there. the Parvo and psuedo don't like nanno. My LFS is about to start stocking Algagen pods. I told him I'd buy some parvo's when he got them.

If you are culturing you'll only buy them once. In the bottle you only get like 300. But in 6 weeks you'll have 1000's upon thousands if you provide them with the right food. Tisbes will eat just about anything but the parvo's and psuedo's need a motile algae like tetra or iso.
 
Any updates? Been following your (& Kathy's on the other site) closely. My pair still has not shown any spawn behavior :confused: Maybe someday....
 
Well I missed a batch of eggs Thursday (hubby turned on the pumps and the lights out) Friday I found like 6 prolarva. I caught them and put them in some tetra/iso but I didn't have many pods to give them as I topped off all my tanks getting ready for vacation. I'm on vacation now so I don't expect much luck with those larva (though maybe they'll do better without me). They have slowed on spawning but still spawn every 7-10 days it seems. When I get back my LFS is supposed to have me some Parvo pods. It will take a few weeks to get their population up and then we should have something as I also now have tetra and iso in stock (if it doesn't crash while I"m a way). I won't be back at the tanks til Saturday.

Ken what are you feeding yours? In my limited experience spawning is based on food and salinity. It seems when my tank creeps up to 1.027 or 1.028 they stop spawning and when I do my weekly maintenance bringing the salinity down they spawn.
 
As expected the ones from vacation weren't there when I returned. My ruby's however have spawned like 3-4 times since I returned. My new batch of parvo copepods just came in Tuesday so the numbers aren't up. This weekend I couldn't see any in the container so I don't know if I somehow lost them again. My LFS just started ordering from Algagen so I told him to go ahead and order me another batch of parvo's. Since I don't have to pay shipping it gets a lot easier to justify the $16. I discovered my plankton tank seem to have turned from nano to maybe t-iso. It is filled with small motile something. It also has some hydroids. So I took some of that water out and put in some tisbe pods (which probably had a few rotifers and added some eggs that should have hatched last night.

I also looked in one of my old containers (1/2 gallon jar). I had thrown in a few brine to grow up and forgot about it for about a month. Well it has pods, rots and a few adult brine. the brine I think are keeping the rots in check. There is just a little phyto in there. I added a little iso and some eggs to it too. I don't know if the brine are large enough to eat or damage the larva. I though about taking the brine out but I think they are helping keeping the rots in check and from crashing. I've never had a culture with rots that I didn't do anything to for a month and still have rots, algae and low ammonia for a month. When I did an ammonia check it was between 0 and 0.25 It also has some stringy algae in the bottom growing. I think it is a form of iso.

I threw some in the plankton tank but I expect the hydroids will kill them.
I also threw some in my big tank refugium but that hasn't worked before and now there are fish in there (two spotted mandarins and a pair of coral crouchers).

Don't know what I"m going to do with the next batch of eggs but I"m open to ideas. I think it will be 6 weeks until my copepods get strong enough for a true run at babies.
 
Great thread. I appreciate reading all the detailed information you shared. I have a pair of Ruby reds in my tank and they do the dance every night when the blue lights are about to go off.
I would not consider raising breeding them. And I certainly appreciate your straight forward approach to feeding and caring for these fish.
 
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