Skimmerless....

I agree on skimmerless!!! I ditched and sold off my skimmer four months ago. I have a refugium under my tank which does most of the filtering. It is helped out by a Emperor 400 power filter running some carbon but mostly floss.

Maybe just coincidence, but I was able to cut back on some of the additives....and I know longer have to clean the skimmer every week! Bonus!!

Absolutely the BEST thing I ever did...I hope
 
My 40gal has a DSB and has functioned flawlessly.It is basically a lagoonal tank with moderate/low flow.All stoney corals with the exception of xenia on the glass(export) After adding a macro/refuge to help with export I think its time to go skimerless
Thanks for the info
 
This is an extremely interesting discussion.
When I was skimmerless last year, I actually only had a tiny sand layer. For most practical purposes, the floor was bare & we relied on bioballs in the wet dry for for our bacteria bed. As I have mentioned before, the results were eventually pretty bad. It is actually becoming more & more amazing to me that the tank did as well as it did for as long as it did. ( I have had the same tank since 1992)
At the risk of sounding really stupid, what is DSB?
 
Good question! [The only dumb question is one not asked]

DSB - Deep Sand Bed. Generally a 3" to 6" sand substrate in the aquarium, most often stocked [or given time to self-stock] with many interesting worms, bugs, and critters.
The deep bed facilitates anaerobic breakdown of Nitrate into Nitrogen gas, and the large critter/bacteria load uptake nutrients.

That's the basic rundown. I'd search this forum for more of Eric's responses - as he finds it to be an essential part of a reef aquaria. Others differ in thoughts, but this is Eric's forum, so you can search on that elsewhere if wanted :) We can run our tanks using any method we want ... we just might have to hear Eric say `told you so' when we break from his recommendations, as I've done with one of my tanks. [Though Eric's too nice a guy to say that, I'll know that's what he's thinking :)]

Dr. Ron's forum is a good place to learn more about sandbeds ... and knowing what not to stock [some livestock will eat the critters you want in the bed] ... and this system IMO requires a bit of patience and slow stocking to let the faunal population grow before predation. [Every method requires patience + slow stocking, though] Read up on it ... IMO there are a fair # of rules to follow to really have a thriving sandbed ... worth reading up on what is currently recommended.
 
Well, let me just hedge that a bit. It's not essential, and when I first started keeping tanks, I ran them bare bottom. I siphoned detritus weekly. And I had healthy fish and grew coral. I had lots of coralline algae, and on one or two rocks, a small patch of sponge or maybe a tube worm or two. The tank looked silly....rocks precariously stacked on a slippery glass bottom. Flora and fauna mostly consisted of what I bought. It was a "specimen tank". Today, I have reef tanks, because all the constituents of a reef are present, and I owe that to a large degree, to sand beds.
 
Eric &/or +++

Live rocks (LR) and DSB do the same thing but no one ever talks about their LR crashing. It seems to me that a shallow sand bed with lots of critters and tons of LR (even in the refugium) would be a safe and good looking way to go.

Is there a downside to this approach in a skimmed or a skimmerless tank?

Phil Thackray
 
Is it safe? I'd suggest everyone say "Yes" and let this DBS debate opportunity pass.

Yes.

Downside? I'd suggest everyone say "Not utilizing a DSB for nitrogen export", for the same reason.

Not utilizing a DSB for nitrogen export.
 
I'm not looking for a debate. Frankly I'm not qualified to debate this subject. An answer like yours is just fine:)

Thank you

Phil Thackray
 
Don has a good point :)

As said before, this discussion has been covered many places. You will/can get many opinions + thoughts on the subject ... all can be found elsewhere or in a new thread you start.

If you're running skimmerless ... IMO the DSB fits with this method to a degree others do not.
 
Sorry everybody it was an awkwardly worded and somewhat preachy sounding question. The system I posted is the system Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢m running. I was wondering if it would be a sufficient system in a skimmer-less environment. MiddletonMark addressed that.

There is no need to address my question any further ââ"šÂ¬Ã¢â‚¬Å“ If I ever go skimmer-less Iââ"šÂ¬Ã¢"žÂ¢ll inquire again at that time.

Horsemen pass by!

Phil Thackray
 
I ran a skimmerless/filterless system for 2.5 years. It started because my crappy air stone driven skimmer died at a time when money was in short supply. I was quite amazed to see that some of my corals did better in this new method. I continued with large water changes every 2 weeks and continued to feed well. All my lps and softies did fantastic and I kept and grew several gonioparas that I still have today some 5-6 years later. With respect to the sand bed issue though; I recently(within 2 years) added 4" of oolitic sand to the existing crushed coral bed (big mistake). I HAD NEVER HAD A PROBLEM WITH MY TANK UNTIL I DID THAT.
Now the tank is skimmed witha quality skimmer and I even have extra filtration for it as well. I have read countless threads on deep sand beds and think they are unqestionably the way to go. But only if done properly. I feel in my case the crushed coral beneath the sand is loaded with detritus and that it is leaching chemicals back into my water column. I intend to add a huge sump in my basement with a large 75gal refugium with mangroves. I now thinkn that skimmerless ( or reduced skimming) and large sumps (large than the display) are going to no doubt be the wave of future coral reef system maintenace. And sand beds are essential to these systems. Just my 2 cents from someone who has been at this a long time and feels hes still at the kindergarten level.:)
 
Eric,

Do you have any articles or can you point out any places to read up more on the the concept of going Skimmerless. I am in the process of of planning a new tank, and am one of those people that like to get as much info as I can on a subject before I do it.
 
I think most of the information I have written on the subject has been in the form of long posts. Julian wrote an article on the Jaubert method revisited a while back, and I have all the oriignal Jaubery articles, but they are old and dated.

I think the best way is just to ask questions.
 
Wow, what a nice little thread this has turned into. Sorry for my absense--busy, busy, busy.

I might tend to get some new rock, maybe some aquacultured pieces, too, to maximize diversity and really get the substrates crawling.

I was thinking about that (especially the aquacultured stuff). Since I'll be transferring from one tank to the other I've not worked out quite how to do this--I really don't think I want to stick some new rock (even well treated aquacultured stuff) into the display, and I'm not sure my roomate would want another tank around for "curing". If I can work out how to do this I'd really like to add some of the Florida rock though. Have any of you guys worked with this stuff? What did you think?

Feed well (phytoplankton, and particulates (golden pearls type stuff), do water changes if required over the first six months to deal with the nutrients from feeding while the substrates get cranked up.

Absolutely. While I hate asking about certain specifics (reasoning and understanding is far better than following a recipe I think) what should I be looking for in terms of elevated nutrients? I'm used to getting undetectable for phosphate and nitrate (or at least <0.5 ppm nitrate) and anything higher would scare me I think ;) Should I just not worry if nitrate gets to, say, 3 ppm? I'm sorry to ask such a difficult question, but I anticipate myself 'freaking out' when I detect high disolved nutrient levels.

Lots of herbivory, mostly as snails.

Absolutely.

And, stock with a lot of coral after it is stable, even if it is coral you don't neccesarily want down the road. Things like digitata, Pavona, etc.

Now this is the part that worries me. I do already have several corals to transfer over, (some small, some larger). I really don't want to put any undue stress on any of these. I recognize that the environment will be destabalized for a period, but I'd like to minimize that as much as possible. It really breaks my heart to lose anything. Oh, and I think M. digitata and Pavona are absolutely lovely corals :D

I would limit soft corals or things that have lots of secondary metabolites unless you have a little carbon area built into the tank.

Ha, not an issue. Frankly, I'm almost afraid of soft corals (in the context of an aquarium) now. I had a small tank (~10 gal.) as well until about 6 months ago. I had several corals do very well in it. After I added a large Cladiella sp. that was all I could keep in that tank. It damaged some Ricordia florida, some zoanthids, and a few other Alcyonids. I liked it a lot, but that forced me to learn respect for their potency. Anyway, long story short I don't plan on adding anything like this to the tank. No nasty algae either...Caulerpa, yuck!

Then, when the tank is ripping after about a year and you are getting it stocked the way you want, make sure to use a lot of live foods like artemia nauplii.

Absolutely.

I think you'll be really really happy with the way it turns out.

I think so too! :D

Now for a few follow-up questions.

I realize that this system simply is not going to respond to large food additions at first, but over time will be able to utilize quite a bit. I am going to have to feed the Banggai's (the male has eggs in his mouth for the first time as we speak--I'm beyond excited :D--at least second generation captive bred) as well as the Tubastrea, though I don't anticipate them producing God-awful waste and totally disrupting the system. At least I hope not. For everybody else I plan to use cultured phyto (DT's or maybe something from Reed mariculture a friend of mine has been trying), Cyclopeeze for everybody that can eat it, and Golden Pearls for all the really little mouths. Also, I've never used Golden Pearls before--I'm more used to 'wetter' food--so I guess I'll have to experiment with amount used. To finally come to a question: do you see anything inherently unbalanced about what I'm planning or anything you think will trip me up?

Now as for the corals I have. As I said, I really don't want to stress anything (or especially lose anything) if I don't absolutely have to. I can, however, transfer things over the course of a couple of weeks. Hopefully this will allow the substrate (both rock and sand) a little time to get going before I really start putting much of a demand on it. Anyway, have you any suggestions as far as actually transferring all the corals over without a hitch?

As far as IA, yes, very impressive tanks. That has to be the neatest place I've been off an actual reef. What impressed me the most I think (it's so hard to pick one thing) is the way the tanks looked and felt alive--the way reefs do. They didn't seem like all the big-skimmer tanks I've seen. They didn't even seem like my well-fed-attempt-at-biodiversity-with-a-skimmer tank. Like you said, they are the closest thing to an actual reef I've seen in a closed system. Other than that: big fat tangs, big fat clams, big fat urchins, and big fat corals :D

Another thing that has really motivated me is my girlfriend's tank. It's been up about 6 months (about 15 gal.) has pc lights, a couple little powerheads, and most of all no skimmer. She has some happy growing Xenia, a very quickly growing Euphyllia paradivisa, a shrimp and little Allen's damsel. The thing that sets this tank apart though is that this tank (unlike any other I have ever helped with) also has marine snow ;) The rock is becoming just covered in all sorts of pretty algae, there are tons of worms and brittle stars, and sponges are begining to really get going. The tank looks a lot more like a reef than my tank with it's purple/red rocks that occasionally have feather-duster worms, or small sponges growing in some tiny nook. I find myself spending more time looking into that little tank than my own.

Anyway, Eric I very much appreciate your time. As always I am in your debt.

Cheers,

-Chris
 
Chris ... my experience with golden pearls suggests starting with `salifert spoon' sizes to use. Quite quite small, but slow and steady wins the race and I found it easy to raise the nutrient levels quite fast with GP's.
Figure you need to build up the `uptake' too for it ... but I found even such tiny spoons to be my preferred measuring tool.

--
My question is about dissolved oxygen levels. From running skimmed tanks before ... the one question a friend brought up was about O2 levels, as the skimmer was likely positively impacting that.

Is this something to be concerned about? Any warning signs if my O2 level goes low? Or am I likely at saturation even without the skimmer?
 
I agree heartily with Mark, and am finding that Cyclop-eeze seems to be much "safer" in terms of what potentially happens with water quality v feedings. I am not sure why, and definitely like GP as a food source...few other things are that size that are commercially available.
 
Just wanted to bring up this thread since I did not respond to it.

A month or two before this thread started I set-up a simple 30G. mixed reef.

This was to be my second set-up utilizing natural methods of filtration. The first set-up was going strong for a little over a year before it was destroyed by fire.

Anyways here is a thread descibing how things are going with my 30G. at the 6th month mark.

Thanks Eric for your input and contributions to those like myself who enjoy running this type of system!
 
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hi all,

I would really watch your oxygen levels. My tank positively needs either a skimmer or an airstone at all times to keep dissolved oxygen at even a mediocre amount. A dozen fish have died over the past year thats $300 because either my closed loop or skimmer was down, and I did not have an airstone working at the time (were only talking about a period of max 8 hours here). No fish have died from anything else but this. Tonight, I watched in horror from my living room sofa as my new Squareback Anthias did some sommersalts and floated to the surface. Looking in the skimmerless tank, I saw the other Tangs breathing desperately, so I put in the airstone. Now everythings great.

Its too bad my tank is so sensitive to low oxygen levels; everything else is so stable that its truly a pleasure.

Paul
 
Paul sorry to hear about your loss, as the owner of 2 skimmerless systems I had that same worry "Oxygen Levels".
I found in my 90 that has been running skimmerless for more than 3 years now I have never had to add a air pump but my 300 that has been running 1 year, I did have to add one.
The 90g is my Reef tank but the 300 is a FOWLR tank, I seen one of my fish gasping for air in the 300 and added the air pump asap, there has been no losses or problems since. I did not put a air stone on the end of the hose.

Kaye
 
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