Sand Bed Vacuum Test - Phosphate Liberation?

[elegance coral]

Elegance, sorry, I was referring to things like pods, brittle stars and such things and I guess you were referring to denitrifying bacteria.
I was just trying to say that if those creatures, (that I listed) are living well, then higher creatures will also.
Sorry if I misunderstood you.

It's all good Paul. No need for "Sorry".:thumbsup:

As you know, you and I don't always see eye to eye on topics, but I always enjoy debating them with you, and respect your opinion, because you have the ability to stay on topic,(except when you're joking:lmao, and you don't get all jacked out of shape just because I don't agree with you on every little thing. On top of that, I think you, I, and others that read our debates have a chance to learn something. I'm sure some readers learned a few thing in our last debate about nutrients on corals reefs, over on the other site.

Okay, enough of that. Back to the subject.:fun4:

I wasn't referring to denitrifying bacteria. I was grouping all the tiny critters that feed on left over scraps into one big group. All kinds of worms, pods, bacteria, or virtually anything that lives in the sand or rocks, and makes a living off of the scraps of others. We all have these critters in our tanks. Even squeaky clean BB tanks have them. Probably more than most people realize. Their populations are an indicator of nutrient levels within the system though. It takes a large amount of nutrients to sustain a large population of these critters. So as nutrient levels rise and decline, so does the population of these critters. If these critters are "thriving". Meaning there are large populations. The nutrients must be there to support them. Some of the critters we keep, like Acropora, don't do well with higher nutrients. So, I don't agree with the statement that if these tiny critters are thriving higher life forms will too. We're talking about critters that have different requirements to thrive. High nutrient organisms, and low nutrient organisms. If one is prospering in a system, it's highly likely that the other isn't.

 

[Paul B]

OK Elegance, I think this may be food for an interesting discussion.

All kinds of worms, pods, bacteria, or virtually anything that lives in the sand or rocks, and makes a living off of the scraps of others

This is true. But these creatures could also live in a tank by themselves if they were fed.
I think we both agree with that. I can keep a tank of pods, worms, and bacteria in a tank by themselves if I feed them. (I am getting to my point).

Their populations are an indicator of nutrient levels within the system

Maybe so, but their presence could also be a sign of overfeeding in a healthy system.
Yes, you are correct that usually we see multitudes of creatures in high nutrient systems,
But in a system such as mine, I overfeed but I have the theory that these creatures eat the excess food and the other parts of my system are there to remove the excess nutrients. Parts of my system such as my live hollow rock, algae trough and skimmer with ozone eliminate those excess nutrients.

If these critters are "thriving". Meaning there are large populations. The nutrients must be there to support them.

I feel that if these creatures are there, there is food there for them but a creature such as a pod, worm or brittle star lives off of real food and can not utilize a nutrient such as nitrogen. They eat scraps of food, bacteria and algae.

Some of the critters we keep, like Acropora, don't do well with higher nutrients.

I have 3 bluestripe pipefish, 2 mandarins and some tiny gobies that all eat pods. My old tank is full of pods, worms and brittle stars. Forget about bristle worms, I could write a book on them but my acropora is growing so fast that I am having trouble finding room for it and my other SPS corals.
So I do have multitudes of creatures, but also acropora.

We're talking about critters that have different requirements to thrive. High nutrient organisms, and low nutrient organisms. If one is prospering in a system, it's highly likely that the other isn't

I think we are confusing nutrients with food. Yes food if it is not utilized will become nutrients. Even if it is utilized it will become nutrients. But, if we need an example, my tank has been called a garbage dump. I even add mud from the sea. It certainly is not the nicest tank on here but it is a fact that SPS corals thrive and have been doing so for years. LPS are also living for not only years but decades and I have "almost" no algae growing in the display. I do have it in my algae trough and I use a Reverse UG filter which most people will say is useless.
I am sorry but I don't have test kits so I can't quote my parameters but a company did test the water for me in 2009.
I posted those results. At that time my tank was about 37 years old so I assume it is about the same now.
My nitrates were 5, phosphate was 0.2, alkinity carbonate was 9.225
alkinity borate was 2.226
I have all the other readings but I am an electrician and not a chemist. At the time Randy critiqued those results.
I have the tests for about 40 other nutrients in the tank but they seem about normal to me.
In "my" particular system I want to keep "extra" food in the tank to feed these creatures because I feel this resource also feeds the corals and tiny fish. Something is always spawning in this tank and although the fry do not reach adulthood, their numbers are also sustained by the "creatures for a while until they themselves become food for higher organisms.
As for releasing nutrients from a DSB or any other type of substrait, I know that if you have hydrogen sulfide such as I think the OP said he did, that is an unhealthy system. Nothing good grows in the presence of that.
I do a lot of collecting for pods, worms etc. and where I collect is full of rocks. If I lift a rock and see the black substance I know for certain that there are no higher life forms living there. If I lift a rock and see just mud, it is full of life, so much so that there is no room for mud, just pods. :beer:

 

[Dog boy Dave]

Alright dog boy. We had a nice productive thread going here in the Advanced forum, until you came along making statements you can't back up.

This is a thread about removing the rot and decay from sand beds, and the potential benefits of doing so. You come along saying that your 10" pile of rot is "effective". Well, the natural question to ask is, effective at what? Which is what I did. You have absolutely no clue what it's effective at, so to avoid the subject, and to save face, you belittle my system, and flame me. You're not helping, or adding anything of meaning to this thread. You're simply here causing problems, and mucking up a good thread.

If you have something meaningful to add to the thread, by all means, go for it, but don't get a chip on your shoulder when someone asks you to clarify your statements. Especially if your statements are contradictory to everything else that's been said in the thread. If you don't have anything meaningful to add, and you're simply here to cause problems, please just move on so we can continue what could be a really great thread.

Well guys done here. Dont know what this guys problem is but anytime I try to post on any thread about sand beds this guy goes ballistic. Sorry if I offended anyone else but it wont happen again.

 

[salty joe]

I'm going to set up a DSB because I want to keep jawfish.
To keep the DSB from fouling, I'm going to install a network of perforated pipes under the DSB connected to a drain . This will be used for water changes. Do you think this will work longterm? Hopefully it's not a stretch for me to view this thread as sandbed maintainence rather than strictly sandbed stirring.

 

[Randy15]

in the past i have left my sand bed untouched durring cleanings. but in the past year i have started cleaning as much of my sand bed as possible about once a month in addition to my micrbactor/vodka regimen. i have had dramatic results in my sps and lps growth and color.

 

[rhdoug]

My tank turns 13 this year, 58 gallon mixed reef, shallow sand bed. I have gone thru phases of vacuuming and not vacuuming what little sand I can actually get to. For the last few years I have not vacuumed it, but instead I take my feeding baster or sea squirt (very long baster) and gently blow into the sand in the reachable areas. I do this about once a week or so. I re-arrange the sand that has piled to areas where I don't want it at the same time, using the baster to blow it where it belongs. It does cloud the water for an hour or two, but the corals seem to love it and all expand to full glory during and after the storm. Seems to keep the sand clean and the little critters in the tank. I'm not sure the fish like it so much, but none of them have actually complained...

 

[smsreefer]

My tank turns 13 this year, 58 gallon mixed reef, shallow sand bed. I have gone thru phases of vacuuming and not vacuuming what little sand I can actually get to. For the last few years I have not vacuumed it, but instead I take my feeding baster or sea squirt (very long baster) and gently blow into the sand in the reachable areas. I do this about once a week or so. I re-arrange the sand that has piled to areas where I don't want it at the same time, using the baster to blow it where it belongs. It does cloud the water for an hour or two, but the corals seem to love it and all expand to full glory during and after the storm. Seems to keep the sand clean and the little critters in the tank. I'm not sure the fish like it so much, but none of them have actually complained...

It's a great way to help feed the corals in my experience.
Never seen any corals that did not respond well to it.

 

[LouH]

What a coincidence that the DSB topic came up. I have a 16" deep remote DSB in a 20 gallon Brute garbage can. That container is fed from the overflow of a 20 gallon refugium which receives a slip stream from my sump's return pump. I siphoned the top 1/2"-1" of sand from the DSB this weekend and got very little "crud" out of the sand. It was very clean compared to the sand in my main display. I have live rock over the DSB, but it sits on plastic light diffuser material which is held off the sand bed by about 3" with pieces of 2" diameter PVC tubing.

I have never measured nitrates in my system since installing a remote DSB several years ago, and I do not have nuisance algae in my system. You may have seen my thread a week or so ago regarding my inability to grow Chaeto, and I think that running a DSB is one of the reasons why.

Also, when I moved my syetem in October of 2010, the remote DSB was transported intact in the Brute garbage can and didn't need to cycle. I tied it right back into my system without issue.

Lou

 

[fio1022]

I too had problems growing and keeping sps corals.I spent allot of time and money trying to figure out what was wrong.Filter changes, increasing flow, increased water changes, lighting intensities,etc,etc,etc........
Very long story short i,I removed sand bed altogether.
My previous set up thrived with a bare bottom.My set up now is finally back on track and coral are growing again.
Not saying this look is for everyone but tank looks so much cleaner.

 

[LouH]

When I first got into reefkeeping, I used the wetwebmedia.com as my primary source of info. That board is moderated, or at least was at that time, by Bob Fenner, Anthony Calfo and others. Those are some pretty big names and experienced people. They were proponents of deep sand beds or very shallow sand beds of 1" or less. They claimed that problems tend to occur when sand beds are between 1" and 3". This advice seems about right with what many responders to this post are stating.

Back to my comment with my remote sand bed; I think that my sand in the RDSB stays so clean is that there are no large life forms deficating all over it, and the water feeding it has been through a mechanical filter, a protein skimmer and a refugium. With this configuration I believe that the DSB can operate for a long time without becoming an underwater composter.

 

[GPB]

The water I get out of my SSB every week is noticeably dirty. I was concerned about losing pods etc. I let the water settle, pour off the water and carefully and inspect the detritus at the bottom of the bucket. So far I've seen very few amphipods. Just about 3-4 per water change. I find equal amounts of them in my filter sock when I change it. Now if there are smaller copepods present I'm just not seeing them.

I used to have a CC DSB and it was a filthy nutrient sink. Never again. If this doesn't work out I'm going Barebottom.

 

[LouH]

Got to do more cleaning this weekend, some observations.

Got to do more cleaning this weekend, some observations.

I had a three day weekend, so I was able to resume the cleaning of sand in my system. This week I attacked my refugium which is a 20 gallon or so DIY tank with a 3" DSB with live rock over it. The live rock over the sand is elevated with plexiglass stands that I constructed. I decided to remove the live rock in the refugium and relocate them to a light diffuser plenum over the Brute garbage can DSB. The plexiglass stands got tossed in the trash. I then vacuumed the top inch of the refugium DSB, and to my surprise, it was not as dirty as I expected it to be. It was moderately cloudy for sure, but not the dark brown/green color that I get from the main display. A bigger problem was regional clumping which probably hurts gas infiltration into the top layer of the DSB. I believe that this was the result of poor water flow between the rock stands and the top of the sand bed.

One notable observation was that I didn't find a single pod at the bottom of the three 5 pails that I siphoned sand into. So, from a pod production perspective, the refugium/DSB combo isn't doing much to help produce pods. However, through the side viewing pane of the refugium DSB, there are plenty of worm tunnels into the sand, and down to pretty significant depths. I have to believe that the benthic invertibrate community has to add some value for my system.

Lou

 

[Dog boy Dave]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0mN3W_CZ9Y&feature=relmfu
Some good stuff.

 

[mess7777]

interesting discussion, aside from the deterioration near the middle. I am having some issues with corals that are on the sandbed, maybe it is time to start cleaning it more often.

 

[fishoutawater]

I put a piece of tubing on the end of a maxi jet and use it to blow out the sand bed weekly on all the tanks I work on. Unless it is extremely clogged with detritus, the corals love it, the fish usually follow me around with the power head, and I can reach areas that will never accommodate a gravel vac tube. The tanks cloud up from 10 minutes to a couple hours depending on how dirty it was, and how efficient the filtration is.
I have not ever lost an animal to this practice, even when the water is so dirty you can not see into the tank more than a few inches through the glass.
None of these tanks have a sand bed over 3" thick.

 

[elegance coral]

I put a piece of tubing on the end of a maxi jet and use it to blow out the sand bed weekly on all the tanks I work on. Unless it is extremely clogged with detritus, the corals love it, the fish usually follow me around with the power head, and I can reach areas that will never accommodate a gravel vac tube. The tanks cloud up from 10 minutes to a couple hours depending on how dirty it was, and how efficient the filtration is.
I have not ever lost an animal to this practice, even when the water is so dirty you can not see into the tank more than a few inches through the glass.
None of these tanks have a sand bed over 3" thick.

What you're suggesting obviously can be done successfully. It doesn't come without risks, however. Some very substantial risks.

One of the times Eric Borneman crashed his tank, he did it by disturbing a filthy sand bed like you describe. There have been many others with similar results.

In this article, Borneman describes how he did it. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...v-mkAg&usg=AFQjCNFn0Fzk6XZKP1_DUwCQ-XfzwRH3kg

From the link.
"Some aquarists had been suggesting that it might be a good idea to stir sand beds and release the accumulated detritus for removal by skimmers and to provide particulate foods for the corals. Already long considering the lack of particulates in the water column and ways to provide them, but not having given much thought to sedimentary microbiology or changes to water chemistry by stirring these sediments, it sounded like a good idea. So I stirred my sand beds a few times over a period of a week. Initially, I was impressed as the coral polyps opened and fed on the material that clouded the water column. A week later, most of my Acroporids began sloughing tissue, and I had my first really serious bout with what was then called "rapid tissue necrosis." It wiped out most of my corals, and it spawned my interest in what would eventually become one of the major subjects of the dissertation that I am now in the process of completing.

Lesson Learned: Sand beds are great, but are best left alone. They harbor huge populations of microbes, many of which are opportunistically, indirectly, or directly pathogenic to aquarium inhabitants (and humans). The changes in redox that occur in sand beds, along with disruption of anoxic pockets that may contain hydrogen sulfide, wreak havoc on all manner of water column parameters and can result in the death of virtually every fish and invertebrate in the tank. They are not nutrient bombs, but do need to be understood for proper function in an aquarium."

IMHO, Borneman learned the wrong lesson here. To me, this would be like stepping out of bed, onto a rattle snake, and getting bit. Later that day, while laying in a hospital bed, you tell your loved ones that you've learned your lesson. From now on, you'll watch where you put your feet, so you don't step on that rattle snake again.:wildone: No one in their right mind would come to such a conclusion. Most rational minded people would be thinking of ways to remove the rattle snake from their home so they don't have to worry about stepping on it again.

Where sand beds are concerned, it is the detritus/rotting organic matter/filth, that leads to death within our systems. The tiny particles of calcium carbonate themselves pose no danger. Wouldn't it then be logical to remove this detritus/rotting organic matter/filth so we don't have to worry about it getting disturbed, and killing our pets?

 

[gasman059]

I am amazed to hear every one here chiming in as if all sand beds were the same. I keep a remote deep sand bed. Its about ten inches deep, very fine and much older than most experts say they can be kept. I do not vacuum it nor do i disturb it much. It is effective and i can manage the nutrient level in my system to control the growth on the surface of the sand at will. Usually deep sand beds like this are unsucessful long term when attempted in a main display. In the past it was common to attempt them though. When kept in the main display, they usually crashed withn five to ten years. However I have seen them last longer. I have also seen corals die the day after these older deep sand beds were disturbed. I have seen it more than once in several systems. In these same systems normal water changes did not affect the corals imediate health. Usually when i see sand in a main display it is not set up as functioning deep sand bed system. Of course you should have a method to export nutrients from your substrate. Vacuuming it is probably a good idea. But please do not confuse a layer of sand in your main display or even worse in someone elses with a mature deep sand bed system. Anyone who does so will risk the life of their corals.

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I agree with the above- the post refers to stirring DEEP sand Beds and not to what the common hobbyist think its a DEEp sand bed.
A small layer of sand can and whould be stirred evry so often, but stirring a deep sand bed is no different IMHO and IME than adding vinegar or poison directly to your tank.

All environments are different but an acro tank will not tolerate this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

A small layer of sand can and whould be stirred evry so often, but stirring a deep sand bed is no different IMHO and IME than adding vinegar or poison directly to your tank.

Uh, have you missed the trend toward dosing vinegar? I add it every day, and think it a good plan for many tanks.

 

[gasman059]

Uh, have you missed the trend toward dosing vinegar? I add it every day, and think it a good plan for many tanks.

LMAO Sorry Randy I did not mean that literally LOL.

I guess I should have posted something like gasoline LOL
U got me there.:dance:

 

[jsjonesrdh]

In my prior tank, I siphoned my bed from day one. To me, it seems like common sence to keep the organic matter that settles deep within the bed out from the beginning. I the current tank I will be doing the same.

I could understand how beginning to clean a neglected bed may cause spikes in nitrates and phosphates due to the suspended detritus but a clean bed does not cloud a tank in the same manner. In the past I have taken nitrate and phosphate readings after siphoning and I never had any measurable spike in either.

As for loosing some worms and smaller micro fauna, sure I lost a few but I never saw a noticible decline or eradication of species. The amount of these organisms still living within the rock that can not be cleaned was more than enough to keep populations reproducing.