Simple FOWLR Filtration & Stock

starfunker

New member
Hi,

This is my first time posting on this forum I believe.

I am going to be starting a 6x2x2' FOWLR with in the next few weeks.

I want to stock:

1 Lion Fish
1 Hippo Tang
1 Yellow Tang
1 Emperor Angel
1 Valentinni Puffer
1 Bannerfish
1 Blue Spotted Ray

1 Regal Angel (Maybe)

Equpipment I plan to use:

6' of NO Fluro lights
2 Hydor K 3000 Copies
3 300W heaters
~70Kg Live rock incl. some artificial rock.

No Sump!
No External filtration!
No Skimmer

Questions (and bear in mind that I am new to Fish only and am going by the fact that it's very different to a Reef tank).

Do you foresee any issues with my stock list?

Would a 4" in tank DSB, 70Kg of LR and a large amount of clean up crew be enough to keep the nutrients under control in this tank?

Thanks,
K!!!
 
Hi, and welcome to RC!

I'll put in my $0.02.

First, I disagree that a FOWLR is that different from a reef tank. It's true that you don't need as much lighting and current. However, it is important to keep water quality high. Most of the fish you are proposing to keep get quite large and create a lot of waste, so they will definitely need a decent filtration system. You can't skimp on water quality. Ammonia and nitrITE should be undetectable, and nitrATEs should be 20 ppm or less. I have found that many fish I keep are sensitive to nitrates, and show changes in appetite, coloration and behavior if nitrates get above 30 ppm.

Your stock list generally looks good, but I think you should definitely not keep the blue spotted ray, for a couple reasons.

Below is a quote from www.wetwebmedia.com (which is a great site to do species research):

Taeniura lymna (Forsskal 1775), the Bluespotted Ribbontail Ray (3) (aka the Bluespotted Stingray in the pet-fish trade). Indo-West Pacific, including the Red Sea. To fourteen inches in width. A commonly offered species in the ornamental marine interest, but rarely lives... due to shipping trauma, being kept in too-small quarters, lack of oxygen, scratches and subsequent infections...

1) You didn't mention how long you have been keeping salt water, but this ray (and most rays) are really for advanced aquarists, IMO. They also have specific requirements that makes them not the best choice for a community tank.

2) Also, I understand tangs, angels and puffers (maybe even a little one) may pick at rays.

What species of lionfish? Valentini puffers are very small, and I wonder if it might not be eaten by the lion. BTW, a larger puffer might be a threat to the lionfish.

If you are going to keep a bannerfish, consider two, as they are one of the few butterflyfish that will school.

I wouldn't attempt the regal angel unless/until your tank is well established and stable. I'd also take a look at the regal angel thread.

I think with the fish load you are proposing, you are going to be way under-filtered. If you don't run a skimmer, you should have a good sized refugium filled with macroalgae, such as chaetomorpha, to export nutrients. Personally, I'd run a skimmer AND a refugium. If you are dead set against a sump, I'd run one or two of the best and highest capacity HOB skimmers available on the tank, and one or two HOB refugia as well (packed with macro and lit 24/7).

I have a barebottom 120 gallon tank that is pretty fully stocked (comparable to the stocking density in your list). A few years ago, my return pump for the sump failed. Since I had a 210 and was going to move the fish over, I didn't replace this pump. I put two HOB skimmers (one is an AquaC Remora Pro, one is a BakPak) and a HOB Aquafuge refugium on the tank. There is about 200 lbs of live rock in there too, AND I do weekly 5-10% water changes. While the tank is not ideal in how it looks, water quality is good. I've kept it healthy over the years and have not lost fish. It took me a lot longer to get my 210 set up than I thought, but I learned you could run a fairly heavily stocked 120 gallon tank with HOB equipment and a regular maintenance routine. If I had not had the additional filtration, though, I'm sure I could not have kept the tank going.

I would NOT put a DSB in the tank. Personally, I have been less than successful with them. If you use a DSB, make it a remote one that you can disconnect from the tank if it does not work out. IMO a macroalgae refugium is the best way to control nitrates and other nutrients. A skimmer can take junk out of the water before it becomes nitrates, and plenty of good quality live rock will handle the biological filtration - that's why I use all three on my more heavily stocked tanks.

I would also put more than 70 kg of live rock in the tank - more like 100 to 150.

If you want to run a skimmerless, fugeless, tank, then I think you need to seriously revisit your stock list. You will need to stock much less densely, and get smaller fish that produce less waste.
 
It's not a good idea to put a Valentini Puffer with a Lion Fish. In general Puffers are fin nippers which stress out the Lions and carthagenous Puffers, of which the valentini is one, are the worst offenders for this.



Also you unfortunately have the wrong idea about filtration. A fish only tank, especially a predator tank with messy eaters, will not only provide more waste but will also have less clean up crew because you can't keep many invertebrates if any with them. In these cases protein skimmers and other types of mechanical filtration become even more important.
 
Yes, you'll need more filtration or less bio load.

I also have a FOWLR that has 5 large fish that are all messy eaters. Currently I use 2 filter socks in the sump, 2 large canister filters, a refugium, and a large skimmer. The skimmer is constantly making foam & I change 20% of the water bi-monthly.

Even with that, it's a battle to keep the nitrates down. I can tell in the behavior of the fish, before getting the test kit out.

Also, I wouldn't keep the 2 tangs together, and agree with LisaD about the ray.

And for LisaD: I have 4-5 inch sand bed in my display. Does this qualify as a DSB? Why is this a bad idea? With as much as my fish dig in the sand, I always thought this was a good thing. There are plenty of worms for them to eat in there, as well as other stuff. Should I avoid this?
 
Hi guys,

Thank you for the constructive input.

To clear up, I had imagined that these large fish would make a bit of mess, I had just thought that with no corals the need for nutrient export and ideal water conditions would be a bit lower.

I guess that high nutrients in the water would also need high maintanance due to algae build up.

I don't mind dind doing decent sized water changes but understand that this and rock alone wont cut it.

I have a good hang on back skimmer, I can put that on there, then would a canister filter cut it? I could then place them on the same end. I won't mind regularly cleaning it, it's better than cleaning the algae off the glass.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12639512#post12639512 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by starfunker
Hi guys,

Thank you for the constructive input.

To clear up, I had imagined that these large fish would make a bit of mess, I had just thought that with no corals the need for nutrient export and ideal water conditions would be a bit lower.

I guess that high nutrients in the water would also need high maintanance due to algae build up.

I don't mind dind doing decent sized water changes but understand that this and rock alone wont cut it.

I have a good hang on back skimmer, I can put that on there, then would a canister filter cut it? I could then place them on the same end. I won't mind regularly cleaning it, it's better than cleaning the algae off the glass.

This is such a common misconception about water quality and FO tanks. Nitrates are toxic to fish. Its a simple as that. To effect the fish to the point where you can see the negative effects physically, you usually have to have very high nitrates. I guess the thing to remember is that you are keeping fish that come from ideal water conditions and its your responsibilty to do your best to keep them in as close to those conditions as possible. So while they will survive in nitrates sometimes up to 60 ppm, its just not fair to the fish.

I have done a skimmerless 210G aggressive tank very successfully in the past. I did weekly water changes of 10% and that was about it. Very nice tank to maintain. It was home to a Stars and Stripes puffer and Snowflake eel. It was well worth having only two fish to me.

Here they are actually, best friends:

DSC00403.jpg



Just remember to think of the fish first before what you want. If you insist on that stock list, get a skimmer and fuge going.

Those rays and many other species rarely survive in home aquariums. You should also know that they do not handle nitrates very well and need the tank to be less than 5ppm...ideally undetectable. They have similar requirments as sharks.
 
And for LisaD: I have 4-5 inch sand bed in my display. Does this qualify as a DSB? Why is this a bad idea? With as much as my fish dig in the sand, I always thought this was a good thing. There are plenty of worms for them to eat in there, as well as other stuff. Should I avoid this?

no, sorry I didn't mean don't do it, especially if your sand bed is working out fine. I have a few smaller tanks with very mature DSBs that are lightly stocked and well filtered, and they developed serious nuisance algae problems that were very hard to control. so my personal experience with DSBs has been less than ideal. I can only speak for my own experience, though I don't think I am alone. I just apparently don't have the touch with them, so I avoid them.
 
Just hoping to get an answer to my question above...

Would a 2800L/h 4 stage + UV canister filter help provide sufficient filtration?

Would the UV sterilizer be a worth while feature or would the model with out be as good or better?

Cheers,
K!!!
 
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