Skimming Theory

Well, I read through Eric's thread in full. Seems interesting, but I'm not sure how valuable it will be without looking at CNP, or at least protein levels. Guess we will have to wait for his article.

Ozone seems to break down the larger matter into smaller pieces-which would be expected. Whether it actually helps remove a higher % of waste can not be determined from his current samples (unless he hasn't listed some).

Ideally, it would be nice to have a tank with just saltwater freshly madeup. Add known weight of pellet food or flake food(something dry with no water). Use powerhead for circulation, seal tank, add hepa filter on skimmer air intake. Skim until no visible food is in water, collect waste at multiple intervals and check dry weight. Then check protein concentration of water and skimmate.

Then, take tank water from a reef system (has bacteria and algae). Repeat above experiment.

The way he is doing it contains a lot of variables...

Hrm, I do have an old crappy marineland skimmer. Wonder what I did with the powerhead that goes to it...
 
In a reef setting I think the fact that some organics are needed has been overlooked. The corals and other filterfeeding organisms uptake organics at a high level. Although I think it would be interesting to know what is actually being removed by the skimmer I think it is a moot point. While certainly the skimmer pulls out organics it adds a lot of DO back to the tank that it couldnt get on surface area alone. This will add a bit of stability to the tank w/out the pH swings that we would experience w/out it (not including running your fuge on a reverse lighting cycle). I do have a question though, if you are running ozone in huge skimmer and there was still a lot of organics making it through the skimmer, what else could be done to break down the organics? If ozone can't break down the organics in combination with the skimmer what else could do it besides the metabolic pathways of corals and other filter feeders as evident w/ Steve Tyrees operation. My take on skimmers is that it provides stablity to the tank and removes just enough organics as to not starve corals but to not allow nuissance growth of unwanted algaes. With the protein skimmer I think that the hydrophilic proteins are removed by the change in shape revealing the hydrophobic portions that RHF suggests. That would be the most logical answer to me. The organics that can't change shape could be taken up by corals, algaes, ect in metabolic pathways. I could be totally wrong though.....
 
Is that suppose to be like a nervous laugh when you don't understand something and are trying to not come off as being stupid?
;)
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9542208#post9542208 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mogrash
In that case, why skim at all since potentially the majority of proteins will not be skimmed out, while lipids and other organic molecules will? Would water changes and carbon be more economical vs skimmer electricity? Or large refugiums/scrubbers?

I mean, I have noticed that if I let detritus sit in my sump for a bit my skimmer eventually starts pulling out gobs and gobs of skimmate. If I siphon out the detritus it severly cuts down the amount of gunk the skimmer is pulling out. That alone makes me wonder just how efficient these things are.
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Because skimmers dont just take out hydrophobic/hydrophillic polarized protiens. They also take all sorts of things out like bacteria, plankton, etc, all of which can use those soluble chemicals.

"I mean, I have noticed that if I let detritus sit in my sump for a bit my skimmer eventually starts pulling out gobs and gobs of skimmate."

Your skimmer can only deal with what goes thorugh it. It can't do anythign about you not having enough flow to keep waste in suspension.
 
Yes I know they take out bacteria and algae. By skimming you are working as an export. Don't bacteria provide food for corals? Don't they provide food for pods and on up the chain until our fish and corals can eat them? Does removing these help us? Is the skimmer better at removing undissolved organics better than dissolved?

And of course the skimmer can only deal with what goes through it. The question is what does it actually deal with, how efficient is it at dealing with that and do we want the side effects? What if it is removing potentially beneficial stuff and letting bad stuff pass through?

Now I have a 210g aquarium with a 100g sump and a 58g refugium. I have 1200gph main pump and 3x6100 Tunze. I have a Mag7 feeding the refugium and a Maxi400 feeding my carbon reactor.
 
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"What if it is removing potentially beneficial stuff and letting bad stuff pass through?"

If that was the case, we'd have a lot more problems in this hobby. THere are plenty of use who run SPS tanks with just a skimmer, and go months without water changes. If it was taking out the beneficial, and leaving in bad stuff, these tanks would see an accumulation of bad stuff. They dont, they run wonderfully.
 
They also have to feed very heavily from my understanding because the corals are starving. Seems like the skimmer is removing the food source that is most important to corals.

Do you know the exact composition of skimmate? If you don't care then this thread is not for you. If skimmers are pulling out potential food for corals and pods then I question it's use. To my knowledge we don't really know what skimmers take out, other than if it sits around for a couple of days in the collection cup it stinks pretty bad. Well, so does the ocean during low tide!

This isn't a discussion on what works and what doesn't. Many different methods work. People run skimmerless and don't have to do water changes either. In theory I should be able to setup a refugium that is lit and feeds my entire tank. The fish and corals produce waste that is in turn taken up by the refugium and produces more food for the fish, just like in nature. A skimmer would disrupt that cycle.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9652331#post9652331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mogrash
Well, so does the ocean during low tide!
Click to expand...

There's nothing quite like the aroma of a mud flat at low tide :D

Unfortunately for me, a grad student is currently using some space in my lab to study sulfide producing bacteria...I get to enjoy that aroma just before lunch twice a week :eek2:
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9652331#post9652331 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Mogrash
They also have to feed very heavily from my understanding because the corals are starving. Seems like the skimmer is removing the food source that is most important to corals.

Do you know the exact composition of skimmate? If you don't care then this thread is not for you. If skimmers are pulling out potential food for corals and pods then I question it's use. To my knowledge we don't really know what skimmers take out, other than if it sits around for a couple of days in the collection cup it stinks pretty bad. Well, so does the ocean during low tide!

This isn't a discussion on what works and what doesn't. Many different methods work. People run skimmerless and don't have to do water changes either. In theory I should be able to setup a refugium that is lit and feeds my entire tank. The fish and corals produce waste that is in turn taken up by the refugium and produces more food for the fish, just like in nature. A skimmer would disrupt that cycle.
Click to expand...

Mogrash, of course a skimmer takes out potential coral food. Thats not the point. The point is that it does more good than bad. If you want to worry about taking out coral food, you shouldnt be doing water changes, because that takes away coral food. You shouldnt be harvesting macro, because that takes away coral food. The problem is, we dont have the huge nutrient dispersal system in our tanks that is present in nature.


A couple of labs have tried to run large scale coral systems with just refugiums, and no water changes. They generally fail. The plants just produce too many chemicals for the corals to survive.


My biggest issue with this thread, is the "just like in nature." To properly understand a reef aquarium, you have to toss nature out the window. There is no way a reef aquarium will EVER function like the ocean. The ocean is the single largest chemical and temperature buffer on the planet. Areas of the reef can produce all sorts of things that if the ocean didnt just carry them away, would kill the reef. They can feed off things that aren't produced in that slice of reef because currents just carry things there.

Theres nothing natural about our tanks.
 
One of tthe exports of hydrophyllic proteins is through the nitrogen cycle.

Protein degrades to ammonia through the degradation of the nitrogenous bases in the differing amino acids. It's pretty complicated, but if you looked i'm sure you could find a detailed break down of bacterial degradation of protein.

So, in short, proper nitrate export should be more then sufficient for the export of the hydrophyllic proteins.
 
<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=9676835#post9676835 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by Qcks
One of tthe exports of hydrophyllic proteins is through the nitrogen cycle.

Protein degrades to ammonia through the degradation of the nitrogenous bases in the differing amino acids. It's pretty complicated, but if you looked i'm sure you could find a detailed break down of bacterial degradation of protein.

So, in short, proper nitrate export should be more then sufficient for the export of the hydrophyllic proteins.
Click to expand...


In reasonable terms, the nitrate cycle doesnt export anything. Yes, we get nitrogen gas, but not in any reasonable quantities. Thats why unmaintained tanks tend to have nitrate problems.

Also, nitrate is not a big issue, phosphate is.
 
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