Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13474353#post13474353 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by billyzbear
I have thought about doing something very simular to this with my drain. I have two 1" drains coming from the bottom of box. Use one for siphon, bulkhead to pipe with a valve on the end. The other straight pipe about half the hieght of box to bulkhead. Roughly how much water can move through a 1" pipe with no air? It's like 600gph with air? My backup plan was to use a 3/4" siphon and the two 1" pipes for failsafe. I plan to move about 1500gph.

If I read this correctly, you can certainly use the 3/4" drain for a siphon, the 1" for the open channel and the other 1" for an emergency overflow. It SHOULD do 1500 GPH, but the 1" open channel may introduce a lot of air into the sump (acting more like a durso than an open channel drain).

If I read it wrong and you plan on using a U-Tube siphon backed up by the 1" drain... that will work as well.

The (2) standpipe herbie setup would not offer enough margin for error in this situation (at least for my tastes).

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13495567#post13495567 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by eme
Deed done .. now finally ordered a new un-braced 'Starfire' tank 110x 55 x 62/59 ( cm) with a coast-to-coast external overflow 8x15 (cm) ( drilled in bottom of overflow for 3 'BeanAnimal' channels' and a single return.). Hardest bit was convincing the guy to do 'no teeth'!!

Photos would be great! Include something for a sense of scale.

You should be happy with the toothless weir. If animals goin over does become a problem, a simple guard can be fashioned to create a "slot" instead of an open top weir.

Thinking aloud ... what syphons should I use ... copy the master and rotate through 90degrees ? .... to utilise the narroe space or some other similar methodology?

Photos may help with ideas to best suit your setup. Where will the sump be in relation to the overflow, etc.

 

[eme]

BeanAnimal.. No photos yet as only ordered today ! Im delighted with 'no teeth' after the argument here .. it was just a difficult thing to get across to the tank builder - my French is worse than my English. I was happy with the rear pane only being 1 cm lower than the rest, but he wouldnt have that because of possible wave motion splash ... but easier to build up later than cut back .. so I went with it.

Ill try and put a 'sketch on here tomorrow.

I'm going to build/have built a steel stand ( i.e. total width of tank plus overflow-65cm) which will allow me to drop all 3 outlets directly into the sump. I've spent a few hours working that through with the guy building the tank as it creates a slightly unusual sump configuration. Open and standby will be fixed piping and emergency flexible piping after it drops below the tank itself... as it were. All three will have gate or ball valves .. they will be 32 cm ( 1.25") return will be 1" (20cm).

Sorry if that isnt clear ... diagram will follow tomorrow but Im just not sure how now to configure the 3 drains themselves.

 

[billyzbear]

My overflow is built into the tank. It's an external box. The two 1" holes are through the bottom. I was thinking I could drill another on the side. So you think it would be safer to have the 3/4" siphon and use the two 1" for backup?

 

[BeanAnimal]

If you are going through the trouble of drilling another hole, then you may want to use the system as described in this thread. 1 siphon, 1 open channel and 1 backup. The smaller of the 3 holes needs to be the siphon.

 

[Ryan009]

Bean,

I'm setting up a new 250G (65" X 30" X 30") tank and was looking for overflow ideas. Hahnmeister pointed me towards your thread and website.

I love the concept!

On my system, I'll have one overflow on one of the 30" sides. It will be an internal. While I have the option of draining the overflow on the side if I have to, it would be cleaner if I took the overflow to the bottom and drilled the bottom instead of the side.

Two questions for you.
1. Does your design still work if the drains are on the bottom instead of the side?
2. If you were starting from scratch, would you do anything different?

Ryan

 

[BeanAnimal]

That was very kind of hahn.

Answers:

1) Yes of course. See #2 for my thoughts on a clean look..

2) I would consider an external overflow so that I could not see it from the tank. I would also consider a guard bracket that turned the weir into a slot high enough to not interefere with the flow but low enough to stop blennies and other curious slender fish. I am not sure if there is anything else I would change. I have been very happy with the setup and its safety. I am prone to making adjustments to things and walking away or forgetting... it has saved my bacon a few times.

 

[eme]

External Overflow - Plumbing

External Overflow - Plumbing

Hi BeanAnimal - I've managed to get a few pictures off this site, so hopefully my previous questions will now have some reference points. I apologise for using others' photos , but all originate here.
OVERVIEW
- Tank - Extraclear Rimless (1.2 cm) - 110 x 55 x 62/59 (Front/Back) - all measurements in cms ( roughly 43"x22"x24"/23"
- External Overflow - - 110 x10 x 15 ( 43" x4" x 6")
- Hood - None ( Pendant lighting)
- Overflow Plumbimg - Bottom of Overflow - 3 x Descents (32mm - 1 1/4") - 1 x Return (20mm - 5/6")
-Standpipes will be able to fall directly into sump ( in steel stand)) without need for any bends.
- Total Capacity - Display - c. 87 US Gallons
- Total Capacity - Sump - c. 25 Gallons ( but may be more if I change design then maybe as much as 40/50G)
Basic Configuration will look like this ( although dimensions will be different, overflow descent standpipes will be closer together and a different configuration):-

Return Pump - No commitment yet - but Eheim 1260 to match H&S 150-F2001 skimmer ( Aquabee 2001) if no better suggestions.

Some questions if I may :-

1. Standpipe Height within Overflow Box I would like to keep the overall height below the rear panel of the display tank as I am open-topped. Is this possible ? - all I have seen extend above the top of the tank? I appreciate I could fit a 'screen' ( see later question ) but would prefer not to. Can the emergency 'intake be marginally lower than the rear pane of the aquarium ( but still 3 cms below the height of the overflow box) ?
2. Oulet Design You use san-Ts with downturned inlets -

others have used open-topped ( at least for the emergency drain)

Are there any disadvantages to using open-topped / straight outlets? I was considering using outlet strainers glued into PVC fittings at different heights ( e.g. Bottom, Bottom + 1/2" ) in order to prevent fish disappearing into the sump. This is not a big issue as down-turned outlets will be possible .. just trying to minimize hard to get at spots in the overflow.
3. Intake Heights I note that you no longer use 'slots' in the intake pipes. However your suggested height

at least the circular area of the elbow

is beyond me . How high should the intake levels be above the base of the overflow box?
4. Weir Guard/Back Cover If necessary I will add a PVC strip ( the rear panel of the tank will be internally covered like this to hide the overflow box/sealant anyway) to create a slot for the overflow and hide the plumbing but would prefer not to . Ive measure the wave height both from Vortech and Tunze in relatively low flow aquaria and is c 1 cm ( 1/2"). Won't small fish easily still get through this?
5. Return Pipe I note that you favor OTT returns and most here seem to have done this. I could drill below ( or in) the overflow box to improve aesthetics -- would this impact the sytem in any way other than the usual issues with non-return valves?
6. Return Pump I currently intend going with an Eheim 1262 but obviously your system could handle much more -- what would you suggest ( in sump and quiet being the only constraints) ?

Many Many thanks for reading, it is very much appreciated -- I hope my questions are clearer this time.
I am obsessed with creating 'Quiet' for my wife so this aspect of the set-up is more exciting to me than any other!

 

[Mental1]

Hi --

I have been working with Paul from Ocean's Motions to design my CL using a four way. I have a 180 which had two island overflows and is going to be set up as a peninsula. I removed one of the overflows and the remaining holes will be used to feed the CL. The return will be over the end of the tank. Then Paul said that I should use all three holes in the existing overflow to drain to the sump which will be in my basement. I have a genx 40 and 55 to choose from for a pump. Am using a dart on the CL.

Then we started talking about the design of the overflow as it will not fit 3 durso's and he said to come here and read. So I think I get the overall idea. Maybe all of the details have not sunk in yet but I get the idea of using three standpipes and each has a specific function as described in great detail. I also saw one person's design for an overflow box like mine.

So my question BeanAnimal, is how would you configure this overflow?

Here's a picture of my tank.

 

[Mental1]

bump

 

[Mental1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12533859#post12533859 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by dnahas
Bean, Thank you for your ideas and contributions to the forum.

I am working on my setup using your drain method. I already had some 1.5” bulkheads and failsafe and silent are right in my system goals. I have a few questions if any advice can be offered. I figure a post here could help solve the I should have done this instead.

My setup: I have limited room, so my tank is drilled on the bottom. I just finished the silicone for the back wall overflow. Before I cut and glue, I doing a dry fit of the plumbing while the silicone cures. I have a larger aquarium in storage so most of my parts/fittings are sized big for this tank. This is also the reason most of my PVC connections are threaded, and I will use Teflon tape. This is a 60g cube (24”x24”x24”), due to the size of the 1.5” BH’s the back overflow wall is 4.75” off the actual rear glass of the aquarium. The unions in the overflow area are for any potential disassembly.

Other than the bottom drilled, I have two differences from your diagram. I did not drill the cap for the suction tube. I am using a threaded 1.5” to ½” Then 1/2” to 3/8” threaded adapter to the JG ¼ tube connection. I am not using a turned up elbow for the emergency drain, I plan on just a screen similar to what I have pictured now, but will be cut to a height above the other two drains. My current play is to have the drain heights a few inches below the overflow wall. My thought is I can place some egg crate/screen to give me a place for filter media if needed. I may stash my heater(s) in that space also, it just seems like a lot of wasted space if I don’t do something with it.

Initial potential changes:
Adding two 45’s to each of the outside pipes to move “bunch” them towards the center drain for more working space in the overflow area.

Since I don’t have room in the stand to thread the BV’s I may add unions between the BV’s and spa flex going into the sump. Chances are I will not add the unions due to extra space and I don’t THINK I will need to remove the BV’s from the BH’s.


Any problems in what I have so far? Keep in mind I have not started cutting my PVC pipes, so I know they are too tall.

Any ideas what I can do with the almost 12g of water volume in the overflow area?

Keep in mind no cutting yet, and the spa flex pvc is into the sump not pictured.

PIC's

So is this what I should set up? Will this work? Is anybody out there?

 

[BeanAnimal]

eme, You asked :

1. Standpipe Height within Overflow Box I would like to keep the overall height below the rear panel of the display tank as I am open-topped. Is this possible ? - all I have seen extend above the top of the tank?

The open channel standpipe needs to extend at least a cm or so above the highest water level. otherwise it could/will overflow instead of sucking in air. the other standpipes do not need to extend any higher than their intakes.

I appreciate I could fit a 'screen' ( see later question ) but would prefer not to. Can the emergency 'intake be marginally lower than the rear pane of the aquarium ( but still 3 cms below the height of the overflow box) ?

The emergency intake simply need to be above the normal operating level but below the flood level.

2. Oulet Design You use san-Ts with downturned inlets -Are there any disadvantages to using open-topped / straight outlets? I was considering using outlet strainers glued into PVC fittings at different heights ( e.g. Bottom, Bottom + 1/2" ) in order to prevent fish disappearing into the sump. This is not a big issue as down-turned outlets will be possible .. just trying to minimize hard to get at spots in the overflow.

open top intakes will work in deeper overflow boxes. In shallow overflows they tend to suck air. Be aware that strainers may not save fish and a trip to the sump may be safer. Getting sucked onto a strainer can be stressful and harmful.

3. Intake Heights I note that you no longer use 'slots' in the intake pipes. However your suggested height is beyond me . How high should the intake levels be above the base of the overflow box?

Lets try and explain this again so that everybody understands. Let's say the inside diameter of the elbow fitting is 1.9 inches in diameter. The area is therefore pi * (.95^2) = 2.8 square inches. The outside diameter of that same elbow is 2.25 inches so pi * 2.25 = 7 inches. S0 2.8 square inches / 7 inches = .4 inches. So the bottom edge of the intake needs to be at least .4 inches above the glass. If it is any closer then the area between the edge of the intake and the glass is smaller than the area (mouth) of the intake pipe. I hope that makes sense? If not just use .5" - .75" inches of clearance and you will be fine.

4. Weir Guard/Back Cover If necessary I will add a PVC strip ( the rear panel of the tank will be internally covered like this to hide the overflow box/sealant anyway) to create a slot for the overflow and hide the plumbing but would prefer not to . Ive measure the wave height both from Vortech and Tunze in relatively low flow aquaria and is c 1 cm ( 1/2"). Won't small fish easily still get through this?

Depending on the flow, yes small fish can make it over. Some people may opt to use the "slot" to prevent this. At lower flows it is not a problem, as the water is too thin, unless you have jumpers.

5. Return Pipe I note that you favor OTT returns and most here seem to have done this. I could drill below ( or in) the overflow box to improve aesthetics -- would this impact the sytem in any way other than the usual issues with non-return valves?

You got it. I don't believe in check valves, they ALWAYS fail. I design to eliminate them them at all costs.

6. Return Pump I currently intend going with an Eheim 1262 but obviously your system could handle much more -- what would you suggest ( in sump and quiet being the only constraints) ?

That is a great choice of pumps. I am not an in-sump fan, but the eheims are good. As for external, they don't get any quieter than the Velocity T4 series. They are somewhat a pain to maintain (calcium buildup). For all around external, the ReeFLo pumps are great as well.

Good luck!

 

[BeanAnimal]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13520974#post13520974 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mental1
Hi --

I have been working with Paul from Ocean's Motions to design my CL using a four way.

Great device, even greater person and customer service. You will not find a better company or person to work with.

I have a 180 which had two island overflows and is going to be set up as a peninsula. I removed one of the overflows and the remaining holes will be used to feed the CL. The return will be over the end of the tank. Then Paul said that I should use all three holes in the existing overflow to drain to the sump which will be in my basement. I have a genx 40 and 55 to choose from for a pump. Am using a dart on the CL.

Then we started talking about the design of the overflow as it will not fit 3 durso's and he said to come here and read. So I think I get the overall idea. Maybe all of the details have not sunk in yet but I get the idea of using three standpipes and each has a specific function as described in great detail. I also saw one person's design for an overflow box like mine.

So my question BeanAnimal, is how would you configure this overflow?

Pretty much just like the thread describes. The basement sump makes things a bit more complicated with regard to keeping the open channel silent. The long pipe with bends and twists will tend to cause air to become trapped and gurgle. Larger diameter pipe allows the air to escape easier and prevent a partial siphon from forming. However, it may take trial and error to get the open channel to not sound like a sink running 24/7. So... The best bet is to use all 3 standpipes but tune the siphon to handle almost, if not 100% of the flow, letting just a but cascade down the open channel. The only drawback to running at the edge of the envelope is that the siphon is on the edge of sucking air and could be a PITA to keep regulated. That means that you should consider running the water level a few inches above the siphon intake so that it self regulates to a larger extend (due to head pressure). Put the open channel intake a few inches above the siphon intake and the emergency a bit higher than that.

Sorry for the delay in response... I did not see you initial post. Good luck!

 

[eme]

Thankyou

Thankyou

BeanAnimal Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions. I will need to assimilate the 'physics' of the inlet depth and the rest of your advice over the next couple of days but your responses really are so helpful; a quick 'Thanks' is barely enough but 'Thanks' anyway.

 

[Mental1]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=13530890#post13530890 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by BeanAnimal
Great device, even greater person and customer service. You will not find a better company or person to work with.

Yea -- Paul is awesome.

Pretty much just like the thread describes. The basement sump makes things a bit more complicated with regard to keeping the open channel silent. The long pipe with bends and twists will tend to cause air to become trapped and gurgle. Larger diameter pipe allows the air to escape easier and prevent a partial siphon from forming. However, it may take trial and error to get the open channel to not sound like a sink running 24/7. So... The best bet is to use all 3 standpipes but tune the siphon to handle almost, if not 100% of the flow, letting just a but cascade down the open channel. The only drawback to running at the edge of the envelope is that the siphon is on the edge of sucking air and could be a PITA to keep regulated. That means that you should consider running the water level a few inches above the siphon intake so that it self regulates to a larger extend (due to head pressure). Put the open channel intake a few inches above the siphon intake and the emergency a bit higher than that.

Sorry for the delay in response... I did not see you initial post. Good luck!

So are you saying that if I can get the siphon pipe as straight to the basement as is possible it will limit the air being trapped?

I have another challenge -- the predrilled holes are 1 3/4 inches so there is no way that I will get enough flow through one pipe. I can use the schedule 40 on the overflow and maybe still get a 1 inch pipe in there but that still is pretty low flow. Even with the genx 40 choked back and I would think it would overwhelm the siphon pretty quickly and the open channel would be in constant use leaving only the emergency as back up. Given those limitations, would you still recommend the same configuration?

Thanks and it is okay for the delay ... I just kept bumping! :rollface:

 

[BeanAnimal]

You maybe be amazed at how the flow through a siphon with that much head on it. Yes, the straighter the standpipes, the better.

 

[Mental1]

Thanks so much for the help. Will let you know the outcome. Will post pics when it is set up.

BTW The beginning of this thread was silly and I really appreciate your willingness to stay positively engaged (and re-engaged) and help folks out. That says a lot of positive things to me about your character and who you are as a person. And thanks you for posting your advances in the design.

 

[Mental1]

One last quick question ... can spaflex be used? Or does it need to be hard pvc?

 

[BeanAnimal]

SpaFlex will be fine I prefer hard pipes to below the valve(s) and/or Unions for a neat look.

 

[MSU Fan]

Bean, any particular bulkheads you recommend? I am not sure whether I should go with the "standard" cheaper ones or if the investment in more expensive bulkheads is worth it...thanks!