Robert4025
Member
Okay! :lmao:
Snake oil doctor's fish looked great yesterday
- Thread starter maddhugan
- Start date
Okay! :lmao:
D-Nak
Active member
To me, trying to have a completely ich free system isn't worth the trouble. Obviously, it makes sense to QT all new acquisitions to see if ich is present, and if it is, the fish shouldn't be introduced into the DT.
I've tried all types of ich prevention and treatment -- I've used CP, Ich Shield (both the bath and food), TTM, etc. -- and on all occasions I've felt that I've cleared a fish of ich, added it to the DT, but there were still times when my other fish looked like they had ich and in all occasions it simply went away.
Since science and common sense tells us that ich simply doesn't disappear on its own, then we assume that a healthy fish -- given good environmental conditions including clean water with stable parameters -- can fight off ich. In other words, there's no snake oil, no tricks, no magic solution. It just boils down to what we've always known... healthy fish = ich-resistant (not necessarily ich-free) fish.
I've tried all types of ich prevention and treatment -- I've used CP, Ich Shield (both the bath and food), TTM, etc. -- and on all occasions I've felt that I've cleared a fish of ich, added it to the DT, but there were still times when my other fish looked like they had ich and in all occasions it simply went away.
Since science and common sense tells us that ich simply doesn't disappear on its own, then we assume that a healthy fish -- given good environmental conditions including clean water with stable parameters -- can fight off ich. In other words, there's no snake oil, no tricks, no magic solution. It just boils down to what we've always known... healthy fish = ich-resistant (not necessarily ich-free) fish.
vhuang168
New member
Snake oil doctor's fish looked great yesterday
You would have to qt EVERYTHING! Non fish will have to be in a fish less qt for at least 72 days. Meaning any coral you add, rock, inverts, sand, everything! If you just setup the tank, if you used any live rock or live sand you have to leave the tank fallow. Heck to be 100%, you would have to be fallow even if you used dead stuff.
Meaning you have to setup a qt tank just for that and maintain it so that your coral won't die.
Even then, there is no guarantee that ich will not make it through your quarantine procedures. TTM can fail as you've found out. You'll have to catch every single fish and TTM them then into another tank of similar size for 72 days while your DT runs fallow.
So good luck with that! My tank is (as far as I know) ich free again. After the last outbreak that killed almost every fish. The tank was fallow for 72 days then every fish added went through TTM but that failed on me the last time. This time I'm just gonna manage it if it breaks out.
My coral qt is only a few weeks, just to make sure no coral pests gets introduced to my tank.
You would have to qt EVERYTHING! Non fish will have to be in a fish less qt for at least 72 days. Meaning any coral you add, rock, inverts, sand, everything! If you just setup the tank, if you used any live rock or live sand you have to leave the tank fallow. Heck to be 100%, you would have to be fallow even if you used dead stuff.
Meaning you have to setup a qt tank just for that and maintain it so that your coral won't die.
Even then, there is no guarantee that ich will not make it through your quarantine procedures. TTM can fail as you've found out. You'll have to catch every single fish and TTM them then into another tank of similar size for 72 days while your DT runs fallow.
So good luck with that! My tank is (as far as I know) ich free again. After the last outbreak that killed almost every fish. The tank was fallow for 72 days then every fish added went through TTM but that failed on me the last time. This time I'm just gonna manage it if it breaks out.
My coral qt is only a few weeks, just to make sure no coral pests gets introduced to my tank.
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Reefer_Addickt
Premium Member
I didn't tell YOU to accept anything or do anything in your tank, man.
I reported what I've done and information on the problem.
You sound uneducated from the start of this thread. Which is my point. So you're calling the kettle black which is the other point.
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164
"Immunity
Fish that survive a Cryptocaryon infection develop immunity, which can prevent significant disease for up to 6 months (Burgess 1992; Burgess and Matthews 1995). However, these survivors may act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks (Colorni and Burgess 1997).
"Spontaneous Generation," theory = "act as carriers and provide a reservoir for future outbreaks" .
So you CAN buy a fish with no SIGNS of Crypto and it CAN create an outbreak if conditions in aquarium cause stress.
6 month quarantine on fish sounds fun. Hope you have an amazing quarantine tank. 6 months of that could kill the fish in itself.
So i'll take the experts whose articles I cited as experts and not you.
xinumaster
reef addict
ICH=Herpes
ICH in there body, and can come out when the fish is stress out.
ICH in there body, and can come out when the fish is stress out.
maddhugan
New member
Do you qurantine your new fish?
Do you qurantine your new fish?
You can call me "uneducated," or whatever you want and I'm not offended by it because I'm very comfortable with my education and what I do for living and let's leave it at that.
let's keep the discussion open though. I know you have ich in your tank. Yeah I agree that your fish are immune to ich/ carrier/hiding in small % etc........
Don't you really wish you had a tank free of ich? no genetic material of ich whatsoever in your tank?
another question, do you quarantine your new fish?
Do you qurantine your new fish?
You can call me "uneducated," or whatever you want and I'm not offended by it because I'm very comfortable with my education and what I do for living and let's leave it at that.
let's keep the discussion open though. I know you have ich in your tank. Yeah I agree that your fish are immune to ich/ carrier/hiding in small % etc........
Don't you really wish you had a tank free of ich? no genetic material of ich whatsoever in your tank?
another question, do you quarantine your new fish?
maddhugan
New member
not true
not true
not true though, it doesn't have to be like that. If you do tank transfer method , then all trophonts of ich will fall off and by the end of the tank transfer method no ich will be inside or outside(attached) to the fish's body.
No it is not like herpes. Herpes doesn't have a similar life cycle like that of the marine ich. Poor comparison. Comparing an apple to an orange. Sorry.
Trophonts stage can only stay on the fish's body only from 3 to 7 days and it does fall off the fish. After all the trophonts had fallen off, your fish is free of any ich's genetic material. Nothing is hidden inside it's body. period.
not true
not true though, it doesn't have to be like that. If you do tank transfer method , then all trophonts of ich will fall off and by the end of the tank transfer method no ich will be inside or outside(attached) to the fish's body.
No it is not like herpes. Herpes doesn't have a similar life cycle like that of the marine ich. Poor comparison. Comparing an apple to an orange. Sorry.
Trophonts stage can only stay on the fish's body only from 3 to 7 days and it does fall off the fish. After all the trophonts had fallen off, your fish is free of any ich's genetic material. Nothing is hidden inside it's body. period.
kes_reef
Premium Member
The way it's written, I believe Robert meant to say, "fate". :fun2:
Few things I can add - tangs (particularly powder blue tang) are notorious for succumbing to ich perhaps more so than any other fish; they're known as ich-magnets! Not sure what you mean by 'tank transfer method'. Was the PB a newly acquired fish or from your previous tank?
Wasn't clear in your post about the tank with 300 fish but my guess is it's a fish only setup. If so, perhaps copper or hyposalinity, UV was used.
Though I doubt garlic extract has any direct effect on ich (and I haven't seen any claims by manufacturers to say it does), it acts as an appetite attractant, which in turn, can help boost fish' immune system. Fish that are stressed, with lower immune systems are more likely to exhibit symptoms of ich.
I'm sorry to hear about the pb. I'm sure it's frustrating. Don't give up; it's possible to keep these beauties! I would, at the very least, QT in either copper or hyposalinity for minimum of 4-6 weeks, and after transfer make sure to provide a tank with plenty of swimming space and moderate current. I also like to feed New Life Spectrum Thera A+ pellets which seem to help ward off ich. Also, soak the food in stabilized Vitamin C and selcon or zoecon. Once fish develops tolerance/immunity, you're in good shape.
Good luck to you!
p.s. science :thumbsup:
maddhugan
New member
read the article
read the article
I think I have read this article a while ago and I read it today as well because you sent it. Didn't feel like I learnt anything new that I didn't know already. Are you talking about the tomonts that can survive for 4 to 5 months at 53 F? Yeah if the temp goes that low it could become dormant and I don't think any of us keep our aquarium at 53 F, Unless it is some sort of coldwater tank. Usually, that doesn't apply to the aquarium temperature we have in our tanks. It also clearly states that When the temp returns to 80 F tomonts come out of dormant stage and infect fish. we don't let the temp go to 53F in aquarium so no need to worry about the tomonts going to dormancy. I think the 72 days to 3 months quarantine/leaving the display fallow is sufficient enough for the temperature we keep in our aquaria. what is it that you think this article has that we hobbyist didn't know off? some sort of exceptional info that I didn't catch?
No need for 6 months quarantine. Do tank transfer at the minimum of 12 days in a 20 gallon tank(minimum four transfers and I would do 6 transfer in 18 days), and then after the completion of the tank transfer method move the fish to a beneficial bacteria established larger quarantine tank and leave it there for couple of months. You are all set.
read the article
I think I have read this article a while ago and I read it today as well because you sent it. Didn't feel like I learnt anything new that I didn't know already. Are you talking about the tomonts that can survive for 4 to 5 months at 53 F? Yeah if the temp goes that low it could become dormant and I don't think any of us keep our aquarium at 53 F, Unless it is some sort of coldwater tank. Usually, that doesn't apply to the aquarium temperature we have in our tanks. It also clearly states that When the temp returns to 80 F tomonts come out of dormant stage and infect fish. we don't let the temp go to 53F in aquarium so no need to worry about the tomonts going to dormancy. I think the 72 days to 3 months quarantine/leaving the display fallow is sufficient enough for the temperature we keep in our aquaria. what is it that you think this article has that we hobbyist didn't know off? some sort of exceptional info that I didn't catch?
No need for 6 months quarantine. Do tank transfer at the minimum of 12 days in a 20 gallon tank(minimum four transfers and I would do 6 transfer in 18 days), and then after the completion of the tank transfer method move the fish to a beneficial bacteria established larger quarantine tank and leave it there for couple of months. You are all set.
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maddhugan
New member
May be he said fate
May be he said fate
Well, Tank transfer method essentially eliminates trophonts from the fish. Every 3 days we keep moving the fish from one tank to another for total of 4 transfer minimum and 12 days minimum. If you want to play it safe then you can do 6 or even more transfers ................ I think it is an awesome method to get rid of Ich.
May be he said fate
Well, Tank transfer method essentially eliminates trophonts from the fish. Every 3 days we keep moving the fish from one tank to another for total of 4 transfer minimum and 12 days minimum. If you want to play it safe then you can do 6 or even more transfers ................ I think it is an awesome method to get rid of Ich.
maddhugan
New member
Not sure whether I truely have ich, it might be something else
Not sure whether I truely have ich, it might be something else
Not sure whether I truely have ich, it might be something else
maddhugan
New member
it doesn't have to be the fate for hobbyist
it doesn't have to be the fate for hobbyist
In a fish shop, hundreds of fish may come in and go out each day, and they have no control over ich coming in and going out, and I agree that for them it is a fate/curse. Ich will get into their systems easily, and they may feel it is inevitable and it is true.
For us hobbyists, we don't have that much fish come in and go out of tank each day, so we definitely have so much control over ich. It is possible to have a ich free tank. That's all I'm saying. It is not a fate if you are careful enough. With a few number of tries we can achieve it and it is well worth it. Having fish that are immune to ich and having a strain of that ich itself in the tank is very dangerous. Let's say your water quality temporarily goes down (you went on a short vacation), then the same fish's immune will go down and the ich will rip your fish into pieces like there is no tomorrow and (few may survive--the carriers) all of your fish will be wiped out. And again you will buy more fish thinking ich is ok in your tank, and it is inevitable and this cycle will continue.
Do the tank transfer method for 12 days min, and your fish will be free of ich, finally put them in a larger quarantine tank that has its biological filter established and watch it for three weeks before introducing to display.
quarantine corals invertibrates from 72 days to 3 months so that all cysts hatch out and go away, and then introduce that in to display
This is all it takes for a ich free tank
it doesn't have to be the fate for hobbyist
In a fish shop, hundreds of fish may come in and go out each day, and they have no control over ich coming in and going out, and I agree that for them it is a fate/curse. Ich will get into their systems easily, and they may feel it is inevitable and it is true.
For us hobbyists, we don't have that much fish come in and go out of tank each day, so we definitely have so much control over ich. It is possible to have a ich free tank. That's all I'm saying. It is not a fate if you are careful enough. With a few number of tries we can achieve it and it is well worth it. Having fish that are immune to ich and having a strain of that ich itself in the tank is very dangerous. Let's say your water quality temporarily goes down (you went on a short vacation), then the same fish's immune will go down and the ich will rip your fish into pieces like there is no tomorrow and (few may survive--the carriers) all of your fish will be wiped out. And again you will buy more fish thinking ich is ok in your tank, and it is inevitable and this cycle will continue.
Do the tank transfer method for 12 days min, and your fish will be free of ich, finally put them in a larger quarantine tank that has its biological filter established and watch it for three weeks before introducing to display.
quarantine corals invertibrates from 72 days to 3 months so that all cysts hatch out and go away, and then introduce that in to display
This is all it takes for a ich free tank
Robert4025
Member
I think what's everyone is trying to tell you is that you talk of this issue primarily from theoretical perspective and that you're not factoring enough of the human factor into this. We all know theoretically, ich-free tank is possible through the understanding of the ich life cycle, as you have stated.
However, not all theories or best practices can be validated as easily as you make it out to be.
From my perspective, you are trivializing how difficult your method can be because you think you have full control over nature. New hobbyist that comes in with this kind of mentality usually end up doing more harm to the animal because they refuse to accept the humility of failure and this is not how you want to start the hobby.
In any case, good luck with your method! I am sure with enough persistence, you can do it. I hope I am proven wrong soon enough.
Happy Reefing
maddhugan
New member
what some are saying is
what some are saying is
well first of all it's not "everyone," well what some are saying is," if you have ich then feed the fish well" and "hide the ich with fish's immunity?" and live with it. Let's just say it as it is. Very miss-guiding in my opinion. OK , so mother nature is so so powerful, why even quarantine the fish right? just throw the fish in display tank and start feeding it well? nature is so powerful that either way the fish is going to get ich right? I'm not just stating theories but a possible thing to do here. Well if fish gets ich then saying "just feed your fish," is not a good advice. I do have humility and know how powerful nature is and it is not about that. Just some are hell bent on the wrong idea that if the fish gets ich then just feed the fish and just live with it which I don't think I can bring myself to agree with. sorry.
what some are saying is
well first of all it's not "everyone," well what some are saying is," if you have ich then feed the fish well" and "hide the ich with fish's immunity?" and live with it. Let's just say it as it is. Very miss-guiding in my opinion. OK , so mother nature is so so powerful, why even quarantine the fish right? just throw the fish in display tank and start feeding it well? nature is so powerful that either way the fish is going to get ich right? I'm not just stating theories but a possible thing to do here. Well if fish gets ich then saying "just feed your fish," is not a good advice. I do have humility and know how powerful nature is and it is not about that. Just some are hell bent on the wrong idea that if the fish gets ich then just feed the fish and just live with it which I don't think I can bring myself to agree with. sorry.
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Robert4025
Member
Who said anything about right or wrong? They were just ideas and advices. If anything, it's you who says everyone idea is wrong. So, why is it wrong? Is it just because you don't accept it that it's wrong? Arn't you then being a little judgmental about other people's idea by saying letting fish live with Ich is wrong?
maddhugan
New member
not wrong but
not wrong but
I don't think it is wrong to have ich in the tank but just dangerous. Also just asking to feed the iched fish is not a good advice, that's all I'm saying. If one decides to keep and sustain ich in his or her own tank then it is his personal preference but giving that as an advice to others seems like not a good thing to do.......
not wrong but
I don't think it is wrong to have ich in the tank but just dangerous. Also just asking to feed the iched fish is not a good advice, that's all I'm saying. If one decides to keep and sustain ich in his or her own tank then it is his personal preference but giving that as an advice to others seems like not a good thing to do.......
maddhugan
New member
I accepted my failure and will retry and succeed at somepoint
I accepted my failure and will retry and succeed at somepoint
well your above wordings are not only judgemental but has a condescending tone to it. right? You just judge me to be a brand new hobbyist, and you go on to say I lack humility, and this is not how you should start your hobby etc..... and other unnecessary things right? Let's just keep the conversation objective. How I should start my hobby and what I do with it........let's just leave that to me.
I accepted my failure and will retry and succeed at somepoint
well your above wordings are not only judgemental but has a condescending tone to it. right? You just judge me to be a brand new hobbyist, and you go on to say I lack humility, and this is not how you should start your hobby etc..... and other unnecessary things right? Let's just keep the conversation objective. How I should start my hobby and what I do with it........let's just leave that to me.
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Robert4025
Member
You got it. Good luck, dude.
