Silent and Failsafe Overflow System

[Spar]

There are two drawbacks of using larger bulkheads that I can think of. First, the larger holes they require, which in turn weaken the tank more and require larger clearances from the tank edge and each other. Second, I've read some reports of larger bulkheads not purging air properly on the siphon channel if the flow rate is not high enough. I don't know specifically what flow rate is required to purge a 1.5" bulkhead, but it is a potential issue.

you bring up good points here. i am about to redo my plumbing on my 450g as i am having issues with the full siphon. i think my main issue is that my gate valve is too high + i have long stretches of horizontal pipe on it.

however, should i be considering making my full siphon 1" instead when redoing my plumbing? I would leave my open channel and emergency at 1.5" in this case.

My overflows are two of the Reef Synergy external calfo boxes. I am running 2 Dart pumps that are ~4,000gph each prior to head loss @ 6 feet. I am guessing at most I have 2,000gph/each (likely less, but lets be conservative here).

So each 1" full siphon would have a goal at sucking down somewhere around 2,000gph or less.

thoughts?!

 

[sleepydoc]

you bring up good points here. i am about to redo my plumbing on my 450g as i am having issues with the full siphon. i think my main issue is that my gate valve is too high + i have long stretches of horizontal pipe on it.

however, should i be considering making my full siphon 1" instead when redoing my plumbing? I would leave my open channel and emergency at 1.5" in this case.

My overflows are two of the Reef Synergy external calfo boxes. I am running 2 Dart pumps that are ~4,000gph each prior to head loss @ 6 feet. I am guessing at most I have 2,000gph/each (likely less, but lets be conservative here).

So each 1" full siphon would have a goal at sucking down somewhere around 2,000gph or less.

thoughts?!

Just so I'm clear, you have 2 separate overflow boxes with 2 complete bean systems? (2 full siphons, 2 open channels and 2 dry emergencies?)

Both the horizontal runs and the high placement of the gate valve can cause issues. Before breaking the entire system down, you might try just moving the gate valve(s) down lower to see if that fixes your issue. If that fixes your problem, you could safe yourself a lot of work.

I don't know what the maximum flow of 1" pipe with your plumbing setup would be, but I would probably go at least 1.25" plumbing to be on the safe side.

 

[mattruggiero]

Needing some advice on my overflow plan...

I have a 125 gallon tank, 6 feet long, and right now I'm leaning towards using a coast to coast overflow.. the internal box would be 1.5" deep, 4" tall and 72" wide made with 1/4" glass. Then I would have an external box that would be 4" deep, 6" tall and 16" wide. I would connect them by drilling a few 2.5" holes in the back of my tank. The external box would house my BeanAnimal plumbing.

What do you guys think? I don't know much about the coast to coast (calfo) design specs.

 

[Aquamechanic]

Okay.

I have a scenario that I would like reefers to chime in on.

I am building a 130 gallon reef setup that will incorporate beananimal style overflow. It has a Sicce hf 16 return from a basement located sump. The sump is 25 feet lateral to the aquarium and a 12' rise from sump bottom to top of aquarium. Expected flow is about 1000 gph. It has a 1" siphon and drain setup with the gate very close to the end of the siphon line (again: 25 feet away and 12' drop)

What problems do you foresee if any?

Feel free to answer 'no problems'

Cheers

 

[Spar]

I have now been running my ATS for about 2 months with LED's. The ATS grows fantastic and quick. However, I am noticing two things:
(1) I am still getting GHA in my DT, albeit not much and my CUC mostly takes care of it for me, and
(2) I have chaeto in my sump/fuge that is growing very quickly as well just off stray red light from my ATS. (i.e. light isn't even pointed directly at it)

Does this tell anyone anything about whether my screen is over/under sized or if my photo period is too long?

Facts:
Tank - 450g volume
Screen - 8"x8"
Flow - ~300gph
Lighting - 2 LED units (one on each side...) each with 16 Deep Red & 4 Hyper Violet on a 6" x 12" heatsink
Photoperiod - 18 hours on / 6 hours off
Cleaning - ~every 10 days, mostly bright green algae on it

 

[Floyd R Turbo]

I think you posted that in the wrong thread Cliff!

 

[Spar]

ha, oops you are right

 

[Aquamechanic]

"you bring up good points here. i am about to redo my plumbing on my 450g as i am having issues with the full siphon. i think my main issue is that my gate valve is too high + i have long stretches of horizontal pipe on it.

however, should i be considering making my full siphon 1" instead when redoing my plumbing? I would leave my open channel and emergency at 1.5" in this case.

My overflows are two of the Reef Synergy external calfo boxes. I am running 2 Dart pumps that are ~4,000gph each prior to head loss @ 6 feet. I am guessing at most I have 2,000gph/each (likely less, but lets be conservative here).

So each 1" full siphon would have a goal at sucking down somewhere around 2,000gph or less.

thoughts?! "


I agree with Sleepydoc that putting the gate valve at the end of your drain will allow you to get the full siphon control; otherwise, if you have the gate 90% open at the top of the drain there will be a 10% void below the gate that will likely hold air. Could be wrong but that's the way I see it.

Regarding your pumps and drains:
I have a setup that is 400 gallon approx. that has ( I believe) a super Gold Dart pumping about 5-6' head with 2 standard Durso style drains in separate overflows with 1.5" diameter. I can only run the pump about 40% open before the drains get maxed out.

Obviously you will get significantly more flow through a siphon drain but just to give you an idea of what to expect running 2 pumps. I have since throttled down the pump flow as the flow through the sump was to high and added Sicce flow pumps on wavesurfers to encourage the high flow within the tank itself.

 

[sleepydoc]

Needing some advice on my overflow plan...

I have a 125 gallon tank, 6 feet long, and right now I'm leaning towards using a coast to coast overflow.. the internal box would be 1.5" deep, 4" tall and 72" wide made with 1/4" glass. Then I would have an external box that would be 4" deep, 6" tall and 16" wide. I would connect them by drilling a few 2.5" holes in the back of my tank. The external box would house my BeanAnimal plumbing.

What do you guys think? I don't know much about the coast to coast (calfo) design specs.

the holes should be at least 2.5" from the top edge of the tank, so the overflow would need to be at least 5" high. the number of holes you need depends on how much flow you are planning. Make sure you plan your plumbing for the external box before building it. What size bulkheads will you be using? you may need to go deeper and/or taller, depending on your plumbing.

 

[sleepydoc]

I agree with Sleepydoc that putting the gate valve at the end of your drain will allow you to get the full siphon control; otherwise, if you have the gate 90% open at the top of the drain there will be a 10% void below the gate that will likely hold air. Could be wrong but that's the way I see it.

A siphon works because water is non-compressible and the water lower in the pipe sucks the water behind it down. If the gate valve is totally open, there is of course no difference in where you place it. If it is closed, the negative pressure after the valve will be greater than the negative pressure before the valve. The greater negative pressure will cause any air trapped in the pipe to expand, making it more difficult to clear.

Regarding your pumps and drains:
I have a setup that is 400 gallon approx. that has ( I believe) a super Gold Dart pumping about 5-6' head with 2 standard Durso style drains in separate overflows with 1.5" diameter. I can only run the pump about 40% open before the drains get maxed out.

Obviously you will get significantly more flow through a siphon drain but just to give you an idea of what to expect running 2 pumps. I have since throttled down the pump flow as the flow through the sump was to high and added Sicce flow pumps on wavesurfers to encourage the high flow within the tank itself.

There is really no comparison between a durso and a siphon; you can easily exceed 2000 gph with a 1.25" siphon whereas you'd be lucky to get 400 gph with a durso. Dursos can work fine for smaller aquariums and/or lower flows, but if you want higher flows you either need very large pipes or a siphon system like a bean or a herbie.

 

[Aquamechanic]

My point was only that creating the flow within the aquarium alleviates needing to deal with a very high flow through the sump area. It makes the sump area more manageable with respect to flow through chambers and/ or media etc. Guess I'm stating the obvious but ...

The 400 I spoke of has 2 x 1.5" Durso (built 10 years ago before BeanAnimal/ Herbie style were popular). I get 1000GPH+ through each which gives me plenty of turnover. With the 4 Sicce Voyager 8 on controllers there is between 4000 and 16000 gph flow within the aquarium at any given time. 1 Super Gold Dart has the power/ flow to run the aquarium as well as the skimmer/ frag tank/ pony sump (barrel), ATS (600 gph) and is still not maxed out.

This has worked well for me so far. Any new setups I install are all BeanAnimal style

 

[mattruggiero]

the holes should be at least 2.5" from the top edge of the tank, so the overflow would need to be at least 5" high. the number of holes you need depends on how much flow you are planning. Make sure you plan your plumbing for the external box before building it. What size bulkheads will you be using? you may need to go deeper and/or taller, depending on your plumbing.

Thanks for the input Doc! Well I plan to place my c2c weir 1 1/2" or so from the rim of the tank so this should give me some extra room for drilling. I hope. How far down should I drill the holes in the side of the tank in relation to the top of the c2c weir? An inch or two lower?

I will be using 1" bulkheads. Looking to get about 900 GPH through the overflow to match my return pump.

 

[sleepydoc]

My point was only that creating the flow within the aquarium alleviates needing to deal with a very high flow through the sump area. It makes the sump area more manageable with respect to flow through chambers and/ or media etc. Guess I'm stating the obvious but ...

yes - you have to take everything into account in your plumbing design. A lot of people think the entire flow should go through the sump, but that's not necessarily the case, nor is more flow always better.

The 400 I spoke of has 2 x 1.5" Durso (built 10 years ago before BeanAnimal/ Herbie style were popular). I get 1000GPH+ through each which gives me plenty of turnover. With the 4 Sicce Voyager 8 on controllers there is between 4000 and 16000 gph flow within the aquarium at any given time. 1 Super Gold Dart has the power/ flow to run the aquarium as well as the skimmer/ frag tank/ pony sump (barrel), ATS (600 gph) and is still not maxed out.

This has worked well for me so far. Any new setups I install are all BeanAnimal style

That's really good flow flow for Dursos. Of course 2 1.5" pipes is a fair amount of plumbing as well. Like I (think) I said before, there's nothing intrinsically wrong with Dursos, they just need to be quite large to quietly handle larger flows, hence the popularity of Bean/Herbie setups.

 

[sleepydoc]

Thanks for the input Doc! Well I plan to place my c2c weir 1 1/2" or so from the rim of the tank so this should give me some extra room for drilling. I hope. How far down should I drill the holes in the side of the tank in relation to the top of the c2c weir? An inch or two lower?

I will be using 1" bulkheads. Looking to get about 900 GPH through the overflow to match my return pump.

I have a pic in this thread that shows recommended minimum clearances.

The top of your weir determines the water level in your tank, so most people put it even with the bottom of the frame. IIRC, 1" bulkheads need about 1 ⅝" holes, so the edge of the hole should be at least that far down from the top

 

[mattruggiero]

I have a pic in this thread that shows recommended minimum clearances.

The top of your weir determines the water level in your tank, so most people put it even with the bottom of the frame. IIRC, 1" bulkheads need about 1 ⅝" holes, so the edge of the hole should be at least that far down from the top

Great info! :thumbsup:

 

[mattruggiero]

I have a pic in this thread that shows recommended minimum clearances.

The top of your weir determines the water level in your tank, so most people put it even with the bottom of the frame. IIRC, 1" bulkheads need about 1 ⅝" holes, so the edge of the hole should be at least that far down from the top

Hey Doc, One last question for you if you don't mind. Since my tank is 72" long and will be put against a wall. My working space will be limited. I'm thinking of putting the external overflow on one side... instead of in the full length of the tank. Do you think this will cause flow issues? Thanks!

 

[sleepydoc]

Hey Doc, One last question for you if you don't mind. Since my tank is 72" long and will be put against a wall. My working space will be limited. I'm thinking of putting the external overflow on one side... instead of in the full length of the tank. Do you think this will cause flow issues? Thanks!

You mean having the overflow on the end, like you would with a peninsula tank? Sure - you just end up limiting the surface skimming and need to arrange your powerheads and return flow to get adequate circulation in the tank.

 

[mattruggiero]

You mean having the overflow on the end, like you would with a peninsula tank? Sure - you just end up limiting the surface skimming and need to arrange your powerheads and return flow to get adequate circulation in the tank.

Sorry, I should have been more specific. So the internal overflow spans the entire 72" width of the tank. The external overflow would be the back of the tank but instead of it being centered... it would be off to the right side. My thinking is that having the overflow towards the side and the plumbing it will be easier to clean/maintain.

Here is a pic that I put together. Forgive my MS Paint skills :lmao:

 

[SpikeDangles]

How are the drains supposed to enter the sump? Under water or above? Is it necessary to drill any holes at the end of the drain pipes where the enter the sump?

Also is it necessary to use T fittings? If it isn't- could I use 2 90° elbows on just the open channel (to attach airline), and leave the emergency and siphon without fittings

 

[sleepydoc]

How are the drains supposed to enter the sump? Under water or above? Is it necessary to drill any holes at the end of the drain pipes where the enter the sump?

Also is it necessary to use T fittings? If it isn't- could I use 2 90° elbows on just the open channel (to attach airline), and leave the emergency and siphon without fittings

The pipes should be under steady-state water surface in the sump, but within about 1" of the surface. If you have them above, the water will splash, create a ton of salt creep from all the spray, and completely defeat the purpose of the silent overflow system. If the siphon channel is too far under the surface, it will not be able to purge the air bubbles effectively.

Not sure why you would drill holes in the pipe in the sump, but no, it's not necessary.

If you read his original description, bean used sanitary tees with threaded fittings at the top to facilitate cleaning of the pipes. Many people have built bean systems without the tees since cleaning is rarely necessary and can be done without the tees if you're willing to put the extra work in.

From your question, I take it you're doing an external overflow?