jsjonesrdh
New member
Also, lets leave "you mad bro" to the gamers forums please 
Sand Bed Vacuum Test - Phosphate Liberation?
- Thread starter LouH
- Start date
LouH
LouH
An update on my experimentation
An update on my experimentation
Well, I had to move again because my landlord decided to put his house on the market. This time I decided to try a bare bottomed tank. The results are significantly better than any set-up I've had before. I still run a remote DSB, but having no sand makes it easy to see how much fish poop has accumulated in the display, and I know when it is truly clean after maintenance. I think that what happens with a sand bed is that you end up getting lazy and not siphoning out the sand to clean it. Inevitable it leads to poor water quality, and the corals suffer.
Being so lucky, I've had the privilege of moving my tank a total of 4 times since 2007 :debi:. With each move of my system, I have observed immediate coral growth from corals that refused to grow prior to the move. That is why I decided to go with no sand in the display after the last move (October 2012). All corals, (yes, plenty of SPS), are growing and have decent color. I'm sticking with this configuration for a while.
Lou
An update on my experimentation
Well, I had to move again because my landlord decided to put his house on the market. This time I decided to try a bare bottomed tank. The results are significantly better than any set-up I've had before. I still run a remote DSB, but having no sand makes it easy to see how much fish poop has accumulated in the display, and I know when it is truly clean after maintenance. I think that what happens with a sand bed is that you end up getting lazy and not siphoning out the sand to clean it. Inevitable it leads to poor water quality, and the corals suffer.
Being so lucky, I've had the privilege of moving my tank a total of 4 times since 2007 :debi:. With each move of my system, I have observed immediate coral growth from corals that refused to grow prior to the move. That is why I decided to go with no sand in the display after the last move (October 2012). All corals, (yes, plenty of SPS), are growing and have decent color. I'm sticking with this configuration for a while.
Lou
Reefin' Dude
New member
the point is to match your system setup to the organisms one wants to keep. the time of everyone thinking they can setup the tank the same and maintain it the same for all organisms needs to end.
it is easier to maintain an oligotrophic system if you can keep an eye on all of the detritus. it makes more sense for these systems to be BB. it is easier to maintain low levels of inorganic nutrients for more eutrophic systems with a substrate so it make sense for these reef systems to have a substrate.
G~
it is easier to maintain an oligotrophic system if you can keep an eye on all of the detritus. it makes more sense for these systems to be BB. it is easier to maintain low levels of inorganic nutrients for more eutrophic systems with a substrate so it make sense for these reef systems to have a substrate.
G~
channingd
New member
I'm going to label my method as "tweeker". I've maintained tanks for business and personal for years and now only keep mine. I vacuum my gravel once a month. Different spots, kind of like your 11% thing. I then let that water and gunk settle in the bucket and, well here's the tweeker part, I look for life in my bucket, ie: brittle stars and pods and then put them back in my tank. I know "tweeker". My parameters have always stayed stable and I have had several different setups and methods of filtration. I think the wave hitting the tidepool sums it up.
sczlars
Member
I'm thinking of starting partial vacuuming. I'm running a shallow sand bed of 1-2 inches, that hasn't had any maintenance in at least a year (last tank move 15g -> 20g), and if anything has shrunk. I know a lot of detritus has accumulated from feeding the fish. That said, things (LPS, acros, etc) are growing fine and looking good, so I don't feel pressed to do anything about it. Stable parameters, and undetectable nitrate and phosphate (salifert kits)
--Lars
--Lars
Nano sapiens
New member
In Nano tanks we see the effects of detritus buildup in a sand bed more quickly (typically 8 months to 2 years, depending on a whole host of conditions). In a larger system, the negative effects take more time to manifest, but you will very likely notice increasing NO3 and PO4 levels as the SB becomes clogged/ineffective and the substrate saturated with phosphate.
Reefin' Dude
New member
you can, but sometimes the coralline growing on the glass can irritate those corals when expanded. what worked for me is to put the coral on a small piece of PVC pipe. use the pipe as a stand.
it does become a bit of a battle though. the sand loving corals love the sand for a reason. they come from a different environment than the outer reef corals. it becomes a question of which corals do you want to optimize the health for with respect to maintenance?
G~
it does become a bit of a battle though. the sand loving corals love the sand for a reason. they come from a different environment than the outer reef corals. it becomes a question of which corals do you want to optimize the health for with respect to maintenance?
G~
dastowers
New member
Went BB today. I used "used" live sand when I setup this mixed reef. My phosphates were really bad. 2.0 yeah.... Huge flow, sump, refugium, less feeding, chaeto, water changes..it sucked. Well, last night after reading until my eyes shut themselves- and DREAMING about removing the crushed coral/sand combo. I spent the morning and removed 3 five gallon buckets full of yuck!! Only way I can describe it. Tank has only been up for 2 months (moved 75 gallon reef to 150 gallon) but the "used" live sand I purchased when I bought a reef tank to supplement the 75 for the 150g was full of phosphates it was leaching. I know the rocks will be leaching too. Just installed a BRS double reactor with GFO and Carbon today. After the sand removal- which the corals and most fish were removed- I did a WC of 40 gallons. Now - 3 hours later- the water tests .25 for phosphates.
As for the bubble coral - it is in a short juice glass full of sand until I can get something a little more pleasant to look at.
As for the bubble coral - it is in a short juice glass full of sand until I can get something a little more pleasant to look at.
asylumdown
New member
The one thing that I haven't seen mentioned in this thread is that decaying organic matter isn't a limitless source of nutrients. There is a finite amount of nitrogen and phosphorous in any piece of organic matter, and once that piece of matter has been broken down as far as it can be, it won't release anything else.
Has anyone ever taken those piles of detritus that build up on the bottom of a bare-bottom tank/in the corner of a sump and analyzed them chemically? How many nutrients are actually left in that mulm?
Has anyone ever taken those piles of detritus that build up on the bottom of a bare-bottom tank/in the corner of a sump and analyzed them chemically? How many nutrients are actually left in that mulm?
Reefin' Dude
New member
you are somewhat right. it does get a bit complicated though. even if some of it does not break down further it does indicate an increase in total mass of the system. in most cases this end detritus will accumulate in a substrate and starts to choke out resources needed by the other organisms for their biological functions. i also thought the point was that this does not happen. it all gets converted to algae. 
what if it does not break down further? what is it doing for us in the system?
something that i have found referred to as end detritus. something that can not be broken down or wants to be used by anything. i would put marine snow into this category. the left overs from all of the biological activity in the upper levels of the ocean. looking up the composition of marine snow should be a good start.
G~
what if it does not break down further? what is it doing for us in the system?
something that i have found referred to as end detritus. something that can not be broken down or wants to be used by anything. i would put marine snow into this category. the left overs from all of the biological activity in the upper levels of the ocean. looking up the composition of marine snow should be a good start.
G~
dastowers
New member
I know this is only day two of going BB but wow! PE is great in the SPS and LPS corals (some could be better). Fish are happy. Left a spot of sand in the back of tank walled in by rock for the M. Wrasse. Love that guy. Have noticed I have huge bristleworms. Last night the longest one was over 12 inches. My goodness- the things you can see when your fuge light is uplighting the tank at night.
Phosphate tested at between 0.0 and .25 today. The color was split in the middle.
As an engineer (we control what we can) BB takes out a lot of variables.
There is a large sump with a refugium (chaeto/rubble) on the left- BRS reactor just hooked up and not in place.... and a 30 gallon stand alone POD FARM on the right. :dance:
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LobsterOfJustice
Recovering Detritophobe
I have a diamond goby (well, a pair) that keeps my sand stirred up for me. I too have moved a LOT (5 times since 2007). I've always had a shallow sandbed (1" max). I didn't have a diamond goby during those first two moves, and never vacuumed. I noticed that when I moved all sorts of nastiness was stirred up and the whole sandbed had to be removed, rinsed, and replaced and the last little bit of water in the tank had to be tossed. Since having a diamond goby, the sand stays super clean. The last few times I have moved, I have been able to siphon out the water all they way to the bottom and it's clean enough to reuse, and I can leave the sand in the tank. No junk collects in the sandbed. I would say this essentially serves the same purpose as siphoning the sand, I'm just stirring it constantly and removing all that stuff 24/7 with my filtration. Also, I'm sure they eat some life in the sand, but there are still plenty of worms and other critters in my sandbed despite the two of them working it over constantly.
Talkingfinger
New member
Do we also consider what creatures we have in the tank when determining how often to vacuum and if at all?
For example, in my biocube, the actual surface of sand is not large. I have three nassarius snails that do a number on breaking the sand up, as well as a serpent star that loves to dig under rocks, and a good population of hermit crabs.
The amount of sand I can reach with a wand is probably about 30% of the total surface area. The rest is live rock embedded into the sand or just angles I couldn't reach with the wand.
I did order a vacuum kit last week just because it was something I would do periodically in my older tank, but wondering if in this nano it's worth doing considering inhabitants (those nassarius really break the sand up) and surface area.
Just additional info...running a protein skimmer
For example, in my biocube, the actual surface of sand is not large. I have three nassarius snails that do a number on breaking the sand up, as well as a serpent star that loves to dig under rocks, and a good population of hermit crabs.
The amount of sand I can reach with a wand is probably about 30% of the total surface area. The rest is live rock embedded into the sand or just angles I couldn't reach with the wand.
I did order a vacuum kit last week just because it was something I would do periodically in my older tank, but wondering if in this nano it's worth doing considering inhabitants (those nassarius really break the sand up) and surface area.
Just additional info...running a protein skimmer
gdemos
New member
routine stirring vs. vaccuum
routine stirring vs. vaccuum
I'm still interested in this thread, not new to the hobby but a new tank for me, 120g DT, 175g Sump, lots of tonga rock in sump with heavy flow, hi turnover, 6000SSS skimmer (rated for 600g+), DT has 2 MP40's I run at 100% constantly. DT Live rock is fairly minimal, 4 or 5 pieces in two islands. Sandbed is mostly sugar size, some live rock gravel, and some reef flakes. from 1/2" to 3".
I'm still growing out/QT all corals. this is a 100% Acro/SPS build.
I keep a lot of fish, 5 bimac anthias, 7 Bartlett anthias,3 Y Tangs, powder blue, powder brown, sailfin tang, yellow belly hippo, flame angel, goldflake angel, mystery wrasse. lots of cerith, nassarius snails, sandsifting star, and scarlet hermits.
getting the tank going I fed heavily, very heavily. I've since scaled back to a more appropriate feeding. tank is 9 months old. I've been through very high nitrate levels and am now doing 55g WC's bi-weekly plus the stirring of SB. as nitrates are coming down.
just started stirring the SB more routinely (weekly). now again I have no acros in the DT yet. my thinking is the stirring will get quickly filtered by the 2 100 micron socks, the LR, the huge skimmer.
before anyone tells me my setup is all wrong, I am confident this setup is top notch and my patient approach of building a mature system prior to adding corals will pay off, my errors will be made yes, but at least the corals will not go through my mistakes yet.
my thinking is that stirring in this setup with the high flow, big skim, etc. is just as good as vacuuming.
routine stirring vs. vaccuum
I'm still interested in this thread, not new to the hobby but a new tank for me, 120g DT, 175g Sump, lots of tonga rock in sump with heavy flow, hi turnover, 6000SSS skimmer (rated for 600g+), DT has 2 MP40's I run at 100% constantly. DT Live rock is fairly minimal, 4 or 5 pieces in two islands. Sandbed is mostly sugar size, some live rock gravel, and some reef flakes. from 1/2" to 3".
I'm still growing out/QT all corals. this is a 100% Acro/SPS build.
I keep a lot of fish, 5 bimac anthias, 7 Bartlett anthias,3 Y Tangs, powder blue, powder brown, sailfin tang, yellow belly hippo, flame angel, goldflake angel, mystery wrasse. lots of cerith, nassarius snails, sandsifting star, and scarlet hermits.
getting the tank going I fed heavily, very heavily. I've since scaled back to a more appropriate feeding. tank is 9 months old. I've been through very high nitrate levels and am now doing 55g WC's bi-weekly plus the stirring of SB. as nitrates are coming down.
just started stirring the SB more routinely (weekly). now again I have no acros in the DT yet. my thinking is the stirring will get quickly filtered by the 2 100 micron socks, the LR, the huge skimmer.
before anyone tells me my setup is all wrong, I am confident this setup is top notch and my patient approach of building a mature system prior to adding corals will pay off, my errors will be made yes, but at least the corals will not go through my mistakes yet.
my thinking is that stirring in this setup with the high flow, big skim, etc. is just as good as vacuuming.
faithenfire
it's all IMO
i keep a medium sandbed, i leave the bottom 2/3s and vaccuum the top once or twice a month.
it works for me. it's a whole other organic filter. i would imagine like any filter it needs to be cleaned and changed now and then along with occassional additions of filter material
it works for me. it's a whole other organic filter. i would imagine like any filter it needs to be cleaned and changed now and then along with occassional additions of filter material
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