SICK Amphiprion melanopus "HELP"

L

LOSTOZZY

New member
Hi All,

I need some help with my Amphiprion melanopus pair.

As you have no doubt guessed I am new to this hobby "addiction" so any help would be greatly appreciated.

Here's the story, I am part way through building a 30" x 30" x 24" cube for my first custom and aquired a pair of Amphiprion Melanopus clowns from a friend that sold his tank to a fresh water hobbyist who didn't want the clowns and we couldn't find any one locally into marines to store the clowns until my cube project is ready for stocking.

Cut a long store short I set up a QT for a temp home for the clowns. As a newbie wasn't sure how to go about this and needed it done yesterday.

So the set up is as follows, a two foot standard with a 1 to 2 inch marble chip "000" substrate, 3 kg piece of live rock for bio, internal filter with carbon and filter wool for further filtration and water movement and RO/DI water with Seachem Reef Salt.

The tank went through a small cycle over a three week period where I completed 30% water changes every two days until Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrates dropped off.

All was well until introducing the clowns.

The Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate showed up again to the following levels.

Ammonia 0.3 mg/l
Nitrate 15 mg/l
Nitrite 0.3 mg/l
PH 8.1

The clowns have been in this set up now for around two weeks and have developed a whitish fungal on their bodies and losing their facial brightness.

The smaller of the two is looking distressed swimming with his fins down.

They are both eating well but I'm quite worried about the white fungal stuff on them.

I know I have probably done everything wrong by these guy's but willing do what ever it takes to cure this problem.

My guess for a newbie is maybe Marine ich but I will await your responses prior to doing anything other than daily water changes to help reduce the bad water levels.

Any help would greatly be appreciated.

Thanks in advance
LOSTOZZY



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I swear I remember reading that marine fish often have their dorsal fins down and that it isn't a cause for concern as it can be with freshwater fish.
However, I'm concerned about the white spots as you are...that's never a good sign. Any other peculiar behaviors to go along with it?

I would remove the substrate from your QT, and the rock will likely have to come out as well. What's your Specific Gravity? If it is Ich, you'll want to lower it slowly over the next three days or so to 1.009 and maintain it there for at least 4 weeks after the last visible sign of the parasites.
If it's a fungus you'll need to take a whole different route, but IMO Hyposalinity (if you lower it slowly) can't hurt.

I can't tell from the picture if it's Ich or a fungal infection, but either way you won't be able to treat with the substrate and rock in the tank. If you end up treating the tank, replace the rock with some PVC pipe fittings. For my juvi ocellaris pair I've got some 2" fittings, but the Melanopus will probably need a few bigger pieces.
 
Well it's late at night and not many people on. So I'll try to advise you the best I can. I may be wrong though. :P I have kept up to 6-7 pairs of clowns in the past, but never had serious outbreaks or other problems. I recently got advice from illcssd
(austin) for QTing fish myself. Hopefully he and others will chime in today.

Your increased ammonia/trites/trates are becuase of the increased bio-load placed on the tank after the addition of the fish. They create waste which in turn created your mini cycle.

To me it almost looks like Amyloodinium. But it could be ich too.

Ich usually infects stressed fish after transportation, or newly established tanks, temp swings, stuff like that. Most liekly the case in your fish. Usually ich is seen in the morning, white dots will come and go, and they wont be in the same spot more then three days. Treatment is usually 1 drop of formalin per 5 liters, some people like to use malachite green as well. Also copper .20ppm for two weeks. However, clowns might cease spawning for a length of time or forever after copper treatments. Check the disease forum and billsreef thread on ICH treatment. Link is at bottom of next post.

If its Amyloodinium also called velvet, or coral fish disease. The treatment is more intense. Usually the signs are- wont eat well, they'll have a rapid breathing rate and will try to rub it off. I've seen the same signs from ich too.

5 min freshwater dip,
lowering the salinity
and copper treatment is advised per Joyce Wilkerson's book "Clownfishes" page 111 and 113.

Like I said before I have never had disease problems in my fish thus far. I would suggest reading on the two types of diseases. Also, hopefully someone with more knowledge will log in and offer advice. I hope this helps somewhat. I used Joyce WIlkersons book for reference as you can tell. (To moderators: Not sure if I need to cite things properly, if so I can.) Hope this information helps.
 
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Hi Grunt and Slakker,

I thank you both for your help and idea's.

I will read through the info in the links you have provided and see what they suggest.

I have a spare tank I could use as another QT, so should I go ahead and half fill the new QT with water from the existing tank then start the process of Hyposalinity.

Cheers LOSTOZZY
 
Depending on the status of new tank construction and other inhabitants in the current tank, I would consider treating them right there.

What else is in the tank with them?
Do you really need to reuse anything in the tank on the next project, other then QT/hospitalization?
 
Hi Scott,

Thanks for your response, there is nothing in the tank that I'm concerned about other than the clowns. There is only the live rock and the substate.

My thoughts were treating in the current tank hopefully killing off any ich within the system buying me a little more time for my cube to cycle.

When you say treat them in the current tank do you mean using the Hyposalinity method.

Thanks in advance
LOSTOZZY
 
If they are eating, I would start moving hypo.
If they are not eating, I would dose copper today.

I would seriously consider dosing antibiotics as well. IMHO, you are going to start seeing septicemia shortly.
 
It looks like they have velvet. Do a FW dip in a clear container. If you have "dust" on the bottom it is velvet. If they don't come off it is ich. Hypo only works on ich, not velvet.

Either way if it was me I would remove at least the rock, and substrate if possible. Treat with Cupramine copper w/out lowering salinity. Copper can be more toxic at lower salinity. Cupramine is an excellent copper medication that is tolerated by even copper sensitive fish. Test copper levels at least twice per day. If you leave any calcerous rock or substrate it will absorb the copper and you will need to constantly monitor (twice per day should be good) and redose.

Some good readings

http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/treatments.html
 
Once again I thank you all for you assistance.

I have started the Hyposalinity process in the current tank to see what happens.

My thoughts:

There is nothing in the tank that will be reused and the clowns are both eating quite well, I have increased the feeding to two feeds per day to help their immune systems cope with the extra stresses and the elevated water parameters are now looking much better.

If I change to a new QT the chances of Ammonia, Nitrates and Nitrite levels increasing is something else to worry about and may also contribute to the stress levels of the clowns affecting their eating.

I will continue to reduce SG to arround 1.009 over the next two days and monitor their progress.

If this has no affect I guess I look at other potential infections such as velvet then move onto treating in a completely new QT with copper based medications.

How long should it take to notice any changes using Hyposalinity if the infection is actually Marine ich?

Thanks in advance for your assistance!!!!

Cheers LOSTOZZY
 
I've had mine in QT with hypo for around 9 days now (give or take) and already they are up and swimming and have started eating again. Improvement is definitely noticeable.

Mine were behaving is if they were in much worse shape than yours are, but visible infection was barely present.
 
Thanks LargeAngels,

Looks like you pretty well on the mark,

My SG is down to arround 1.012 and I have noticed no change in two days, if any a slow decline.

I am heading to my LFS right now to get what they have in the way of copper based medications and start treatment this morning.

I'm not sure how to go about starting treatment as they are currently in the tank with SG 1.012.

I have a fresh batch of RO/DI, SG 1.021 ready and a 2 foot spare glass tank that I plan on using for the treatment tank, do I half fill the treatment tank with water from the clowns current tank and half SG 1.021 as to not increase SG levels to harshly then start treatment.

Any way off to the LFS, will update shortly.

Thanks so much for your imput.

LOSTOZZY
 
Sitting at 1.012 is not a hindrance to using copper, just keep an eye on the pH, which will be prone to dropping fast.

A rise in specific gravity at this stage will likely be game over, not to mention, the pathogen has not been conclusively identified. Copper is used effectively in fresh water, brackish water, and saltwater against many parasites. If they are worse, hit them with copper.

Bottom line: move them to bare bottom, hit them with copper, maintain the low salinity and be prepared to do lots of water changes. Ammonia will rise, and pH will fall.

Have they stopped eating?
Have they started showing bleeding in the fins?
 
I'm glad I was able to correctly label that for you. Hope everything works out. Please keep us updated and ask any questions, this can be a good thread to help others as well.

Did you do a FW dip btw?
 
Thanks Grunt,

I was hoping your diagnosis was the worst case senario. I was hoping the Hyposalinity method would work if the infection was Marine ich but no such luck.

I have been down to my LFS but they only stock very a limited supplies and nothing copper based.

Is there some form of substitute that I could get from a chemist to try if not things are not looking to good.

Thanks all

LOSTOZZY
 
In the dark ages we used lengths of copper pipe, but I'll be darned if I can remember the number of inches per gallon, etc. It took time to get to dosage if I recall correctly.

See if you can track down:
Noga E.J. and Levy M.G. 1995. Dinoflagellida (Phylum Sarcomastigophora) In: P T K Woo (ed.) Fish Diseases and Disorders. Volume 1: Protozoan and Metazoan Infections. CAB International, Wallingford, Oxon. pp 1-25.

Specifically in relation to:
chloroquine diphosphate

Good luck.
 
Hi Scott,

Would it be possible to use Copper Sulphate from the chemist at the following levels.

Copper Sulphate 14.13 g/litre. Dose rate is 1 ml per 9 litres each day for 4 days.

Willing to try anything at this stage.

LOSTOZZY
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9814910#post9814910 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by LOSTOZZY
Hi Scott,

Would it be possible to use Copper Sulphate from the chemist at the following levels.

Copper Sulphate 14.13 g/litre. Dose rate is 1 ml per 9 litres each day for 4 days.

Willing to try anything at this stage.

LOSTOZZY
Click to expand...
Would not be the first time copper sulfate has been used, but I am unsure of the dosage required, its precipitation rate, or compatibility with available test kits.

Treatments with copper are fairly tricky, not enough it does not work, too much dead fish. Copper testing is going to be important due to the number of water changes that are going to be required.
 
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