show me your under tank sump et al.

Thanks y'all I'm still torn. But, energy efficiciency my primary goal. Its nice to have a basement "lab", but its also kind of a slop-fest.

I've done both and I really still can't decide on a proper course of action here. A 4x3 foot print really does afford quite a bit of flexibility.

Keep the pix coming. Thanks thus far!
 
I just did a quick measurement just for curiosity sake.I have a total of 12 sqft.
Got everything in their including a 14 gal rubbermaid.

Good luck with whatever you decide.
 
I have almost no room under my stand for anything. I have to tilt my skimmer cup like 45 degrees to get it out. I really wish I could do a basement sump. The wife and I want to move into another house in a few years though. I don't really want to blow holes in the wall or floor because of this. Not to mention, I've already taken over the basement with breeding setups and a RBTA prop tank.

I also have a computer power supply under the stand that is hot-wired to run 4 computer fans in my canopy.


The water comes in from the display on the right side of the sump. The protein skimmer is in this side. A couple baffles separate this compartment with the refugium. I have some live rock rubble and chaeto in the middle refugium compartment. The phosban reactor and return pump (Eheim 1260) are in the far left chamber. I also have a pH probe and thermometer in the middle chamber.

I kind of wish I went with a 20 long instead of a 29. It would be really nice to be able to have a little more height between the sump and top of the stand.

DSC_0524.jpg
 
The main problem I ran into with an under tank sump, was sump height. Over flowing paranoia combined with being able to access the skimmer created problems. Need to find the perfect compromise of water volume and accessibility.

Ultimately, I feel confident with an under tank design.
 
You really have me thinking; I'm hoping for the same tank as you, if not the 5x3. Electrical use is major consideration for me, and its very hard planning a system with a basement fish room using less than $60 per month electricity. I'm thinking the best plan would make use of a same floor closet sump room; the biggest obstacle I see is bringing electricity to it, on the other hand its a great chance do a fresh wiring with plenty of service. I don't have this option. The biggest thing holding me back from an under tank setup is cabinet height. I like keeping my tank at eye level while seated, I also haven't the option of doing a floor to ceiling install, so skimmer selection becomes very narrow for a ~300g tv system. Another major concern I have about keeping it all in the living room is my other hates the constant presence of buckets in the room. I do like how Gary's sump looks like its at least 36" off the floor, and perhaps directly below the dt keeping head loss minimal. Anyway, here is an outdated pic of my sump crammed in under my Oceanic 40g stretched hex; I now have the a good bit of the substrate from the dt when I went bb making a dsb in the fuge side. I get away with using 2 mj1200 to supply the tank, and each feeds their own TLF Rx (gac, gfo) hob-ing the dt.
sump.jpg
 
OK, the economics of this doesn't make sense. I've had both and there's no contest between a basement setup versus an under tank setup. Let's talk about the power savings first though, 100-200 watts continuous at $ .14 per kwh, is like $10-20 a month. For a reef tank, that just doesn't seem like it should be a factor but that's another argument alltogether. Do T5's instead of MH or use LED's for your sunrise/sunset cycle to be more green. Stock your tank with corals that don't need as much light and run your main lights less. Your basement is cooler in the summer, so you won't need a chiller, huge power savings there.

First of all, it's impossible to fit EVERYTHING under the tank. You'll still need a cabinet near the tank for items that aren't required to be "under" the tank. If you go basement, you can then fit all your food and ancillary items under the tank without having to stuff them in tiny hiding places.

Then, there's the issue of water damage from normal maintenance, accidents, salt on the floor and walls, possibly even into an electrical outlet causing a short and a fire, like what happened at my orthodontists office. Due to the cramped space, you might bump a fitting, move something accidenally, not notice and you will have a disaster that doesn't just take down your tank, but possibly your living room too! I once had a GFCI trip in my under tank setup and the GFCI outlets were tucket up underneath at a place where my parents couldn't see them. This caused my ATO pump to not work and they didn't notice until the sucking sound in my sump from the main return pump. They had to go to my house every day to manually add RODI until I got home from my business trip, instead of the every 2-3 days I told them they needed to go there. I was on the phone with them trying to get them to troubleshoot it with me and I told them to push the button on the outlet with the light on, but they were too old to bend down enough to see it, tucked up underneath. Had that happened in the basement, it probably wouldn't have happened because it was caused by salt mist, but anyways, they would have been able to find the outlet and reset it.

I've had both and the basement sump and "lab" setup as you call it is infinitely better. You work standing instead of crouching. You have a utility sink nearby to clean your gear and dump waste. A BIG thing that guys may not notice, but a woman's sense of smell tends to be much more sensitive, is that my wife can smell my skimmer, algae, or other organic waste the 2nd it touches the air. I have to practically put my nose in it.

The main problem I had was that it was just really tough to clean the skimmer. I actually clean pull my skimmer out every 2 weeks and clean the neck, under the tank, I probably wouldn't ever do that, it's too messy.

I could probably list a plethora of more reasons I prefer it, but I just wanted to chime in and raise the argument that if you can do a basement setup or a "fish room", do it. Somebody please tell me some good reasons not too.
 
So im designing my sump right now and im absolutely paranoid about overflowing, any tips or suggestions so i dont fail miserably?

Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but the basics are this:
1) make sure your return and drain lines can handle the flow you want to put through them
2) when you fill your sump, make sure there is enough room left to handle any backflow from the display should the power go out and/or the return pump fails. The easiest way to do this is to setup all your plumbing, get everything connected and running, then turn off the return pump. Allow the water to drain back into the sump. Then fill the sump the rest of the way. Turn the return pump back on, let everything run for a few minutes until water levels level out. Now mark the water level in your sump. That is the MAX it can hold WITHOUT overflowing.
 
A couple other things you can do are to use an optical sensor or other water level sensor (float etc...) and using the levels spoken about by jacksonpt, place the sensor at or just below your MAX sump level (before backflow from tank syphens in) as an emergency shutoff of your return pump, should a snail or something restrict your return flow.

Realize that the lowest point where your water returns into your tank is where your tank will syphon down too. If you use a flexible return line, like mine, and you want less water in your sump, just raise the height of your return line a little. Depending on the size of your tank that could be a lot of gallons.

You could also use a check valve on your return pump. REALIZE that this is FAR from fool proof. It's really a convenience, they can fail, although I've never had one fail in 6 years. Get a high quality clear one, so you can look at it. Clean it once a year and I replace mine every 2-3 years. For the $10-20 they cost it's nice to know yours is new, the seal is in good shape and it's fully functional. I really use mine as a convenience now just to keep my sump at the same level so I don't have to turn off my skimmer with the main pump. Sometimes I used to forget and my skimmer would overflow and my skimmate would empty into the sump.

I also have a water sensor hooked up to my Aquatronica controller. I have it shut off ALL pumps in and around my sump (I have 5), but leave on my in tank circulation. It also sends me an SMS and Email right away. I've had it trigger once when I had a leak in my RODI connection. That's always great to know, even though all my equipment is in my basement now. Of course a controller can cost you thousands but it's the best investment I've ever made.

Other good advice would be to start puposefully simulating failures just to see how your system reacts. Put your finger in your overlow return, and see how long it takes your tank to backup. I have a sensor in my tank that also shuts off my return pump if the tank water level gets too high. Suppose my check valve breaks and valve somehow shuts, probably impossible as long as there is positive pressure but who knows. You can never have too much redundancy. If you use ball valves, start adjusting them to see how if affects your tank and sump.

You will make mistakes and have disasters. Usually it's because you forget something during maintenance. You will learn from them. A flood is far better than losing all your livestock, so when your wife *****es about how sick she is of the tank flooding, keep that in mind.

In my 6 years, I've probably had 5-6 things happen that I couldn't have predicts, Murphy's Law. Because of overdesigning, leaving as much margin for error as possible (it buys you time), redundancy, and having a high quality controller that can notify you of sensors readings, only 1 of those disasters caused me some coral. By my own admission, I was neglecting my tank after a move, had I been doing weekly checks, like I normally do, I would have caught that, it was an ALK drop when I ran out of 2-part. I just bought 5 gallon containers for my 2-part instead of 1 gallon! I could setup optical sensors with buzzers or alarms for about $50 to warn me of low levels, which I'll probably do within the next few months, now that I have a newborn.

rant over... hopefully this will help someone.
 
Oh, 1 last thing. If your sump is under your tank, use a really absorbant pad with microban in it to absorb water. I also kept towells around the bottom of the sump folded up. When I fed or adjusted something, I would put my toes on the towels to see if they were damp. This was because we had a beautiful new hardwood floor installed and if I could keep water off of it, it would really help. At least a small leak could be mostly absorbed and found out before water seeped through the floor and leak through the ceiling below. Salt water and electrical don't mix well and can cause a fire.


OMG, let me also tell you my worst disaster, not flood related. I had a bad aiptasia problem so I was using my creme brulee torch to burn them off of my rocks. I was in the basement and my wife came home, so I put the torch down on a metal rack to go say hi to her. I had a plastic graduated cylinder very close to the torch. When I turned the corner to go up the stairs I saw 1 foot flames out of the corner of my eye!!!!

The graduated cylinder melted from the heat and it was melting into the torch. The torch was off but the metal on it was apparently very hot. It combusted and caught a rag on fire. The fire was raging in the time it took me to walk 20 feet. I ran over, tipped the metal rack over and swiped all the burning stuff into my utility sink. Wow was that close. We were in a townhouse back then and the flames would have burned the entire 8 unit building down. A smoke alarm was at the other end of the basement where the stairs were. There's no way I could have put that fire out if I didn't catch it out of the corner of my eye.
 
Maybe you haven't the need to budget your money; maybe someday you'll understand, maybe you'll forever have deep pockets and never will. Here are some numbers:
333W = .33kW .33kW x 24h= ~8kW (30d) = 240kW 240kW x ¢11.5 (from my bill)= $27.60
So there you go; 333W is a pretty conservative supply pump. Its not a lot of money considering an under tank pump will run about half that, but the difference can very easily be turned into 10K gph of circulation. It also fires more than one 250W halide for 8 hrs, I bet more than easily heats a 300g system, it will likely run a very large skimmer. In all $20 isn't much, but when trying to keep total annual allowance under a very conservative $1800 it sure takes a bite. I haven't even mentioned the likely runaway electrical use costs a fishroom might add when there is room and lack of everyday oversight from the ultimate boss of the house, considering the addition of a large macro tank, an ATS, a frag system...
 
And to help not damaging your floors build a cabinet instead of using a stand; a cabinet will have its own floor. If you're doing your own floor consider a resilient tile or stone; other than being soft soapstone is a very good choice.
 
Not to sidetrack this thread too much, but the basics are this:
1) make sure your return and drain lines can handle the flow you want to put through them
2) when you fill your sump, make sure there is enough room left to handle any backflow from the display should the power go out and/or the return pump fails. The easiest way to do this is to setup all your plumbing, get everything connected and running, then turn off the return pump. Allow the water to drain back into the sump. Then fill the sump the rest of the way. Turn the return pump back on, let everything run for a few minutes until water levels level out. Now mark the water level in your sump. That is the MAX it can hold WITHOUT overflowing.

thanks man im also worried about the drain clogging. I figured use a baffle to isolate the pump so if hte sump isnt getting fed, only X gallons can goto the display before running out.
 
Just some thoughts here.

You can figure how big your sump will have to be with some basic math and the lowest point of back flow into your sump.If its your overflow or a pump return doesn't matter.
Lets say your return pump is 3 " below the top of the tank.Tank dimensions 48" x 24"

Example: (L) 48"X (w) 24" X (H) 3" = 3,456 cubic inches. (231 cubic inches = 1 USgal)
Divide 3456/231= 9.9 gals. Just remember when figuring the (H) height not to confuse it with tank height.Also ,you have to figure a few other things like insump skimmer ect...but you can get a rough guesstimate using the same math with pretty much anything that you are going to use in your sump and add it up to determine the volume you would need.A skimmer although its round you could just square it ,6"x 6" x 24" ,a heater 1"x 1"x 16" ect....just using examples here is all.

I would never trust a checkvalve of any type in saltwater.
 
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No hijack here but thought its worth mentioning.

As far as odor from a skimmer it can be easily addressed in the same fashion those that use ozone injected skimmers to catch any residue that might otherwise escape.

As long as your skimmer cup has a lid on it just drill a small hole init,sized for 1/4 tubing and attached to a small piece of pvc or an asprin bottle ,fill it with carbon.Something with small pore size (kent is one I know of) is best for filtering gases. Its just like the silencers used to quiet skimmers.
Running carbon in your sump shoud take care of the lowtide on the other end.
 
No, a budget is important. I just wanted to be educated on the real cost savings. My property taxes just went up 55%, and we are considering moving if we can't get them adjusted. The first thing I thought about when I realized it was costing us an extra $500 a month was bringing down my tank if I had too. That's a shame, seeing how I just built it into a wall in our foyer.

Maybe you haven't the need to budget your money; maybe someday you'll understand, maybe you'll forever have deep pockets and never will. Here are some numbers:
333W = .33kW .33kW x 24h= ~8kW (30d) = 240kW 240kW x ¢11.5 (from my bill)= $27.60
So there you go; 333W is a pretty conservative supply pump. Its not a lot of money considering an under tank pump will run about half that, but the difference can very easily be turned into 10K gph of circulation. It also fires more than one 250W halide for 8 hrs, I bet more than easily heats a 300g system, it will likely run a very large skimmer. In all $20 isn't much, but when trying to keep total annual allowance under a very conservative $1800 it sure takes a bite. I haven't even mentioned the likely runaway electrical use costs a fishroom might add when there is room and lack of everyday oversight from the ultimate boss of the house, considering the addition of a large macro tank, an ATS, a frag system...
 
Property taxes flat out suck in this state; people who can afford large spans of vacant land get huge tax savings, people who can afford 2nd, 3rd, 4th homes not only pay the same tax as someone working hard to live the Am dream by owning their own home, but they also drive the cost of it up too. I can remember clearly coming in and seeing my other sitting there crying with our first school tax bill in her hand. I hope you can work out keeping your house and the tank! It always irks me when I see someone say, if you can't afford a $100 this, or $20 more for that you are in the wrong hobby; I'm glad you didn't go there. I've always been proud that I keep very close to a $60 per month budget that cover's everything but electricity and probably super glue (damn I use a lot of that stuff) You are right there are a plethora of great reasons to have a one's own fishroom. It would sure be nice if these animals paid for themselves a little better.
 
Now I don't pretend to know everything about reefkeeping, but I do know what I've learned. The basement sump area I have is overkill, plain and simple. The small-block Chevy sized return motor which is dialed back is pointless. The water volumes when dealing with 200 or 300 gallons create differences which are nominal. If you stay on top of your maintenance, as I obviously have, there are fewer surprises to react to. And it's easier to do a huge water change, if you needed to, on 200 vs 300 gallons. SO, my basement sump volume is .....overkill.

Refugium is 20 gallons. I'm still not thouroughly convinced, that in my system, with big frequent water changes, it makes a big difference. I like the idea of a refugium, but I can adopt a small 5 gallon hang on refugium under the tank. Again, my current one, is overkill.

My skimmer is HUGE G4x. Overkill IMO. I will be getting a new smaller foot print in sump skimmer.

My current stand is 36 high, a height I love and intend to repeat. The previous stands I've had were not, making sump and skimmer access difficult. The tank I am going with is going to be a 4x3 foot footprint with 3 foot height. I would line it with some sort of matting available for the trunks of SUV's for incidental spillage. Plenty of room for overflow, filter sock, in sump skimmer, hang on refugium, and large area for return, with enough volume for power outages and back siphon. There should also be room for Ca reactor and Kalk bucket in that foot print. (also 4x3 tank will be lit with one less MH than the 6 foot 180, and T5s will be on majority of the time with halides on 4-5 hrs).

Have you ever looked under the 180 display tank at TRS???? Nothing down there.

I am a huge believer that you don't need a massive return pump for flow if you have a large volume of redundant flow inside the display. I'd say 2 tunzes and a vortech will handle that job. So an in sump return at a modest rate will be plenty IMO.

I will have access to a remote site for ATO, but I'll have to be more careful to allow enough room for malfunction. Reef tanks do come with their headaches....I'll have a utility sink around the corner in the first floor laundry room which is actually closer to where the tank will be, than my basement sump is to my utility sink now.

I still don't know which way I'm going until I actually draw it all out, but I think I've learned I can live with an under the tank sump and be happy. I think I can GREATLY reduce my power consumption and costs with admittedly, a touch of inconvenience and a lot more squatting.

Smells are smells. But with my love of Mexican food and beer, a baby, and 2 dogs...."Low Tide" can join the club. My wife (who would be mortified by this) has also been know on the rarest occaision to be a phantom farter herself. So she can deal with it.
 
Yeah, I hate when ppl say things like that. It's so superficial. The hobby, the size of tank, type of species, and amount of automation and redundancy is so arbitrary. I know some people who just love doing things for as cheap as possible. When they see someone drop 5-10k into something, they say to themselves, I can do that for 1/10th the cost and challenge themselves to do that.

I'm not in danger of losing my tank. That's one reason why I may never jump to a 200+ gallon size (mine being 90 now), it's because there's a significant increase in the amount of electricity, plus all my other chemicals etc... I'm pretty confident that I will always be able to afford my 90, which maybe costs me $60-80 a month in maintenance. Now, if I had a 200+ gallon, that number would be more significant. You can buy a lot of groceries or pay your cable bill with $150-200.

I'm only in danger of losing my tank if we move to a new house! It will go in the basement again, until i find the time and place to build it somewhere.

Property taxes flat out suck in this state; people who can afford large spans of vacant land get huge tax savings, people who can afford 2nd, 3rd, 4th homes not only pay the same tax as someone working hard to live the Am dream by owning their own home, but they also drive the cost of it up too. I can remember clearly coming in and seeing my other sitting there crying with our first school tax bill in her hand. I hope you can work out keeping your house and the tank! It always irks me when I see someone say, if you can't afford a $100 this, or $20 more for that you are in the wrong hobby; I'm glad you didn't go there. I've always been proud that I keep very close to a $60 per month budget that cover's everything but electricity and probably super glue (damn I use a lot of that stuff) You are right there are a plethora of great reasons to have a one's own fishroom. It would sure be nice if these animals paid for themselves a little better.
 
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