Snake oil doctor's fish looked great yesterday

[maddhugan]

I did tank transfer method and watched the fish for 3 weeks and then introduced them into display. The after a week I saw ich in my Powder Blue Tang. Broke my heart.

It is possible that I didn't follow proper sterilization/sanitation protocols while I did the tank transfer method.


So here is the surprising thing, I went to buy fish from a guy and he had let's say like 300 fish (anthias, tangs etcc and you name it). There was no ich in his tank. I was like ****ed and ***. So I asked him what he does to keep ICH out. He just told me he doesn't quarantine his fish but he just feeds them well. At this point I either don't believe him or I tend to think that he is extremely lucky.

He also believes that ich is always on the fish no matter what, let's say he thinks of ich as a symptom rather than a micro organism. Def the guy was not educated and he was thinking the ICH can come out of nowhere when fish is stressed, he was kind of telling a "Spontaneous Generation," theory although he might not know what it was. So his theory was that a fish may not have any ich at all, but when that same fish was stressed, then the fish can manufacture the ich out of nowhere. This means the fish has to manufacture the DNA material of the ich and the whole ich itself very fast when the fish is stressed. Fish doesn't need a ich cyst to begin with. Well, nobody accused him of being an expert in microbiology. By now, I had enough. I was like "whatever man," and when I was about to leave he said, "Hello," and showed me his secret bottle; the SNAKE OIL, It was a garlic bottle. I confirmed that he was nothing but a Snake Oil Doctor; but I have to give this to him though, all of his hundreds of fish in that over-populated tank looked fat and healthy. I have no clue how.........very strange. I don't mean to say we all know everything about ich and it's treatment, we all have little bit of snake oil in us but it's nothing when compared to that guy's snake oil.

He also said one more thing before I left that place, "every hobbyist develops his own method to stay away from ich and there is no common and standard way." well, he successfully has his fish without ich, so what can I say........

 

[jmc1974]

I can attest to the garlic, in the past I had a beautiful display tank and I found out that quarantine fish has less chance of survival than fish that was healthy when purchased and introduced to the display same day. I did feed all my fishes their food saturated on garlic overnight, and always where healthy , fat and ich free. Also I did saved couple of fishes from a dying store "Petco" covered in ich, those I did do the quarantine for few days feeding them same garlic saturated food , but also reduced the salinity or did the hypo salinity gradually to help them.

 

[derek]

The guy you are insulting is right, at least in my experience, ich is always in the tank, we just don't see it. And as soon as the fish are stressed it breaks out. Anyone who has been doing this for a while has experienced this. A temperature fluctuation is a common. I usually assume I have screwed something up when I see ich.

If it was healthy just feed a bit heavier for a couple of weeks and the ich should clear up.

 

[maddhugan]

not insulting anyone but look at it in a scientific perspective

not insulting anyone but look at it in a scientific perspective

The guy you are insulting is right, at least in my experience, ich is always in the tank, we just don't see it. And as soon as the fish are stressed it breaks out. Anyone who has been doing this for a while has experienced this. A temperature fluctuation is a common. I usually assume I have screwed something up when I see ich.

If it was healthy just feed a bit heavier for a couple of weeks and the ich should clear up.

Well, my intention is not to insult anyone, but the snake oil view point is just not in accordance with the mainstream expert's papers and there is not much logic in itself, that's all.

What you are saying is also a myth (according to mainstream experts), i.e., ICH doesn't have to be there always in your tank, it is possible to have a ich free tank. According to them, if your tank is ich free, then even if your fish is stressed for some reason, then it won't get ich because there is no ich in your tank to begin with. You see what I'm saying here? There is no possibility of "SPONTANEOUS GENERATION," in your tank. I'm no expert but I tend to follow what makes sense, that's all.

I would have to say I agree with the mainstream experts in the field of microbiology who have conducted studies on this marine ich.

May be our snake oil doctor friend is having a time bomb on his hand. Once when (or I should say "if") the water quality gets bad then all his fish will die very soon? who knows? But I won't risk having the ich in my tank. Like I said before, I will give this much to the snake oil doctor as of now, i.e., he does have all his fish ich free now. very surprising though.

 

[maddhugan]

no no big no no

no no big no no

I can attest to the garlic, in the past I had a beautiful display tank and I found out that quarantine fish has less chance of survival than fish that was healthy when purchased and introduced to the display same day. I did feed all my fishes their food saturated on garlic overnight, and always where healthy , fat and ich free. Also I did saved couple of fishes from a dying store "Petco" covered in ich, those I did do the quarantine for few days feeding them same garlic saturated food , but also reduced the salinity or did the hypo salinity gradually to help them.

Oh no no. I won't put a fish in display without tank transfer, and proper quarantine. That's a big no no, and a lot of money we all spend on this you know. I would recommend everyone to quarantine the fish first. I would have to strongly disagree with you in this case. I have nothing against Garlic, and I even use it once in a while if a fish is not eating to increase its appetite but if someone tells me that it is the secret of ich free tank and it is the holy grail snake oil, then I have to disagree sir. No insult intended here, its just we think very differently about handling the same problem.

 

[maddhugan]

No snake oil for me, no thanks

No snake oil for me, no thanks

planning on pulling out all fish from display and do the tank transfer method again (this time very carefully) and then watch my fish in quarantine for 4 weeks and only after leaving my display fallow for 10 to 12 weeks I will introduce fish into display. So planning on introducing corals/invertibrates immediately after I pull out fish from display. once that is don't nothing will be introduced to this tank for the next 10 to 12 weeks.
that's the plan.

 

[africangrey]

These are classic examples of difference in western and eastern approach to medical treatments, eastern way of thinking tent to believe the whole body is interconnected entity and treat as such .... holistic approach rather then the western approach where everything is analyzed it into molecular level. There is no right or wrong way, but just different school of thoughts.
I believe in treating the root cause then the symptom itself.

 

[maddhugan]

two types in forums preaching two different things

two types in forums preaching two different things

1. one group says there is no way one can get rid of ICH, just contain it and manage it by snake oil or some other method like UV
2. Another group says just wipe out ich and it shouldn't be there in the display at all, becasue it is just a time bomb which will kill all the fish when the time is right for the ich.

I have achieved neither, I will the method 2 though.
Almost all aquarium shops in bay area have ich

1. neptune aquatics has it
2. keith's coral has it. look at display
3. King aquarium saltwater fish is wiped out now, all dead of marine velvet and ich. they are not ordering saltwater fish for now
4. all petcos are florishing with ich blooms

 

[najluni15]

Ich is pretty hard to get rid of without intense treatment of all fish and leaving display fallow for full ich life cycle. However you can have ich and suppress it by havING healthy fish. For example I left my tank fallow for 6 weeks with all fish under cupra treatment. Unfortunately one potters angel wasn't eating so I bit the bullet and put them back in display. They all have ich but their immune systems are healthy and suppress the symptoms of ich. But if something stresses them they occasionally flare up

 

[maddhugan]

you are right

you are right

Ich is pretty hard to get rid of without intense treatment of all fish and leaving display fallow for full ich life cycle. However you can have ich and suppress it by havING healthy fish. For example I left my tank fallow for 6 weeks with all fish under cupra treatment. Unfortunately one potters angel wasn't eating so I bit the bullet and put them back in display. They all have ich but their immune systems are healthy and suppress the symptoms of ich. But if something stresses them they occasionally flare up

Yes, I agree with you on this. But all I'm saying is it is possible to have a tank without ich by proper quarantine process. Difficult, but not impossible.

 

[rlman41299]

Yes, I agree with you on this. But all I'm saying is it is possible to have a tank without ich by proper quarantine process. Difficult, but not impossible.

Having an ich free tank is doable but needs a lot of patience. I have tried it 3 times and I can say that I have achieved it. 1st and second try was unsuccessful even though I ran the tank fallow for 80 days. Never knew that even corals can re infect your tank if the corals came from an infected tank. Last qt I did ran the tank fallow for 90 days and fish were in qt for same days, I know it took a while but from now on everything that goes in my main tank gets qt even inverts and corals for 90 days on a fish less qt.
Even a single drop of infected water can do damage on a ich free tank if in fact that dropped water has ich on it, can multiply very fast.
As for all lfs, yes they all do have ich but only a few stores I have been to will even admit they do have it, heck they won't even suggest qt'ing your fish. One lfs in Fremont (we all know which one) even advised me not to get their fish when I came by for they are battling ich at the moment. One in Hayward even advised me to qt all fish no matter where I get them even If I get them from wholesalers. These are the reason I don't mind driving when I visit lfs for the same reason.

 

[maddhugan]

i completely agree with you

i completely agree with you

Having an ich free tank is doable but needs a lot of patience. I have tried it 3 times and I can say that I have achieved it. 1st and second try was unsuccessful even though I ran the tank fallow for 80 days. Never knew that even corals can re infect your tank if the corals came from an infected tank. Last qt I did ran the tank fallow for 90 days and fish were in qt for same days, I know it took a while but from now on everything that goes in my main tank gets qt even inverts and corals for 90 days on a fish less qt.
Even a single drop of infected water can do damage on a ich free tank if in fact that dropped water has ich on it, can multiply very fast.
As for all lfs, yes they all do have ich but only a few stores I have been to will even admit they do have it, heck they won't even suggest qt'ing your fish. One lfs in Fremont (we all know which one) even advised me not to get their fish when I came by for they are battling ich at the moment. One in Hayward even advised me to qt all fish no matter where I get them even If I get them from wholesalers. These are the reason I don't mind driving when I visit lfs for the same reason.

Yes, I totally agree with you on this.
Since my display was started couple of weeks ago, my plan is to drain the saltwater and run it with RODI for two weeks? ich cysts can live in RODI for two weeks right? But I agree with you that all inverts and corals need to be quarantined since they may have the cysts of ick that my hatch later once it is in your tank.

 

[Crispy001]

Additional feeding is often enough to stop ich from my experience. The parasite is a lot less dangerous than people make it out to be.

 

[reev]

1. one group says there is no way one can get rid of ICH, just contain it and manage it by snake oil or some other method like UV
2. Another group says just wipe out ich and it shouldn't be there in the display at all, becasue it is just a time bomb which will kill all the fish when the time is right for the ich.

[/LIST]

I also believe in #2: it is possible to have an ich-free tank. This is just my personal opinion, based on my experience. I don't want to offend anyone thinking otherwise.

I started with fish only tank without knowing too much. It all went well for about 2 years, even though I didn't QTed any fish. Then I got the first ich outbreak. It was bad & it got worse because I didn't believe folks saying to take the fish out and go with either copper or hyposalinity. I tried all kind of in-tank treatments just to end up with most fish dead.

I finally gave in, took the fish out, did the hyposalinity treatment for 8 weeks total: couple days to lower the salinity, 4 weeks in hypo and then almost 4 weeks to bring the tank back to normal salinity & observe the fish. All fish recovered, except one angel which died when I lowered the salinity.

Then I started QTed fish, but I also started adding corals, these without QT. Well I got the ich again. I had 3 tangs, including a powder blue, clownfish, 2 angels, 2 wrasses, one lawnmower blenny and one anthias. Took all of them out by the time the powder blue had a lot of ich spots and was getting stressed. Did the hypo again. They all recovered & survived. Even the powder blue which was just laying in a corner right after I moved it to QT. But this time, I had to do the hypo for almost 12 weeks. After the first 4 weeks, while raising the salinity, the fish started showing ich signs again (maybe in the first round I didn't lower the salinity enough?!?), so I started another hypo cycle, 4 weeks more. It worked.

Since then I QT everything: fish, corals, rocks, CUC, algae...
I had multiple events in my tank since then: broken heater causing low temp, ATO overflow, aggressive fish, skimmer overflow, and even a on-the-rush move in which I stressed the entire tank unnecessary. Through all this I lost some corals, but my fish never showed ANY signs of ich.

As for food, I'm mostly feeding the fish New Life Spectrum Thera+ pellets and give the tangs seaweed from time to time. Yes, I believe that garlic boosts their immune system, but I don't believe that it is enough to protect them from ich. If it would be that simple, all fish farms would use it, and won't loose huge amounts of money on ich outbreaks.

BTW, I know at least one guy who had a store selling saltwater fish that was keeping the a low copper concentration in fish only tanks. According to him, the copper inhibits the ich cycle, and at low concentrations it takes a long while to be dangerous for fish.

 

[Reefer_Addickt]

1. one group says there is no way one can get rid of ICH, just contain it and manage it by snake oil or some other method like UV
2. Another group says just wipe out ich and it shouldn't be there in the display at all, becasue it is just a time bomb which will kill all the fish when the time is right for the ich.

I have achieved neither, I will the method 2 though.
Almost all aquarium shops in bay area have ich

Didn't know there were only two options for opinion. Furthermore your constant snake oil comment is old. So, option 1 must only be filled with fools to believe the snake oil methods?

I have had crypto in my main tank. I did nothing other than continue to keep the water clean and make sure the fish are eating. Fish didn't die. I didn't use snake oil.

This whole thread has a holier than you tone to it. Everyone who doesn't believe as you've stated must be uneducated or just wrong. So cool you've got it all figured out. Is this just for moral support of your opinion?

It's in the wild -
"Cryptocaryon is found in the ocean. Depending on how much you are intereted, you might want to read these papers:

Bunkley-Williams L. and Williams E.H. 1994. Disease caused by Trichodina spheroidesi and Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora) in wild coral reef fishes. Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6:360-361.

Diggles B.K. and Lester R.J.G. 1996. Infections of Cryptocaryon irritans on wild fish from southeast Queensland, Australia. Dis. aquat. Org. 25:159-167.

Wilkie D.W. and Gordin H. 1969. Outbreak of cryptocaryoniasis in marine aquaria at Scripps Institution of Oceanography. California Fish and Game 55:227-236."


https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

"Immunity
As is seen with other diseases, general fish health and environmental factors including water quality will affect the status of the fish's immune system and may worsen the effects of an infection. If the immune status of the fish is compromised or if environmental factors are less than optimal, Cryptocaryon infection will be even more explosive and harmful.

Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to 6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).

More targeted development of a vaccine to protect against Cryptocaryon irritans has been ongoing for a number of years (Yambot and Song 2006; Hatanaka 2007; Luo et al. 2007; Bai et al. 2008), and preliminary results are encouraging. However, vaccine development is a lengthy process, and no commercial vaccines are currently available."

 

[Doppler17]

So I have read this thread with fascination and was very entertained. Only once have I treated ich in anyway. It was probably 10 years ago and a few months after I set up my original FOWLR tank. In which I killed my royal gamma (by stress I am sure) in the process of trying to get it into the "hospital" tank. The two clowns I had then went into the H tank without issue. Survived the whole ordeal and lived for one of them a few years longer. The other clown I still have to this day. I have seen ich in my tank (after that first time) only after major tank moves which has happened a 3/4 times for "Buddy" the clown. He has not gotten ich on him since the original time. My yellow tang and the other clown have gotten it once or twice I the past 5 years. That said, I have never used copper since the first time. Never any other supplements or special foods when ich happens. If ich only lives a certain life span as I read above... Then even though my fish show 0 signs of it and are all fat and happy for years without any out breaks how is it still alive . What am I missing... Besides some snake oil...

I would have to guess that even though no signs are shown that it is "dormant" in there somewhere or in or on my fish dormant.

-not the brightest bulb above the tank here-

 

[maddhugan]

you decided to live with it..........

you decided to live with it..........

Didn't know there were only two options for opinion. Furthermore your constant snake oil comment is old. So, option 1 must only be filled with fools to believe the snake oil methods?

I have had crypto in my main tank. I did nothing other than continue to keep the water clean and make sure the fish are eating. Fish didn't die. I didn't use snake oil.

This whole thread has a holier than you tone to it. Everyone who doesn't believe as you've stated must be uneducated or just wrong. So cool you've got it all figured out. Is this just for moral support of your opinion?

It's in the wild -
"Cryptocaryon is found in the ocean. Depending on how much you are intereted, you might want to read these papers:

Bunkley-Williams L. and Williams E.H. 1994. Disease caused by Trichodina spheroidesi and Cryptocaryon irritans (Ciliophora) in wild coral reef fishes. Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6:360-361.

Diggles B.K. and Lester R.J.G. 1996. Infections of Cryptocaryon irritans on wild fish from southeast Queensland, Australia. Dis. aquat. Org. 25:159-167.

Wilkie D.W. and Gordin H. 1969. Outbreak of cryptocaryoniasis in marine aquaria at Scripps Institution of Oceanography. California Fish and Game 55:227-236."


https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

"Immunity
As is seen with other diseases, general fish health and environmental factors including water quality will affect the status of the fish's immune system and may worsen the effects of an infection. If the immune status of the fish is compromised or if environmental factors are less than optimal, Cryptocaryon infection will be even more explosive and harmful.

Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to 6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).

More targeted development of a vaccine to protect against Cryptocaryon irritans has been ongoing for a number of years (Yambot and Song 2006; Hatanaka 2007; Luo et al. 2007; Bai et al. 2008), and preliminary results are encouraging. However, vaccine development is a lengthy process, and no commercial vaccines are currently available."

did I offend you by calling you snake oil? sorry. well, you decided to live with it rather than eliminating ich, and that's ok too man. whatever makes you happy. But don't tell me that, that's the right thing to do. Tanks like that can be time bombs. The problem is if you add a new fish or something like that then the fish that are immune will give the ich to the new comer. Then there will be fish loss. It is a headache. I never claimed that I figured it all out but your tone definitely does.

 

[Robert4025]

This is a typical "me against the world" or "I will be the exception" mentality. I bet Madduggan will eventually figured out and give up on this and will accept his faith just like all the reefers before him...lol

 

[maddhugan]

faith? huh

faith? huh

This is a typical "me against the world" or "I will be the exception" mentality. I bet Madduggan will eventually figured out and give up on this and will accept his faith just like all the reefers before him...lol

I don't get you. Faith? WHAT FAITH? I'm sorry I'm not religious and also, I don't believe in anything that's untrue.
Are you trying to say that I will give up on the idea of ich-free tank, and eventually develop faith in snake oil, and just accept a tank with ich and start sustaining a tank with ich instead of eliminating ich? NEVER.

 

[Robert4025]

I don't get you. Faith? WHAT FAITH? I'm sorry I'm not religious and also, I don't believe in anything that's untrue.
Are you trying to say that I will give up on the idea of ich-free tank, and eventually develop faith in snake oil, and just accept a tank with ich and start sustaining a tank with ich instead of eliminating ich? NEVER.