Small Wierd Spots on Puffer
- Thread starter Adam S
- Start date
Stuart60611
New member
That sounds like ich exactly how it appeared on my dogface. White dots on the fins and on edges of his back tail. The black dots are likely skin irritations and maybe the start of some bacterial infection which often results from the wounds left from where the parasites fall off. You cannot really treat the bacterial infection without first treating the ich, but it is often what winds up killing the fish and not the ich. Sure sounds to me like ich. If you do not treat, your puffer will either make a turn for the possitive pretty quick or go down hill real fast. Once ich gets a hold strongly with puffers, they usually do not survive without treatment. Hopefully, your guy can gain the upperhand and fight it off. Your foxface, on the other hand, tolerates ich much better than puffers and likely will survive even a strong infestation for quite a while.
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Stuart60611
New member
Ya, that is not really a good thing. I bet he puffed up in response to some discomfort from the parasites and did so as a defensive response to the parasites biting him.
Pufferpunk
New member
Adam, I have had very good success treating crypt with high doses of Vitamin C. You must have a good skimmer. It will also reduce your nitrate to 0, which is another benefit. You should also soak the fish's foods in garlic to boost their immune system.
Dosing Vitamin C Chart
Use this product:
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=-7152293197697039798
$5 0ff coupon code: LUL789 (always good for first purchase).
Keep refrigerated.
To figure out how much to use, decide if you want to simply improve coral growth, spread, and color. If so, then you should dose around 5 ppm twice daily. If you are having problems with coral or fish health, dose up to around 30 ppm twice daily.
Calculate the total net number of gallons in your tank (minus rocks, sand, etc). Enter that number here ______.
You will now need to do a little math. The amounts below are for 100 gallons of water so if you have 50 net gallons, cut the amounts shown below in half etc. No need to be exact--I usually round to the nearest 1/4 tsp.
Dosing amounts using Iherb product:
1/4 tsp=1112 mg.
For every 100 gallons:
5 ppm ----- 1892 mg VC
10 ppm ---- 3785 mg VC
15 ppm ---- 5677 mg VC
20 ppm ---- 7570 mg VC
25 ppm ---- 9462 mg VC
30 ppm ---- 11355 mg VC
After you have figured out how much you want to dose at each dosing, enter that number here _____. This is your dose to be used twice a day. Try for at least one dose being done during lights out, as VC absorbs better in the dark.
Notes:
*Be sure your pH and alk are within normal reef limits before starting. Adjust if needed. Monitor weekly.
*Shoot for a ppm of around 5 if only dosing for improved coral growth, coloration, and spread. Shoot for higher amounts up to 30 ppm if you are having melting zoas or closed zoas and look for the causes of your problems as you dose. Check for high nitrates, pests, zoa pox, predators, and unstable water conditions.
*Dose low amounts and increase the amount slowly over the course of a few days to a couple weeks.
*Do NOT dose at high levels (>10ppm), if you don’t have a skimmer! Especially on a nano tank.
* If you notice an algae bloom or increased skim on your glass then cut back by half until it disappears.
* Watch your skimmer, it will start to skim more.
* Dose the amount twice a day in a fast moving area of your sump or overflow. You may dilute the vitamin c in ro/di water for a minute then pour into my overflow. If adding to sump, try and add the vitamin c after filtration such as skimmers and reactors.
* If you have a question, ask here. I check VC threads daily.
* The instructions in this guide and throughout this thread are based on using pure Sodium Ascorbate, not vitamin c pills and other non-buffered forms of vitamin c.
Dosing Vitamin C Chart
Use this product:
http://www.iherb.com/ProductDetails.aspx?c=1&pid=-7152293197697039798
$5 0ff coupon code: LUL789 (always good for first purchase).
Keep refrigerated.
To figure out how much to use, decide if you want to simply improve coral growth, spread, and color. If so, then you should dose around 5 ppm twice daily. If you are having problems with coral or fish health, dose up to around 30 ppm twice daily.
Calculate the total net number of gallons in your tank (minus rocks, sand, etc). Enter that number here ______.
You will now need to do a little math. The amounts below are for 100 gallons of water so if you have 50 net gallons, cut the amounts shown below in half etc. No need to be exact--I usually round to the nearest 1/4 tsp.
Dosing amounts using Iherb product:
1/4 tsp=1112 mg.
For every 100 gallons:
5 ppm ----- 1892 mg VC
10 ppm ---- 3785 mg VC
15 ppm ---- 5677 mg VC
20 ppm ---- 7570 mg VC
25 ppm ---- 9462 mg VC
30 ppm ---- 11355 mg VC
After you have figured out how much you want to dose at each dosing, enter that number here _____. This is your dose to be used twice a day. Try for at least one dose being done during lights out, as VC absorbs better in the dark.
Notes:
*Be sure your pH and alk are within normal reef limits before starting. Adjust if needed. Monitor weekly.
*Shoot for a ppm of around 5 if only dosing for improved coral growth, coloration, and spread. Shoot for higher amounts up to 30 ppm if you are having melting zoas or closed zoas and look for the causes of your problems as you dose. Check for high nitrates, pests, zoa pox, predators, and unstable water conditions.
*Dose low amounts and increase the amount slowly over the course of a few days to a couple weeks.
*Do NOT dose at high levels (>10ppm), if you don’t have a skimmer! Especially on a nano tank.
* If you notice an algae bloom or increased skim on your glass then cut back by half until it disappears.
* Watch your skimmer, it will start to skim more.
* Dose the amount twice a day in a fast moving area of your sump or overflow. You may dilute the vitamin c in ro/di water for a minute then pour into my overflow. If adding to sump, try and add the vitamin c after filtration such as skimmers and reactors.
* If you have a question, ask here. I check VC threads daily.
* The instructions in this guide and throughout this thread are based on using pure Sodium Ascorbate, not vitamin c pills and other non-buffered forms of vitamin c.
Pufferpunk
New member
Stuart, According to the makers of Bio-Spira, the split from FW-SW bacteria is around 1.012.
Stuart60611
New member
That is really interesting. If that is correct, the only explanation is that the freshwater bacteria can multiple and mature in about 3-5 days sufficiently to handle a substantial bioload. I just have trouble thinking that is possible, but maybe it is. I am sure, however, based on no less than knowing more than 20 instances where people have hypoed their display tanks, and the bacteria filter handled the tank's bioload after bring display down from full salinity to hypo in less than 1 week's time. Just do a search here, and you will find many such instances. I still feel that the only likely explanation is that the existing marine bacteria are functioning. Regardless of why, the important fact is that the bacteria do the job at hypo level.
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Pufferpunk
New member
Since working with BW often, I have seen many, many instances of folks crashing their system by raising their SG faster than .002/week.
Stuart60611
New member
That is a totally different issue. The reasons livestock dies when you raise your salinity too fast is that livestock cannot adjust to the ozmotic (sp?) pressure changes fast enough. You can drop salinty rapidly without a problem, but you cannot raise it back up fast.
I just did a quick search and easily found a whole bunch of threads (3 of which are listed below) which contain multiple examples of people who hypoed their displays, rock and sand, and the bacteria filter functioned fine after the initial fauna die off. Again, the only real concern about hypoing the display is the ammonia generated from the initial fauna die off which could be very substantial or hardly substantial depending on how "live" your rock and sand are. Bacteria will work just fine at hypo levels.
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1308067&highlight=hyposalinity+display
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1474102&highlight=hypo+display
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1933070&highlight=ich
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Pufferpunk
New member
Not true at all for BW species, who live in areas where the SG fluctuates greatly, depending on rainy season, tide, etc. It is the biological bacteria crash that has caused the demise of the entire system. I'll look at those links later (after work).
Stuart60611
New member
Ys, but for those BW species, the salinity may fluctuate greatly, but the fluctuations occur slowly because it takes days for the rain, or lack thereof, to lower or raise salinity. It is not that fish cannot handle substantial increases in salinity because they can, they just cannot handle large increases in salinity quickly and need days to adjust to increases which are greater than .2. In the dry season, the salinity lowers slowly as water evaporates, and therefore, the fish have time to adjust to the increased salinity.
Bear in mind the cupramine will show false ammonia readings on many test kits. Check with the manufacturer as to what tests are accurate while dosing cupramine.
Ummm.... Bacteria for the most part do not die during hyposalinity. Depending on the size of system, the bacteria may struggle longer to re-establish and handle the ammonia spikes. The bacteria does not die, rather it adapts...depending on the health of the system, die off, etc., will determine how long it will take to "ADAPT". See below.
"When the salinity in the system is lowered initially, it is done as if performing a normal water change, except that the replacement water is simply RO water or detoxified tap water without the salt (Don Carner, pers. com.). (If the replacement water is RO/DI or other softened source, then a buffering agent should be employed to prevent pH and alkalinity drops; Thiel, 2003.) Make sure the freshwater you add is thoroughly mixed with the remaining saltwater in the tank as you proceed. This will assure that your salinity/specific gravity readings are accurate. Monitor the lowering closely so as to not reduce it too fast. Achieving the desired specific gravity over a period of several hours is fine (Don Carner, pers. com.). The bacteria colony in the biofilter will survive, the fish will survive, but the parasites will not (Don Carner, pers. com.). By lowering the salinity, we are also lowering the osmotic pressure of the water. The parasites NEED high osmotic pressure externally in order to maintain a normal water balance within their bodies (Don Carner, pers. com.). Reduce the salinity of the surrounding saltwater sufficiently, and water moves by osmosis into the parasites' bodies until they literally explode. As a higher life form, the fish can withstand this treatment very well and quickly adjust to the reduced salinity; invertebrates and parasites cannot (Don Carner, pers. com.). In addition, when administering OST it is important to monitor your ammonia and nitrite levels closely at first.
Although I have never had a problem in that regard, it's possible that hyposalinity may temporarily impact the nitrifying bacteria in your biofilter, so check your readings closely to see if there is a spike once you've reached your target salinity. If so, a simple water change will correct the problem and your biofiltration will be back to normal shortly. (Bateleme 2006)."
Jenni: The crash of systems you state could simply be from the massive die off of "critters" in the sand bed / live rock that occured during this stage of resident bacteria adapting, resulting in massive ammonia spikes. This is why massive water changes, and especially ammonia detoxifiers (Prime / Amquel) are vital during this stage.
Of particular interest, is that the "stunting" of resident bacteria while lowering SG almost alwasy occurs, the same resident bacteria does not go through any transitional stage (adaptation) on the way back up to NSW. I have not read why this is, however I thought important to mention, since it does not appear that newly formed strains are required at either hyposaline / or hypersaline for that matter, but rather adaptation of the same resident strains.
Your recommendations of vitamin C are good, and potentially if the infestation is bad enough, Adam may enlist the help of his parents to employ hyposalinity as well.
SV
"When the salinity in the system is lowered initially, it is done as if performing a normal water change, except that the replacement water is simply RO water or detoxified tap water without the salt (Don Carner, pers. com.). (If the replacement water is RO/DI or other softened source, then a buffering agent should be employed to prevent pH and alkalinity drops; Thiel, 2003.) Make sure the freshwater you add is thoroughly mixed with the remaining saltwater in the tank as you proceed. This will assure that your salinity/specific gravity readings are accurate. Monitor the lowering closely so as to not reduce it too fast. Achieving the desired specific gravity over a period of several hours is fine (Don Carner, pers. com.). The bacteria colony in the biofilter will survive, the fish will survive, but the parasites will not (Don Carner, pers. com.). By lowering the salinity, we are also lowering the osmotic pressure of the water. The parasites NEED high osmotic pressure externally in order to maintain a normal water balance within their bodies (Don Carner, pers. com.). Reduce the salinity of the surrounding saltwater sufficiently, and water moves by osmosis into the parasites' bodies until they literally explode. As a higher life form, the fish can withstand this treatment very well and quickly adjust to the reduced salinity; invertebrates and parasites cannot (Don Carner, pers. com.). In addition, when administering OST it is important to monitor your ammonia and nitrite levels closely at first.
Although I have never had a problem in that regard, it's possible that hyposalinity may temporarily impact the nitrifying bacteria in your biofilter, so check your readings closely to see if there is a spike once you've reached your target salinity. If so, a simple water change will correct the problem and your biofiltration will be back to normal shortly. (Bateleme 2006)."
Jenni: The crash of systems you state could simply be from the massive die off of "critters" in the sand bed / live rock that occured during this stage of resident bacteria adapting, resulting in massive ammonia spikes. This is why massive water changes, and especially ammonia detoxifiers (Prime / Amquel) are vital during this stage.
Of particular interest, is that the "stunting" of resident bacteria while lowering SG almost alwasy occurs, the same resident bacteria does not go through any transitional stage (adaptation) on the way back up to NSW. I have not read why this is, however I thought important to mention, since it does not appear that newly formed strains are required at either hyposaline / or hypersaline for that matter, but rather adaptation of the same resident strains.
Your recommendations of vitamin C are good, and potentially if the infestation is bad enough, Adam may enlist the help of his parents to employ hyposalinity as well.
SV
Stuart60611
New member
Svejil:
That is 100% consistent with everything I have experienced on two separate occassions and have read. I would add as I indicated above that the period of temporary retardation of the bacteria while adaptation to newly lowered salinity occurs can often be completely avoided (or greatly shortened) by simply adding a high quality live bacteria product several days before and throughout the first week of hyposalinity. The real problem is that even if you able to get your bacterial filter functioning at full capacity quickly the amount of ammonia generated in a sudden condensed surge from the fauna die off can be greater than the current bacterial colony can break down fast enough. As such, ammonia binders, water changes, manual removal of decaying organic matter (especially worms or other inverts), and live bacteria additions are the tools you use to manage the ammonia surge which you must stay ahead of or all fish will die. In about 1 week (and probably less in most systems) after you reach hypo level in the display, the ammonia surge should abate and controlling ammonia in hypo should no longer be an issue. Now, this assumes that no one is stupid enough to try this with corals or other larger life that cannot survive hypo conditions because you will never be able to change out enough water to deal with the magnatude of the ammonia surge generated from that level of die off. Hypo in the display is only possible (although very difficult and risky) with only rock and sand (and as few inverts as possible) and only usually surviveable for the fish when the system's fauna is not very developed.
That is 100% consistent with everything I have experienced on two separate occassions and have read. I would add as I indicated above that the period of temporary retardation of the bacteria while adaptation to newly lowered salinity occurs can often be completely avoided (or greatly shortened) by simply adding a high quality live bacteria product several days before and throughout the first week of hyposalinity. The real problem is that even if you able to get your bacterial filter functioning at full capacity quickly the amount of ammonia generated in a sudden condensed surge from the fauna die off can be greater than the current bacterial colony can break down fast enough. As such, ammonia binders, water changes, manual removal of decaying organic matter (especially worms or other inverts), and live bacteria additions are the tools you use to manage the ammonia surge which you must stay ahead of or all fish will die. In about 1 week (and probably less in most systems) after you reach hypo level in the display, the ammonia surge should abate and controlling ammonia in hypo should no longer be an issue. Now, this assumes that no one is stupid enough to try this with corals or other larger life that cannot survive hypo conditions because you will never be able to change out enough water to deal with the magnatude of the ammonia surge generated from that level of die off. Hypo in the display is only possible (although very difficult and risky) with only rock and sand (and as few inverts as possible) and only usually surviveable for the fish when the system's fauna is not very developed.
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Pufferpunk
New member
You must not treat your display tank with copper.
Theyr 200 micron...ill prolly just remove em to make sure.
Pufferpunk
New member
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