SaraB's 268 Gallon Build¦ Try #3!

I'm extremely lucky and honored to have a reefing friend who is helping me fight the algae battle while I'm on vacation in California. I think I'd be done in the hobby without the assistance he's given me over the last year and a half and I can't thank him enough!

So my new test kits came in after I left and Gary gave them a shot to compare to what my Saliferts had been giving me.

CA was comparable
ALK was 11.2
Mag was 1450

So the ALK and Mag are drastically off and I was quite surprised at the new levels. This also means my bucket test readings for those 2 parameters are off as well and too low.
 
Hang in there Sara, there IS light at the end of the tunnel. Although there may be some casualties (as you've apparently already had) you WILL come out on the other end of this. Just have to stick with it... That's what I had to keep telling myself anyway.

My GHA is now a thing of the past after a very... very... very... did I say very?... long battle!

I was feeling like I was ready to throw in the towel at least a half a dozen or more times through this. Lights out for 3 days and changing my feeding/food handling procedures have made all the difference.

Unfortunately the lights out period really wacked my corals colors out and I lost a few frags and mini colonies but was it worth it? YES

Now I'm just waiting for things to color back up but at least the #$@^*NG hair algae is GONE!~

But don't get me started, lol!~ :spin2:
 
hello again Sara, your base rock is from marco, right? i got some base from them when i started my tank. the battle with the hair is going on in my tank also. i think its the rock leaching something to keep the hair algae going. i have had the hair algae for a long time. i got rid of it for about a month and it came back. no nitrates and my phosphates are .04 on a hanna meter. let me know what you think.

thanks,

john
 
I'm extremely lucky and honored to have a reefing friend who is helping me fight the algae battle while I'm on vacation in California. I think I'd be done in the hobby without the assistance he's given me over the last year and a half and I can't thank him enough!

So my new test kits came in after I left and Gary gave them a shot to compare to what my Saliferts had been giving me.

CA was comparable
ALK was 11.2
Mag was 1450

So the ALK and Mag are drastically off and I was quite surprised at the new levels. This also means my bucket test readings for those 2 parameters are off as well and too low.

I had problems with Salifert test kits giving low ALK readings as well. My kit was over a year old so that could have been the issue. By the way I am starting to notice a couple things with the Vodka dosing. The water is starting to look clearer and the hair algae does not seem to be growing as fast.
 
hello again Sara, your base rock is from marco, right? i got some base from them when i started my tank. the battle with the hair is going on in my tank also. i think its the rock leaching something to keep the hair algae going. i have had the hair algae for a long time. i got rid of it for about a month and it came back. no nitrates and my phosphates are .04 on a hanna meter. let me know what you think.

thanks,

john


Hi John and welcome back!

I honestly don't think it is the Marco Rock causing the issue, at least in my system. I throughly cleaned the rock at the local carwash and then cooked it for 8 months in a 55G Brute trash can while running carbon and phosphate remover in a canister filter. The tank has also been running for 1.5 years and the hair algae has only been in the system now for about 2 months. It started with cyano on the sand which then spread to the rocks and then the hair algae replaced it on the rocks.

I have some other issues I believe that are causing my woes that include a high fishload, over-feeding, under-skimming, not enough flow and a bad choice of substrate and/or depth of the substrate. More on that later tonight!
 
I had problems with Salifert test kits giving low ALK readings as well. My kit was over a year old so that could have been the issue. By the way I am starting to notice a couple things with the Vodka dosing. The water is starting to look clearer and the hair algae does not seem to be growing as fast.

I'm pretty much done with Salifert after this as all my test kits are relatively new with a minimum of 1-2 years before they expire.

Glad to hear you are seeing some improvement with the Vodka dosing. I'm making some other changes to the system before I go down the path of either Prodibio or VGV dosing ... so for now I'll just keep the vodka dosing to me only ;)
 
In addition to the new test kits outlined above, I also got a LaMotte Low Range Nitrate test kit as well. I tested on Saturday and the nitrates were not as bad as I expected and were 20ppm.

So in trying to fix the issues in the tank, I've started to change a few things. I've got the skimmer dialed to skim more wet to help remove some of the nutrients in the tank. I'm also changing out the GFO every other week as suggested along with the carbon. The hair algae is also getting a brushing and the Vortechs are running full tilt for more flow in the display.

Last night I started to remove the DSB from my refugium which is a 75G divided in half. I figure it's become a nutrient sink, so out goes almost all the sand on each side! Here's the left half cleaned and the next half on the right that will get removed tomorrow night.

Fugehalfsand2.jpg


Fugehalfsand1.jpg


I'm also removing the CA reactor media that I used as substrate in my frag tank as that has become a hardened mass of rock and a phosphate sink ... so out that goes as well. This stuff I'm chipping away slowly...and literally!

Fragtankrock.jpg


Hopefully some of these changes get the tank back to more normal.
 
i thought 4"+ dsb's where good for tanks???

I guess who really knows anymore??? Maybe in a display tank where you have more flow but in a refugium with the slower flow, all I can say is the top layer of this sand was extremely dirty after 1.5 years! I took out 8" of sandbed in that left side.
 
I guess who really knows anymore??? Maybe in a display tank where you have more flow but in a refugium with the slower flow, all I can say is the top layer of this sand was extremely dirty after 1.5 years! I took out 8" of sandbed in that left side.
true...i have read that you need enough flow to keep the top clean but not to much to move the sand it self.
 
Nice progress Sara. I've become a believer that sooner or later, all sand beds need to be replaced. My tank became 50% more serile when I removed the fuge and started prodibio.
 
Looks like your off to a good start Sara!

Thanks Brian, I'm trying!

true...i have read that you need enough flow to keep the top clean but not to much to move the sand it self.

That and no lighting would help too to be a nice true remote deep sandbed!

Nice progress Sara. I've become a believer that sooner or later, all sand beds need to be replaced. My tank became 50% more sterile when I removed the fuge and started prodibio.

Thanks Mark, I just finished up with removing the sand from right side of the fuge. I still need to finish up the frag tank and then off to the display to get the CA reactor media off the top of my sandbed in there. Prodibio I think is next for me ;)



I had some bad HA algae growth on Sunday on some eggcrate that divides the 2 sides of the fuge and I was surprised to find it mostly gone when I went to work on the other side tonight. I also think the tank is looking just a tad bit better. I also had gotten 2 sea cucumbers 2 weeks ago for the sandbed in the display and I'm surprised to find both of them in the rockwork tonight. Maybe they like Hair Algae??? I thought it seems extremely strange that they are in the rock and not the sand!
 
I only read the last two pages so sorry if I ask a question or two that may already be addressed.

First of all, it looks like you had a good run for 1.5 years so that rules out any obvious oversight. It looks like it was just your time with a buildup of organics and older substrate (nutrient sink).

Is the "hair algae" bryopsis or derbasia? Bryopsis is the feather-like one that grows in clumps with a single stem-like base. Derbesia is the more common one with finer filaments that attach directly to surfaces rather than clumps, looking more like hair and less feathery. You treat them both the same, with the exception that bryopsis is easier to physically remove. Derbesia is a little more tenacious as it has a strong holdfast.

Raising your magnesium (slowly) to 1800 ppm with Kent Tech M (magnesium sulphate & magnesium chloride) can be a miracle cure. Other magnesium supplements with magnesium sulphate alone aren't as effective. The idea is it gives the algae too much of a good thing, interfering with chlorophyll production. Apparently a woman from SeaChem gave an eloquent talk at MACNA about how this does not work, but I've seen it work several times and you can read more about it here. http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1113109&perpage=25&pagenumber=1

Raising your alk level to 11 is another good practice, but it looks like you are there with the new test kits. Just keep buying new test kits until you get the answers you want :) The added benefit of a higher alk/Kh is it fosters the growth of coraline algae which "should" outcompete nuisance algae in a "healthy tank".

Removing the substrate and manually removing as much algae as possible gives you a level playing field. Nuisance algae can literally feed itself and live independent of nutrients in the water. Your test kit measures free phosphates (inorganic phosphate) only. There is a substantial amount of organic phosphate bound in the algae and calcarious (calcium-based) surfaces in the tank. Simply "starving the algae to death" will not happen. Shutting the lights off for a few weeks will, but it doesn't work when you have corals. Some recommend shutting the lights off for an hour in the middle of the day to interfere with the photosynthetic compensation point, but I don't think it will help much. Lowering the photo period to 5 or 6 hours is a good compromise.

A diatom filter is a good tool for removing algae spores and free-floating filaments while you are manually cleaning the tank. Algae reproduces and releases nutrients when it is trimmed/torn. I use Ket Pro-Clear (coagulant) to bind the free-floating algae and make it easier to collect or simply choke out. Don't overdose it as it can deplete the dissolved oxygen rate. Many aquarists overlook the value of a mechanical filter. Protein skimmers don't pick up the slack, so your substrate becomes the default mechanical "sediment" filter. Filter socks/bags are also ineffective with exception to short usage while cleaning the tank. Mechanical filtration can be as simple as a sponge in the overflow box or as elaborate as a 25 micron canister filter. OceanClear has a unit with an Aqua UV brand 18 watt UV sterilizer built into it.

Have you checked your RO/DI source water? Sometimes a faulty cartridge or membrane can cause you grief. What is the effluent TDS reading?

Another common cause is residual Co2 from the calcium reactor. Switch to chemical dosing for a few months if possible. This is easier than troubleshooting the reactor in some cases. Co2 is the ultimate algae catalyst and you may be adding it without knowing. Make sure the reactor has a large second pass media chamber. You can even use a 5 gallon bucket of aragonite to be sure you have neutralized all of the carbonic acid (Co2). Dosing calcium is always a good thing because calcium bonds with free phosphate to form calcium phosphate as it falls out of solution.

Carbon dosing may be a good long term move, but I think it will only feed the algae at this point in time. Photosynthesis is carried out through carbon fixing. That carbon can come from your calcium reactor or a vodka bottle. Ascorbic acid may be a safe way of introducing a carbon source http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1252294. Alternatively, SeaChem's calcium gluconate provides calcium and a carbon source (sugar). Once again, this may feed the fire but it kills two birds with one bottle.

Some people swear by sea hares, but I haven't had success with them eating derbasia or bryopsis. The algae eating fish and inverts like tangs, blennies and urchins and snails will not keep up with the demand... or is it supply :) They certainly don't hurt though. Bryopsis is more toxic than derbasia and subsequently less palatable.

Did you look at your bulbs as a source of the problem? Older bulbs can have a colour shift that encourages nuisance algae. Other than changing the bulbs, raising the lights 6-12" may ease your pain.

It's great that you are using carbon frequently. Just make sure that that isn't a source of phosphate or nitrate for that matter. Some carbon is activated with phosphoric acid, while other animal bone sourced carbon naturally contains phosphate and nitrate. You can test RO/DI water for Po4 & No3 then add a few granules of carbon to each vial. This isn't the most accurate testing method, but it may show higher readings. The easy way of assurance is to buy premium brands. It's just like buying a $2700 designer hand bag, you know the zipper won't stick :)

You should fine tune your refugium to outcompete with the nuisance algae. Install a 6500 K MHL bulb over chaetomorpha and gracileria. Caulerpa may even be a good idea as it grows the fastest. As long as you run a steady reverse photoperiod of 16 hrs per day, it won't reproduce sexually and crash. A prefilter keeps it from reaching the display tank. Make sure your refugium algae bed is shallow so there are no dark/shaded spots below the algae mass where it can slowly die-off and release its nutrient catch.

Wet skimming and adding ozone to your skimmer is another approach. You can think of it as a passive water change. This method is particularly useful during and after your daily nuisance algae harvest.

If the algae is concentrated on a few rocks in particular, try to ascertain why. Is this an area where detritus or food settles? Is there more or less flow there? As an aside, I agree with the more flow the better idea, but technically adding flow to an algae problem just delivers more nutrients and Co2 to the algae. Have you blasted your rock out with a strong powerhead? You may have billows of detritus trapped in there. The more algae that grows and subsequently dies, the more detritus will accumulate, and so goes the cycle. Flip the rocks upside-down if you cannot remove them for any reason. Taking them out and scrubbing & rinsing in freshwater helps a lot. I use a big denture brush or a vegetable scrubber. Power washing also works.

Are you thoroughly rinsing frozen foods with RO/DI water? Are you adding garlic (high in phosphates BTW)?

If the tank is FUBAR you should move the corals to a quarantine/hospital tank and completely overhaul the display. Bleaching the rock to sterilize it then spraying it with a weak acid (even vinegar) to remove bound phosphate will give you a new start.

Maybe I don't need to make the Dr. House call :)
 
Thanks Brian, I'm trying!
I had some bad HA algae growth on Sunday on some eggcrate that divides the 2 sides of the fuge and I was surprised to find it mostly gone when I went to work on the other side tonight.

Some people believe that eggcrate leaches phosphate. There is too much empirical data to ignore it. Some say the problem goes away if they switch to black eggcrate. It could just be the sterile light reflecting surface that is begging to be invaded by algae, or perhaps the polystyrene is leaching heavy metals or phosphate. The best test wold be to switch to acrylic eggcrate. It's triple the price, but much stronger and it would put this question to bed once and for all. You can find it at electrical wholesalers or at least order it through them.

In your situation, you want to solve the problem more than find the source, so yank the eggcrate for good measure. While you're at it, remove any other "weird" non-food grade items that may be in your tank (ABS pipe etc.).
 
Some people believe that eggcrate leaches phosphate. There is too much empirical data to ignore it. Some say the problem goes away if they switch to black eggcrate. It could just be the sterile light reflecting surface that is begging to be invaded by algae, or perhaps the polystyrene is leaching heavy metals or phosphate. The best test wold be to switch to acrylic eggcrate. It's triple the price, but much stronger and it would put this question to bed once and for all. You can find it at electrical wholesalers or at least order it through them.

In your situation, you want to solve the problem more than find the source, so yank the eggcrate for good measure. While you're at it, remove any other "weird" non-food grade items that may be in your tank (ABS pipe etc.).


Thank you so much Shawn for stopping by my thread!

I'll start with the easy one to respond to first ;)

The strip of eggcrate I was referring above is a 2 foot x 2 inch strip that is at the top of the refugium glass divider to keep the macro algae in the left side. Yes, it is white eggcrate, but it's been siliconed into place when the divider was built and would be a pain to try and remove and replace.

I do have bryopsis that has recently appeared only in 1 of my tanks, which is the frag tank. It is actually growing on the black eggcrate that is in there. I do plan on removing the eggcrate, but I'm waiting on the Derbesia to be eradicated from the display tank before I place the corals that are on the eggcrate into it as it seems any coral the Derbesia touches, it kills. I'll keep up on my Magnesium dosing with Tech M to help kill that type off.

So in summary of my algae, the Derbesia is only in the display tanks (268G & 45G) and the Bryopsis is only in the frag tank and there is only friendly Chaetomorpha in the refugium and nothing in the surges or sump.



I'll respond to the longer thread later as I actually have some work I need to get finished here ;)
 
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Last night Gary and I spent 3.5 hours working on the display tanks (268G & 45G). I worked on rocks that could be removed from the system and I scrubbed the rocks with a stainless steel brush and toothbrush to remove the Hair Algae. Gary worked in the displays with a vegetable brush and scrubbed the large rock that could not be removed of their hair algae. He also used a Maxijet 1200 to blow the detritus off the rocks and in the crevices of the rockwork.

We also installed a new 5k compact light over the fuge to run 24/7 for now to light the Chaetomorpha.

The lights recently came on and it's nice to look at a tank with no hair algae in it ... hopefully I've got a leg up on it now ;)

Tonight after helping Gary with his new rockwork, I'll change out the carbon, gfo and replace the kalk in my kalk reactor.
 
I only read the last two pages so sorry if I ask a question or two that may already be addressed.

A diatom filter is a good tool for removing algae spores and free-floating filaments while you are manually cleaning the tank. Algae reproduces and releases nutrients when it is trimmed/torn. I use Ket Pro-Clear (coagulant) to bind the free-floating algae and make it easier to collect or simply choke out. Don't overdose it as it can deplete the dissolved oxygen rate. Many aquarists overlook the value of a mechanical filter. Protein skimmers don't pick up the slack, so your substrate becomes the default mechanical "sediment" filter. Filter socks/bags are also ineffective with exception to short usage while cleaning the tank. Mechanical filtration can be as simple as a sponge in the overflow box or as elaborate as a 25 micron canister filter. OceanClear has a unit with an Aqua UV brand 18 watt UV sterilizer built into it.

Have you checked your RO/DI source water? Sometimes a faulty cartridge or membrane can cause you grief. What is the effluent TDS reading?

Another common cause is residual Co2 from the calcium reactor. Switch to chemical dosing for a few months if possible.

Carbon dosing may be a good long term move, but I think it will only feed the algae at this point in time.

Did you look at your bulbs as a source of the problem? Older bulbs can have a colour shift that encourages nuisance algae. Other than changing the bulbs, raising the lights 6-12" may ease your pain.

It's great that you are using carbon frequently. Just make sure that that isn't a source of phosphate or nitrate for that matter. Some carbon is activated with phosphoric acid, while other animal bone sourced carbon naturally contains phosphate and nitrate.

Are you thoroughly rinsing frozen foods with RO/DI water? Are you adding garlic (high in phosphates BTW)?

Maybe I don't need to make the Dr. House call :)

Not a problem only reading the last 2 pages, I just appreciate your input and suggestions!

Here's my response to the direct questions above:

I' m not exactly sure what is a diatom filter is? Could you share a link to one? I do currently use filter socks which I had been changing out every couple days. This week I've starting changing daily as it is getting pretty dirty after all the work that is being done in the tank. Could I place a sponge into the filter sock? You obviously have not seen the back of the tank to know that there's an octopus of piping attached, so getting into the external overflow boxes to place or remove sponges would be an absolute nightmare! I added 2 pictures at the bottom so you can see what I'm talking about.

I'm good on the RO/DI water with a 0-2 tds reading. That's one of the easiest ones to fix and monitor as I had learned my lesson prior trusting a faulty inline meter!

I'm not running my CA reactor yet and have been dosing 2-part for the last 4 months. I just changed from the Bulk Reef Supply products over to B-Ionic 2-part just last week.

The product I was looking at for carbon dosing was Prodibio. We travel a lot and I like the aspect of not having to dose the product every single day. I'm also using the Tropic Marin Bio-Actif salt that has some carbon element in it as well. I've fine tuned my skimmer to wet skim as it was not performing as well as it used to due to the pipes getting slime coated!

All my bulbs are only 4 months old, so it should not be them. I run the halides 6 hours a day and I'm using Radium 20K's and I supplement with actinic VHO's 11 hours a day.

I do use high quality carbons, so I think I'm okay there. I'm getting ready to order some more from Bulk Reef Supply this week as I'm going through it like mad!

I'm better than some with the frozen foods, but I don't rinse with RO/DI water. What I do is melt the foods and then drain all the excess melted water off before I feed the fish. I guess I could throw a bottle of RO/DI water into the fridge so that I have it available to rinse!

Guess you don't need to make a Dr. House call ;) Safe travels and I hope you enjoy your time in Chicago!


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