TheFishTeen
New member
Im just a little baffled by the slow revolution time of the actuated ball valve. Theres no way to speed it up? For $450 per valve, I would expect there to be a way to speed up the motor.
Servo's 850 Gallon Upgrade
- Thread starter SERVO
- Start date
budisetiawan
New member
amazing
CyclistMT
More Idiot Than Savant
Fish Teen, Feel free to speak up.
Surge devices are done using either gravity or mechanical valves.
Having implemented two different types of surges on two different tanks now, I have to respectfully disagree with most of what was said above about actuated ball valve surges.
Using an actuated ball valve does indeed induce more mechanics into the set up which does add more items that can fail. However, my previous surge was built using a modified Borneman design that also had mechanical aspects which would have eventually failed too. Replacement parts would have been cheap though.
Cost is definitely higher but no more than a Vortech would cost. I won't argue which is better becuase frankly, surge or Vortech will work well. I happen to prefer the surge. Asahi is the brand that I have but I was strongly considering the Hayward as well.
This is overstated. There is a hum but even my return pumps are louder than my surge valve.
This may be true for some valves but mine has a cycle time of 5 seconds and the Hayward is 3 seconds. Plenty fast to acuate a decent surge.
Using an actuated ball valve allows you to control when the surge ends. My timer relay closes the valve before the last of the water pours out thus not allowing any air into the surge line.
My valve is 25% duty cycle rated. As long as it's off at least 75% of the time and actually only in motion 25% of the time it's fine. This is not a problem for me given the time it takes to fill the surge tank. Will it fail? Yes. How soon? Well that's probably better answered by someone who has used them in many different installations. H2OENG can probably help us out there. Honestly if I can get 5 years out of it in a saltwater enviornment, I'll feel Ok about that.
The ball valve makes a bit of noise when it actuates but the surge itself is completely silent. By shuting the surge off before it fully empties there is no flushing sound. The massive blast of water going over the overflow is another story but that's an overflow problem not a problem with the surge itself. But, I'll admit, that's probably splitting hairs.
At the end of the day for me:
Actuated ball valves = $$.
A completely bubbleless surge = priceless.
TheFishTeen
New member
I knew it! Thanks for the confirmation.
Outerbank
New member
Dang Ryan!!! Glad to hear about the upgrade!! You mentined this tank the last time we talked. I haven't been on RC for about a year.
You know me, I keep it simple. My tanks are just LR/DSB refugium based systems that only use activated charcoal, blue foam filter media, calcium reactors and kalk. I found that charcoal works much better than the old days when I had a monster PS (I began the AC use after an excellent talk on AC and PS at MACNA).
I have ideas, and will give you a call.
If it was me, I would make that 400 gallon tank of yours a refugium with a 5-6 inch DSB (we can get it from the coast) and I would have some sort of passive return overflow system into about 1.5 to 2 gallon of easily accessable AC. I agree, forget the multiple closed loop system. Throw in about 3 750-1000 GPH return pumps to the top of the DT, and that is about it. No need for massive returns. I wouldn't bother with the seaswirls as the overall return flow will be pretty small. I am not conviced dead spots are all that bad in the tank, so I don't worry about every millimeter of the tank receiving circulation as long as there is plenty of variable speed flow throughout the water column. My detrus just accumulates in the slower flow areas and the detrivores take care of all the waste. I haven't siphoned my tank in years. Just never add treatment chemicals to the tank.
I haven't read much on lighting in a couple years. I am just using 400 watt Hamilton 10Ks and VHOs. Things look and grow great. Baseline solar tubes with MHs over patches of SPS corals and anemonees may be the answer. I have not kept up on LEDs. Perhaps 4-5 400 watt MHs and LEDS in between. Some type of motorized track would be very cool, but now I am leaving the "keep it simple" theme.
I would think heat will be the biggest issue. Can you vent all the lamp heat through the ceiling and then outdoors? The simple system I use has no high energy pumps. This helps with the heat problem and the pocketbook.
I can't wait to see it!! I'll be glad to help if needed!
Scott L
You know me, I keep it simple. My tanks are just LR/DSB refugium based systems that only use activated charcoal, blue foam filter media, calcium reactors and kalk. I found that charcoal works much better than the old days when I had a monster PS (I began the AC use after an excellent talk on AC and PS at MACNA).
I have ideas, and will give you a call.
If it was me, I would make that 400 gallon tank of yours a refugium with a 5-6 inch DSB (we can get it from the coast) and I would have some sort of passive return overflow system into about 1.5 to 2 gallon of easily accessable AC. I agree, forget the multiple closed loop system. Throw in about 3 750-1000 GPH return pumps to the top of the DT, and that is about it. No need for massive returns. I wouldn't bother with the seaswirls as the overall return flow will be pretty small. I am not conviced dead spots are all that bad in the tank, so I don't worry about every millimeter of the tank receiving circulation as long as there is plenty of variable speed flow throughout the water column. My detrus just accumulates in the slower flow areas and the detrivores take care of all the waste. I haven't siphoned my tank in years. Just never add treatment chemicals to the tank.
I haven't read much on lighting in a couple years. I am just using 400 watt Hamilton 10Ks and VHOs. Things look and grow great. Baseline solar tubes with MHs over patches of SPS corals and anemonees may be the answer. I have not kept up on LEDs. Perhaps 4-5 400 watt MHs and LEDS in between. Some type of motorized track would be very cool, but now I am leaving the "keep it simple" theme.
I would think heat will be the biggest issue. Can you vent all the lamp heat through the ceiling and then outdoors? The simple system I use has no high energy pumps. This helps with the heat problem and the pocketbook.
I can't wait to see it!! I'll be glad to help if needed!
Scott L
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bbaz123456
New member
I love that filter system!
About the surges, what do you guys think about a simple design of an extra basin slowly fed off return line with a sump pump on it? It may not be a super fast surge but should be able to pump quite a few gallons in a short period. I don't know the specs on the pump I have now or how well it would hold up but I was assured by a trusted plumbing wholesaler that it would hold up to saltwater. We'll see after I pull it out after its been in there for a while. I ruined two standard sump pumps in less than a year from dumping salt wastewater into the sump crock
About the surges, what do you guys think about a simple design of an extra basin slowly fed off return line with a sump pump on it? It may not be a super fast surge but should be able to pump quite a few gallons in a short period. I don't know the specs on the pump I have now or how well it would hold up but I was assured by a trusted plumbing wholesaler that it would hold up to saltwater. We'll see after I pull it out after its been in there for a while. I ruined two standard sump pumps in less than a year from dumping salt wastewater into the sump crock
bbaz123456
New member
I love that filter system!
About the surges, what do you guys think about a simple design of an extra basin slowly fed off return line with a sump pump on it? It may not be a super fast surge but should be able to pump quite a few gallons in a short period. I don't know the specs on the pump I have now or how well it would hold up but I was assured by a trusted plumbing wholesaler that it would hold up to saltwater. We'll see after I pull it out after its been in there for a while. I ruined two standard sump pumps in less than a year from dumping salt wastewater into the sump crock
About the surges, what do you guys think about a simple design of an extra basin slowly fed off return line with a sump pump on it? It may not be a super fast surge but should be able to pump quite a few gallons in a short period. I don't know the specs on the pump I have now or how well it would hold up but I was assured by a trusted plumbing wholesaler that it would hold up to saltwater. We'll see after I pull it out after its been in there for a while. I ruined two standard sump pumps in less than a year from dumping salt wastewater into the sump crock
Outerbank
New member
H i Ryan,
Geothermal sounds interesting. I just hate pipework. The less pipework the better. I assume geothermal involves a lot of piping. Piping runs the risks of corrosion, leakage, blockage, air lock, etc.
I would make sure I had reduncy plans/backup systems for cooling such an awesome tank in our hot Texas summers. You will have a built in generator which is great, but this will not help if the cooling system or air conditioning to the tank side of the house fails. I wouldn't keep the water temp too low simply because the tank would likely have a quicker temperature spike if cooling capacity is lost. I don't like too much artificial intervention (it leads, IMO, to more catastrophic crashes when the system fails, thus you end up reduntly backing up everything).
bbaz123456
New member
That sounds a little more like it
bbaz123456
New member
Agreed on the redundancy. But geothermal can be a very simple design if you're just talking about using it as a way to transfer heat to ground. I just have a loop of approx 200' of 1/2" pex buried a few feet underground with a small circulator pump going to a coil of about 50' of pex coiled up in the sump. It does a fairly good job for me but is more of a backup plan. As far as I know it has only came on twice but I live in Ohio not Texas, threw out my metal halides a few years ago for LEDs, and keep my central geothermal A/C set at 73.
If I were you I would definitely be throwing in a few loops of pex piping in the overdig before your foundation is back filled and any other open trenches. Probably go with 3/4" pipe though. If nothing else, it could be used as a first stage of cooling and relieve some of the load off the chiller. And the relief off your electric bill would easily cover the cost of piping
SERVO
New member
Fish Teen, Feel free to speak up.
Surge devices are done using either gravity or mechanical valves.
Gravity is great, because there is nothing to fail. It always works, and nothing can break in the system to cause an issue. Gravity systems down fall is you have to push all the air out of the pipe - which causes bubbles. There is usually a burp at the start of the surge, when the water finally overwhelms the air and pushes the air out of the pipe.
And then when the surge finishes there is a flush noise at the end of the cycle when the water falls below of the intake in the surge tank.
The costs involved with a Gravity surge is a pump, a tank, and a minimal amount of plumbing parts that can be found a home depot.
My surge is 26g, it sits on a second story above the tank. I engineered a muffler system for the pipe, and my surge makes no noise inside the house. Outside where the surge tank is, when the surge finishes it sounds like a wave breaking on a beach.
With 2" plumbing, all sweeps - no elbows, a 10'+ drop, 26 gallons falls in about 6 seconds and is a dramatic effect/impact in a 400g reef.
Now with Mechanical, you can overcome the bubbles, which is an issue with gravity. But now you add bits and parts that can fail. You need float switches, timers, overflow sensors, and the mechanical valves.
Major difference out of the gate, is the costs of the Actuated ball valves. Depending on the plumbing size the typical Spears / Hayward and Jandy are pricey toys.
But outside of initial cost, and longevity they bring their own issues. First off depending where your surge tank is located (Mine is outside) the valves make noise. The sound is like a plane starting a jet engine (not loud but that kind of droning noise).
Plus the cycle time of the ball valves is slow. Because they have to be able to open and close valves under heavy pressure they are slow and torque based. Some valves have a cycle time of 30 seconds from open to close.
That means the surge starts as a trickle and slowly builds up flow until the valve is fully opened... 30 seconds of draining water. You're going to need a very large surge tank, so that by the time the valve is fully open there is still enough water in the surge tank for there to be something to surge.
Now when that surge tank runs out of water its going to pull air at the end of its cycle, perhaps depending on your plumbing even a vortex, like you get when draining a bath tub, so you are still going to get air bubbles at the end of the surge cycle.
So the way to avoid this is to close the pipe before the surge tank runs dry. So now you have to cycle the valve again - another 30 seconds while still having enough water in the surge tank to keep water in the plumbing and not air.
Even if you had a gigantic surge tank, and set up a timer system where the valves open and close. Then next issue you have is longevity. Actuated ball valves are not really designed for continuous use. So depending on your flow rate into the surge tank.... how frequently are you going to need the valves to cycle.
My second story tank is filled with a Rio Hyperflow 32. And my surge cycles about every 90 seconds.
Now, pneumatics would be the valve of choice because they have very quick response times. So they can open and close in the matter of a second or two. Which is the perfect on/off time for a surge tank. To keep you bubble free in your display tank.
But the pneumatics also have their issues. One is the cost. Two, you need a compressor to keep them supplied with pressure. Three the noise when they cycle. Four. Because they operate so quickly, the water flow in the plumbing changes quickly and it can cause your plumbing to Slam... Loudly like a shudder in your house.
I am sure there are many threads of people who have done different surges who all claim theirs is the best.
But before you implement one, you need to really try to see it in action. And then I would recommend building a mock-up to see if that design works for you. People who have taken the time to design a surge tank for themselves are very proud in what they have done, and will usually overlook the downsides to their design --- bubbles, noise, shuddering plumbing.
And then there is the wife factor...
In most applications you can't run a surge system 24/7... They all make some bit of noise and depending on the location to where you sleep or live your life the surge tank needs to be on a cycle around your waking hours.
Your system sounds great! I can't wait to get in touch with you once I am able to.
From my research, I've come to the same conclusion; ABV's are very $$$ and can produce a near bubble less surge. Very few people in this hobby have them set up due to multiple factors, the good thing is that those that do, know how great surge systems are and are very passionate about them. I do however fear the mechanical factor. This is a volcano to me. Sooner or later... But as with everything in this hobby, over engineer, plan it out and when you think you have it set, plan it out again. Especially, for big projects like this.
You know you are going to be one of my hired guns! You and Jeannette can be the first to sleep in the guest quarters:bounce2:
I'm almost positive that I am going geothermal for a multitude of reasons. It will pay for itself in the utility of my house, plus if it's 100 degrees outside, I'll be able to pull down the temperature of some of my outdoor living space by 10 to 15 degrees! All by using a fans!!!
I go back and forth about the sea swirls as I do with most things.
I think I'm going to add the sola tubes above the tank. It may be a good room light more than anything, but a little natural light should help out. If it becomes too intense, i can always dim my lights a few %, but I'm going LED.
Interesting to consider using a sump pump. I am going to plumb the surge off of one of 2 Sequence hammer heads that I will have coming out of the sump. Very durable except for their POS seals. *Can't really blame them it is salt water*
The room will be heated and cooled with geothermal, while it will also help keep the tank cooled. Given the fact that I'll have LED, I'll have minimal heat produced in the room. I may have to buy a in line heater. I'm actually worried about it being too cool than too warm. I agree with the concept simplicity is the most of complexity, but this system will be 1/1,000,000 (If I do it right). As for the piping, it will be out of the way, and if I have to have any of it in the foundation, I will.
I can't wait to brainstorm. Are you guys planning to take a trip out here soon? If so, we can grab some dinner and chat. I'll give you a ring.
Thanks so much for your input. I'm entering new territory here, but from what I've researched, I won't regret the upfront costs. So the few loops of per piping that you recommend, are they to be placed right under the tank room. At this point, I'm not even sure if I'll need a chiller.
I bet you can. It can become the American Bidet.
here is the latest sketch plans for the room
I'll have to figure out where I'm going to put all of this S*#T in the room!!:crazy1:
BigOldReef
New member
I read Cyclist MT post and didn't realize the actuators had gotten so much faster. I have used Hayward and Jandy motorized valves for the past 20 years. I have a Jandy that switches my Geothermal system on/off line and it's a 20 second cycle.
After reading Cyclist MT post I ordered one of the 2" Hayward's with a 2.5 second cycle time. I can retro fit it to my existing surge tank. Should be here in a week or so. I have a busy work schedule, and I have to find time to build the timing circuit and overflow cut off. But I'll post my new 'experiences' when I get it done.
After reading Cyclist MT post I ordered one of the 2" Hayward's with a 2.5 second cycle time. I can retro fit it to my existing surge tank. Should be here in a week or so. I have a busy work schedule, and I have to find time to build the timing circuit and overflow cut off. But I'll post my new 'experiences' when I get it done.
SERVO
New member
I read your post and instinctively started to look for the like button. I need to stay off of that web site! This makes me really excited! It is priceless for me to hear the advice of someone who has an in-depth knowledge of surge systems using different ways to trigger the influx of water. I hope you love it!:spin3: Where did you order the ABV from?
Outerbank
New member
Ryan, I can't wait to see the new tank and house:beer:!! Everything is going to be awesome. I can help anyway you would like. We would be glad to break in the guest quarters!! We will be in Allen, Texas this Saturday and Motorsport Ranch south of Ft. Worth on July 21st. I have picked up an additional crazy hobby but it is fun:dance:! Let me know if you are available any of these times.
BigOldReef
New member
Hayward Automated Ball Valve arrived, hopefully the timer will come in todays mail, and I will have time to play over the holiday weekend.
Valve is big and heavy. Haven't plugged it in yet.
Valve is big and heavy. Haven't plugged it in yet.
BigOldReef
New member
Timer relay arrived late this evening. Wired it up on the coffee table. Everything looks good. I just need to run to Depot to pick up a weatherproof box to house the timer relay and wiring. And I want to pickup a small relay so the Apex can cycle the valve when the pump is off to drain the surge tank so there isn't any water sitting outside for long periods.
BigOldReef
New member
I finally got some time off to hookup the Automated Ball Valve. It's a great option. The cycle time is good, it's located outside so the noise isn't an issue. Since my surge tank sits outside and upstairs, I had to add an extra relay circuit so that my Apex can empty the surge tank when the surge tank isn't running so the water doesn't sit in the surge tank. I don't run my surge 24/7.
Don't mean to de-rail your thread any further on this topic. I'll post a thread in either DIY or the Big tank forum showing videos of the two different surge styles.
CyclistMT -- Thanks for the insight!
Dave
Don't mean to de-rail your thread any further on this topic. I'll post a thread in either DIY or the Big tank forum showing videos of the two different surge styles.
CyclistMT -- Thanks for the insight!
Dave
SERVO
New member
Dave, don't feel like you are derailing the thread. I'd love to see links of your surge system here.
So I'm starting the design for the room today with the architect. The first obstacle that we are addressing is to have access over the tank. If the tank will be 5 feet front to back, I'm going to have a hell of a time repositioning anything in the tank. The solution is a powder coated angle iron tract that I can position a plastic resin "board" on that is both removable while I can manipulate it laterally to work inside the tank.
I think I have decided on a side external overflow to have the returns as close to the sump. I am going to try to "sink" as much of the plumbing into the floor as I can. I'll start to get more progress to this daunting project finally.
So I'm starting the design for the room today with the architect. The first obstacle that we are addressing is to have access over the tank. If the tank will be 5 feet front to back, I'm going to have a hell of a time repositioning anything in the tank. The solution is a powder coated angle iron tract that I can position a plastic resin "board" on that is both removable while I can manipulate it laterally to work inside the tank.
I think I have decided on a side external overflow to have the returns as close to the sump. I am going to try to "sink" as much of the plumbing into the floor as I can. I'll start to get more progress to this daunting project finally.
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