Sailfin going down in QT...

[rort]

Looks like this thread has gotten a little heated which is ok but what I'm not ok with is people being chastised for their opinion whether it be wrong or not. Different words can be used! But I still thank everyone for their advice.

At this time I do not have the adequate tank to take out ALL my fish (a foxface, Sailfin, 2 firefish, Midas Blenny).

I am a little confused on exactly what people are saying tho...

My params:

pH - 8.4
NO2 - 0
NO3 - stays between 10-20 (just purchased much better skimmer and am seeing this go down)
SG- .025

I don't test anything past that as it is a FOWLR and I make my own RO/DI water with a TDS.

I do 10% water changes every week. All my fish eat like crazy that I feed with Flaked, Pellets, Mysis, and Frozen and all dosed with VitaChem and Garlic.

I have been told that if keep my tank running healthy for 6 weeks and do not add any new fish, the parasite will go away? I am trying to treat with Kick Ich and 24/7 UV Sterilizer.

I am not trying to look for an answer that I want but one that will give me the best results with the resources I have at hand.

 

[Conesus_Kid]

If there are fish in the display, it will take about 11 months for the parasite to "die out", as long as no new parasites are introduced to the system (via new fish). (For some reason, there seems to be a finite number of generations that the parasite can produce in a closed system.)

In other words, if you want to rid your tank completely of the parasite, remove all fish for 8 weeks and treat them in a well-establish QT, OR do not add any new, unquarantined fish to your tank for 11 months.

 

[rort]

Thank you Conesus! I dont plan to be adding any new fish in the near future as I want my QT to mature and allow the filter to build up a lot more bacteria in my sump!

 

[Zaita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13376508#post13376508 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Conesus_Kid
If there are fish in the display, it will take about 11 months for the parasite to "die out", as long as no new parasites are introduced to the system (via new fish). (For some reason, there seems to be a finite number of generations that the parasite can produce in a closed system.)

In other words, if you want to rid your tank completely of the parasite, remove all fish for 8 weeks and treat them in a well-establish QT, OR do not add any new, unquarantined fish to your tank for 11 months.

Link to scientific article showing that there is a limited number of generations please?

If this were the case, no ick would exist in the world anymore. So I don't think this is true.

 

[LionfishFinatic]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13373905#post13373905 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
errr... Fish don't "develop" ick. Ick is a parasite, it MUST be introduced into a system before a fish can become infected. It is a studied, and known parasite with a known life-cycle (6weeks).

You should QT your fish, but you should do it correctly. You should NOT just throw a new fish into your display. Ick is a minor illness, but not something you want to introduce to your display if you can prevent it. It's still a parasite that will constantly infect the fish (even if you don't see noticeable signs). I would be more concerned with throwing a new fish in my tank and it having velvet, which would be quickly start wiping out all of my fish.

QT your fish, but do it properly. Don't add an unnecessary parasite into your fish tank. Be it ick, or another parasite that maybe more dangerous.

I do agree with george. It's not a bad idea to remove the fish for 6-8 weeks from the display so the ick in the display can die off, treat the fish with hyposalinity to remove any parasites that maybe present on/in them.

What i mainly was trying to say is, why Quarentine if you are going to put a healthy sailfin in a tank of lets say 10g (not saying the OP did) for a couple weeks to "observe for parasites and such" . Sailfins are a very active fish and NEED the room to stay healthy. a rather large fish (4" +) will eventually raise the ammonia in a smaller tank so much that their system can't handle it anymore and die. you need a tank on the larger side (55g +) to properly do a quarentine. and this also means you can't skimp out on the basics (protein skimmer, places to hide such as pvc, etc.) and most people aren't dedicated enough to do this. that is basically what i was trying to get at. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong, this is just my .02.

 

[shelburn61]

It's funny that SeeDemTails advice is pretty close to what I've heard from some very experienced, reputable LFS folks. There's some questionable factual info there, but I think he has a point that optimum environment may be the most important factor. LFS guys should know better than anyone that relatively healthy, unstressed fish are pretty good at fighting off disease if given the chance. I lost quite a few fish in QT before I realized that a barebones, unseasoned tank was doing more harm than good in most cases.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378042#post13378042 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
Link to scientific article showing that there is a limited number of generations please?

If this were the case, no ick would exist in the world anymore. So I don't think this is true.

Your logic is flawed, but I'd like to see the article too.

 

[SeeDemTails]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13373947#post13373947 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
There is a VERY high chance your system has ick, and that your fish are infected every 6 weeks, you just can't see it because there are no external signs

Of course my system has ich, so does yours!

My fish are not infected, I have had most of my fish for years. Never lost any of them to ich. Bought sevral with ich, only to watch it go away in a couple days, and none of my other fish ever got sick once.

I dont care what article you show me, I have seen ich "appear" to many times, even after the tank was fallow for 10 weeks plus, and all the fish were QT'ed and treated with copper, which I am strongly against doing. No matter, the guy had crappy water and didnt take care of his tank, and the fish low and behold got ich again........the guy says "But I listend to the advice I got on the internet!?!?!" I had to laugh out loud.

90% of you are talking out your azzes becuase you have only read about ich, not beat it doezens and dozens of times like I have.

Say what you want, I work at a shop so I am the "LFS girl", but the shop I work at is one of the nicest SPS shops in florida, not a petco like shop. Take my advice and other reputable peoples and I promise you will prevent the deaths of many fish...Or do what you want, its your choice.

As far as your NO3...A new skimmer will help but a tank that large only has NO3 because of a couple reasons. Either you do not have enough flow, you are running filter pads or floss, or you are not doing water changes frequently enough, but I doubt he last is the cause. My guess is that you do not have enough flow. A tank that is running properly should never have NO3.....You need to fix it because it is a problem!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13376756#post13376756 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by rort
and allow the filter to build up a lot more bacteria in my sump!

This statement scares the heck out of me! What filter are you talking about? Please do say you run a pad or bio balls? If you do rip them out, and put a powerhead in your sump. A sump can be a "dead" spot too.

I really dont care what other people are saying or arguing about, no one will convince me different....All I care about are the fish...How are they doing?

And Jacob30, dont kid yourself, I am far from a newb lol, my tank won nano tank of the month this month.

 

[shelburn61]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378381#post13378381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeeDemTails
Of course my system has ich, so does yours!

I dont care what article you show me, I have seen ich "appear" to many times, even after the tank was fallow for 10 weeks plus, and all the fish were QT'ed and treated with copper, which I am strongly against doing.

Then you obviously hadn't totally eradicated it. Ich doesn't just "appear" unless it's introduced from an outside source. Spontaneous generation was disproved in the 1800's

 

[Conesus_Kid]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378042#post13378042 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
Link to scientific article showing that there is a limited number of generations please?

I've seen Lee Birch post on it before, but here's a quote from Steven Pro on this thread:

Burgess P.J. and Matthews R.A. 1994. A standardized method for the in vivo maintenance of Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora) using the grey mullet Chelon labrosus as an experimental host. Journal of Parasitology 80:288-292.

Here is the relavent excerpt from his webpage, http://www.petsforum.com/personal/t.../marineich.html

"Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.

The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present. "

 

[sunfish11]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13350923#post13350923 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeeDemTails
If you say so lol. I dont work at petco, I work at one of the nicest SPS reef shops in florida.

So Scott, what exactly are your trying to prevent by QTing a tang? Ich lol?

Most fish that die in QT tanks are perfectly healthy before entering the tank, only to develop ich or other signs of ammonia posioning at which point the noobish person says "boy I am glad I QTed that fish, it would have killed my whole tank!" and then they start the cycle over again, if only they had put the healthy fish in the established tank in the first place. I am sick of watching people kill fish.

The fish in this case as well as many others were ill from ammonia posioning, not because they has a disease and needed to be seperated.

Fish die of ich in QT because of tanks like the one in this thread. The fish gets stressed even more being in a tank with no algae and no capability to sustain the load of the fish.

What a coincidence that the fish is doing better in the DT tank. Has the other tang showed up yet or did you wait to long to remove it from the sewage water in your QT tank?

Ich doesnt kill fish in healthy tanks, end of story.

A tang needs algae to graze on and an established tank will give the fish a much better shot.

Good food and water will give almost any fish a better chance that a stressful amonia filled QT tank. You have no idea how many fish I have saved with nothing more than good food and water that people brought ot the shop because they were sure the fish was going to die....

Some of you are totally out of the loop. I dont read articles to learn what I know, I prefer experience.

I don't want to get flamed but this is also what works for me and I have 5 healthy tangs including a beautiful 7-8 inch Achilles. Good water and lots of food = healthy fish. I have lost a couple of fish over the years (carpet surfers), but I never lost one to Ich or other disease. Granted I have only been doing this for just under 4 years now but I have had much luck with fish.

I wouldn't advocate against quarantine though as long as it is done correctly. Many QT's are fish killers simply because the novice aquarist doesn't have them set up correctly.

Lisa

 

[sunfish11]

double post

 

[Zaita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378711#post13378711 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Conesus_Kid
I've seen Lee Birch post on it before, but here's a quote from Steven Pro on this thread:

Burgess P.J. and Matthews R.A. 1994. A standardized method for the in vivo maintenance of Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora) using the grey mullet Chelon labrosus as an experimental host. Journal of Parasitology 80:288-292.

Here is the relavent excerpt from his webpage, http://www.petsforum.com/personal/t.../marineich.html

"Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.

The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present. "

Edit: The Matthews article was shown to be incorrect in.

A standardized method to propagate Cryptocaryon irritans on a susceptible host pompano Trachinotus ovatus
X.M. Dana, b, A.X. Lib, , , X.T. Lina, N. Tengb and X.Q. Zhuc - 2006.

A benefit of working for a research company. Instant access to many thousands of research papers.

Fish can build an immunity to the parasite allowing them to break the cycle.

 

[SeeDemTails]

Hey Lisa, dont worry about getting flamed, I dont! Newbs post on article reading, we post on experience. Experience is a far better tutor.

Great job using common sense with your fish. I bet they are all healthy and happy!

Perhaps it has gone away on its own, maybe as Consensus_kid said.

My fish have never had one spot of ich after a few days in my tank. Many had it before. I know EXACTLY what it looks like, an my fish have never again had one single outbreak.

I am a FIRM believer that if you keep you water clean and feed you fish the right amount of high quality food, you wil never have issues with ich.

I actually buy sick fish, covered in ich from less reputable LFS's for cheap.....Only to walk back in a few weeks later and flash a few pics of the fish heatlthy and fat. Jaws drop lol. Then I sell the fish to someone who will take care of it.

Have you ever bought a fish just because you though you could save it? I have! My favorite part of this hobby isnt growing huge SPS colonies or winnign TOTM, its saving sick and dying animals.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378932#post13378932 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
Fish can build an immunity to the parasite allowing them to break the cycle.

HAHAHAHA GMAFB!!!!!! Nothing can build an immunity to a parasite!

Just like dogs and cats build an immunity to fleas right?

Healthy fish have a stonger slime coat that IMO prevents ich from attaching.

 

[Zaita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378381#post13378381 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeeDemTails
Of course my system has ich, so does yours!

Actually, my tank is parasite free.

My fish are not infected, I have had most of my fish for years. Never lost any of them to ich. Bought sevral with ich, only to watch it go away in a couple days, and none of my other fish ever got sick once.

As I have mentioned earlier, your fish are free from VISIBILE signs. I'd hardly consider any visible look at a fish a proven method of ensuring it's parasite free.

That's like me looking outside, going "oh it's a sunny day, must be global warming".

I dont care what article you show me, I have seen ich "appear" to many times, even after the tank was fallow for 10 weeks plus, and all the fish were QT'ed and treated with copper,

Copper is not an effective method of killing the parasite. Hypo-salinity is a more effective method.

90% of you are talking out your azzes becuase you have only read about ich, not beat it doezens and dozens of times like I have.

I get to see models for fish stock every day, that hardly makes me an expert in creating models. Your not a biologist, you've bought no scientific literature or evidence or even statements. Nothing past what you've witness with your own eyes. If that were the case, the world would still be flat and Ra would be the sun.

Say what you want, I work at a shop so I am the "LFS girl", but the shop I work at is one of the nicest SPS shops in florida, not a petco like shop.

That's a good thing your shop has spent the money on viable setups to keep SPS corals healthy.

I really dont care what other people are saying or arguing about, no one will convince me different....All I care about are the fish...How are they doing?

That's a very shallow point of view to take. Especially when some people who post on here have been reef chemists or biologists for longer than you've been alive.

And Jacob30, dont kid yourself, I am far from a newb lol, my tank won nano tank of the month this month.

No offence, but 99% of the Nano's I have ever seen invovle getting a small tank, spending a few $k filling it with corals and taking photos. I'd like to see a Nano that's been setup for >5years, that's something worth seeing.

If I find time today, I may hunt around work and find a biologist who is an expert in marine Ick (I work for a significant marine research company) and get them to provide me with their knowledge. I'd rather not though.

 

[Zaita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378966#post13378966 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeeDemTails
HAHAHAHA GMAFB!!!!!! Nothing can build an immunity to a parasite!

Just like dogs and cats build an immunity to fleas right?

Healthy fish have a stonger slime coat that IMO prevents ich from attaching.

Ok. Read below, from an ACTUAL scientific article.

Previous studies have shown that thick-lipped mullet (Chelon labrosus) and mummichog (Fundulus heteroclitus) develop acquired protective immunity to C. irritans and sera from infected and recovered fish can immobilize theronts (Burgess and Matthews 1995b; Yoshinaga and Nakazoe 1997).

Abstracted from: Some characteristics of hostâ€"œparasite relationship for Cryptocaryon irritans isolated from South China
X. C. Luo1, 2, M. Q. Xie1, X. Q. Zhu3 and A. X. Li1

Fish CAN build an immunity to a parasite.

 

[SeeDemTails]

First off touche! I enjoy a good discussion! No hard feelings agreed!?

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378995#post13378995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
Actually, my tank is parasite free.

As I have mentioned earlier, your fish are free from VISIBILE signs. I'd hardly consider any visible look at a fish a proven method of ensuring it's parasite free.

Or so you think....Do you have any proof you dont have ich in your system other than healthy fish? I sure dont!

Wow I guess all these years the fish have been growing, they must have been stunted by all the ich in my system that I didnt see

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378995#post13378995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
Copper is not an effective method of killing the parasite. Hypo-salinity is a more effective method.

I agree! I hate copper! I is a horrible thing to do to fish, especially "scaleless" or small scale fish like clowns. Hyposalinity works, but not many people can do it right.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378995#post13378995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
I get to see models for fish stock every day, that hardly makes me an expert in creating models. Your not a biologist, you've bought no scientific literature or evidence or even statements. Nothing past what you've witness with your own eyes. If that were the case, the world would still be flat and Ra would be the sun.

Oh really? I am a 4th year student about to graduate with a degree in marine sciences. I hope to take part in the preservation of floridas coral reef someday soon!

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378995#post13378995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
That's a good thing your shop has spent the money on viable setups to keep SPS corals healthy.

Hahahaa there is a whole lot more than money that goes into keeping SPS corals healthy and growing.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378995#post13378995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
That's a very shallow point of view to take. Especially when some people who post on here have been reef chemists or biologists for longer than you've been alive.

To bad none of them are posting on this thread lol.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378995#post13378995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
No offence, but 99% of the Nano's I have ever seen invovle getting a small tank, spending a few $k filling it with corals and taking photos. I'd like to see a Nano that's been setup for >5years, that's something worth seeing.

My tank is two years old, and I have grown every colony in it from a small frag. "No offense" but I get better SPS growth in my nano than you probably do in your big reef and I have the pics to prove it.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13378995#post13378995 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Zaita
If I find time today, I may hunt around work and find a biologist who is an expert in marine Ick (I work for a significant marine research company) and get them to provide me with their knowledge. I'd rather not though.

Please do. I want to hear their thoughts.

As far as fish building an immunity to a parasite.....I wonder if any of those scientist stressed those fish and re-exposed them to ich?

A healthy fish wont catch ich, period.

Wonder where they got the mullet and the mud minnows aka mummichogs? They were wild caught......In the wild the fish are obviously exposed to ich before this test so it means nothing to me.

 

[Zaita]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13379116#post13379116 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SeeDemTails
First off touche! I enjoy a good discussion! No hard feelings agreed!?

None at all

Or so you think....Do you have any prrof you dont have ich in your system othet than healthy fish? I sure dont!

Tank remained fish free, bacteria bloomed wiped out alot of my stock and have not re-introduced the parasite.

Wow I guess all these years the fish have been growing, they must have been stunted by all the ich in my system that I didnt see

Who says the parasite stunts the growth of the fish?

Oh really? I am a 4th year student about to graduate with a degree in marine sciences. I hope to take part in the preservation of floridas coral reef someday soon!

Hoping? You should be graduating

My tank is two years old, and I have grown every colony in it from a small frag. "No offense" but I get better SPS growth in my nano than you probably do in your big reef and I have the pics to prove it.

Quite likely, as I have removed all SPS from my tank. Not really into coloured sticks Alot of my coral keeping advice comes from a friend reefer who has been keeping coral tanks for 15yrs now.

As far as fish building an immunity to a parasite.....I wonder if any of those scientist stress those fish are re-exposd them to ich?

A healthy fish wont catch ich, period.

A healthy fish will catch ick, how else does ick survive in the system? A healthy fish is less likely to show signs of a visible infection, but rest assured they'll still be infected.

Wonder where they got the mullet and the mud minnows aka munchimmogs? They were wild caught......In the wild the fish are obviously exposed to ich before this test so it means nothing to me.

How can it mean nothing? It shows that over a period of time these fish are able to build an immunity to the parasite. Which is what you said was impossible. I have shown a scientific abstract that disproves your theory.

In a nutshell, Ick is a marine parasite that has been extensively studied. It has a well known life-cycle and ways to combat it. There is no magic to preventing your system from getting Ick or removing it once it's in your system. You just have to be diligent to ensure it's not re-introduced.

Healthy fish will get Ick, they will not show visible signs. The parasite will infect the fishes gills, so you'd not be able to see these without a close examination of the fish. If you think your system has Ick, the best thing you can do is remove all fish for atleast 8 weeks and treat the fish in a QT system with hypo-salinity (note: this doesn't work on all species of Ick). The 8 week's of no viable hosts will kill off all parasites present in your main system.

The OP asked why their fish was going downhill, and it's been established they had an insufficient QT system setup. I don't think it's good advice to be telling people they shouldn't QT their fish. I've seen many people who have not QT'd a fish only to have velvet or brook start killing their livestock. Unfortunately something like velvet is pretty much fatal by the time visible signs are present.

I for one, highly recommend people QT their fish. But do it correctly. If they have questions regarding the parasites they are trying to avoid I'd suggest they consult some scientific literature instead of taking people's personal opinions as fact.

 

[Conesus_Kid]

Zaita-

I don't want to derail (although it's a bit late for that, huh? ). I read the abstract of the article you posted, and it stated that they were able to propagate C. irritans for up to 40 consecutive cycles. Did they mention in the body of the article that they could have continued, or was 40 cycles their max? (http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18054339)

Also, I'm curious about your claim that hypo is more effective than copper.

(Please note: I'm not attempting to be confrontational; I'm just a really curious person!)

Thanks!

 

[Zaita]

@Conesus_Kid: I'll have a read through, I had a few articles up that were showing how they kept C irritans alive in a laboratory. 1 even did so without a host fish. I am finishing work shortly for today, and I cannot access the sites from home (work subscription etc)

The parasites are not tolerant of lower salinity, more so than copper. But in saying that, both treatments can fail. So it'd be best to use them both.

 

[sunfish11]

I have also put fish that had visible ich in my tank and never had another fish get it and had the fish that had it clear up totally. My cure for ich is clean water and lots of feedings throughout the day. I do use garlic but don't know if that has anything to do with it although it seems to. I am not a scientist I just know what works for me.

If quarantining works for you then do that, but it is not fair to dog out those who have healthy fish and healthy tanks that don't do it that way. No matter how many studies are done the scientists don't know it all there is to know that's for sure. Ich isn't a big deal anyway and doesn't kill fish that are happy and aren't all stressed out.
Lisa