Snorkel Sump Idea

[natebatey]

When I first started in the reef hobby (8 yrs ago) I was very scared of sumps because of the possibility of overflowing all over the floor whether by error or equipment malfunction. So for the first few years I did not use a sump at all. Later on I figured out all of the details and was able to feel confident that my current "standard" sump system is reasonably safe from that possibility.

All along though I've had this Idea that I just can't get away from: "There's GOT to be a way to have sumps be sealed." I think about people who are just getting into the hobby and can NOT have even a remote possibility of Water on their floor. But also seasoned experts having just the extra level of confidence that there is no way for this system to overflow.

I've been sort of researching the idea for the last 8 years and I really think the answer could be a "Snorkel" sump. I've included 2 pictures, 1st of normal operation and the 2nd of a fail mode where the return pump or the overflow has failed in some way. In the Snorkel Sump, the entire sump is sealed but the snorkel extends up past the display tank water level and is wide open to the atmosphere.The snorkel therefor eliminates any issues with pressure differentials or fluctuations between the two tanks or a build up of pressure in the sump. In normal operation the Snorkel Sump operates exactly like any other sump, but if something happens all of the water will simply settle out to some level without overflowing. But there are some other potential "issues". I'm interested in getting some feedback on what some of those issues could be. I've already thought of a few of them and think that they are fairly easy to get around.
1) The Inlet and Outlet of the sump would all need to be sealed - answer -> bulkheads.
2) Wires going into the sump for ATO, etc - answer ->again pretty sure some type of bulkheads would work.
3) Filter Socks - answer -> inline filter cartridges, other?
4) General access to the sump for macro algae export, pump replacement, etc. - answer -> some type of easy access "port-hole".
5) Protein Skimmer - answer -> I don't really have an answer for this one but feel that there could be some solution like a remote skimmer?

Also I am aware that even though the snorkel solves part of the Pressure issue, there is still a "weight of the water at X height" issue. This part is maybe tricky - and I'm not an engineer but from what I've read I think this could be resolved with a "moderate" increase in the thickness of the plexiglass. A 4-5 foot high top of your display tank water level would be roughly 8 to 10 psi of "pressure" in the sump which is certainly not trivial but also I think not outrageous to manufacture to. Any Engineers out there who could verify that and translate it to some real numbers for thickness? Ultimately this equation could be turned into a "calculator" where you plug in the dimensions and it gives you a target thickness.

Go ahead and shoot holes in the idea guys you won't hurt my feelings any. But I still think - "There's GOT to be a way!"

 

[Puffyluv]

My question would be is there a need for this? Most hobbyists will just plumb their sump so a pump failure won't cause it to overflow...running their sump low enough it can take the extra water from the top. For the extra cost (although it is neat) I can't imagine many would go this route? I always felt that HOB equipment causes the most floods! :/ I love it when people are creative in this hobby, though...maybe some folks will chime in and say "Oh yeah, this would make me feel way better about sumps!"

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[jayball]

Put simply, there is no need. Make sure that it can handle the drain down from a power outage and you are good.

In addition to the issues cleaning it how would you get wires for heater and pumps in there, waterproof yet easily removed for maintence? The reason I have a sump is for heater, skimmer, and reactor out of sight, only the reactor would still be possible with that configuration.

 

[cswells212]

I third what they say, literally ZERO need for this. Just plumb the sump correctly and nothing will overflow...plenty of videos on youtube on sump design and tweaking water levels just right.

size your baffle heights to run sump about ~50% full, which leaves plenty room for drainage from the pipes when the return pump shuts off.

 

[Stolireef]

Setting up a sump to handle tank overflow is one of the first things every newbie should be taught. A sump should be able to handle the complete amount of overflow when the return shuts off plus a significant amount of room for error. Equally important, every newbie should be taught how to avoid a siphon from their return line.

And, as the resident idiot plumber, I can say that I learned both of these lessons the hard way. Once, on brand new hardwood floors (wife was not pleased).

 

[mcgyvr]

And, as the resident idiot plumber, I can say that I learned both of these lessons the hard way. Once, on brand new hardwood floors (wife was not pleased).

So you have a "scuba sump" now right? :0

 

[Stolireef]

So you have a "scuba sump" now right? :0

Nah. Just a mop, bucket, and standing order for flowers every time I mess up.

 

[mcgyvr]

standing order for flowers every time I mess up.

:thumbsup:

Oh yeah and sorry to the OP.. "Snorkel Sump" not "Scuba Sump"..

 

[Ron Reefman]

natebatey, I think you are over thinking the problem. However, I didn't want water on the floor from an overflowing or broken sump either. My solution was to build a 'tray' that sits inside the stand and then the sump and other external water elements (remote skimmer collection cup, reactors, etc) all sit in the tray. The tray can catch spills, splashes, leaks and overflows. In my situation I'm close enough to the outside that I installed a bulkhead in the tray and ran it out of the house. You can see photos of the build in my build thread (link address in my signature).

Your solution creates as many or more 'issues' as it solves:
1) The Inlet and Outlet of the sump would all need to be sealed - answer -> bulkheads.
2) Wires going into the sump for ATO, etc - answer ->again pretty sure some type of bulkheads would work.
3) Filter Socks - answer -> inline filter cartridges, other?
4) General access to the sump for macro algae export, pump replacement, etc. - answer -> some type of easy access "port-hole".
5) Protein Skimmer - answer -> I don't really have an answer for this one but feel that there could be some solution like a remote skimmer?

It just seems resolving all these issues is more involved than it needs to be. Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[natebatey]

Hey Ron Reefman, I think you got it right for sure! The tray is a much better and more elegant solution.

Some of the other replies were funny examples of what I was driving at..."It's easy if you do it right... it's no problem...but I've overflowed 6 times."

Also FYI the 50% full sump is not really a very satisfying solution, it means you have to buy a 2x bigger sump than what you really need, and half of the $$$ you spent is just wasted space?

Anyway, Thanks all for the replies! That's the sort of stuff I was looking for. Ron Reefman gets the prize.

 

[Ron Reefman]

natebatey, thanks for the prize and I'm happy to help. Once you get to 10 posts here I think you can start doing PM's (Private Messages) and feel free to contact me.

BTW, my old system had a 180g sump 8'x2'x18" (really 8' long) and I had it mostly 16" deep with water except the section where the return pump was. And overflowing the sump isn't the only issue that can cause flooding. My 180g tank developed a 30gph leak right in the middle of the back glass where the back glass meets the bottom glass, up against the wall where I couldn't do anything about it. Lucky for me, I have tile floors (hey, it's Florida). I saved everything in the tank, but I had 6 hours to do it (180g tank, 30gph leak= 6 hours). I did some drywall damage and destroyed cabinets (30 years old) in the bathroom behind the tank. BTW, my new cabinets all sit on adjustable aluminum legs that are 4" to 6" tall. Wood cabinets are protected from shallow foods like a tank blow out and I can clean under them if I remove the toe plate!

 

[tkeracer619]

Also FYI the 50% full sump is not really a very satisfying solution, it means you have to buy a 2x bigger sump than what you really need, and half of the $$$ you spent is just wasted space?

No, you spent money on the correct sump because a sump is supposed to have enough room by design to handle an out of power/dead pump situation. It isn't wasted space, it is correctly sized. The sump for my 600gal has 10" of water in a 24" tall sump. It has to hold the water from a 80" tall x 10" wide skimmer and 50 gallons of overflow, tank, and plumbing drain back. Sump has about 125gal capacity. Total backflow is estimated at 77gal.

Do you fill a swimming pool up so it overflows when someone gets in it? No.

They make canister filters for people who want a sealed filtration system.


I think the people who are saying they put water on the floor did so because they learned the hard way.

 

[cswells212]

Hey Ron Reefman, I think you got it right for sure! The tray is a much better and more elegant solution.

Some of the other replies were funny examples of what I was driving at..."It's easy if you do it right... it's no problem...but I've overflowed 6 times."

Also FYI the 50% full sump is not really a very satisfying solution, it means you have to buy a 2x bigger sump than what you really need, and half of the $$$ you spent is just wasted space?

Anyway, Thanks all for the replies! That's the sort of stuff I was looking for. Ron Reefman gets the prize.

A sump is 50%ish space BY DESIGN so you aren't wasting/paying extra $ anything since that's necessary to it's function...you are looking at it the wrong way.

Also please tell me where I said mine has overflowed? I'll wait..bc neither of my setups have ever overflowed, nor will they...due to the fact I spent time to research how to properly size my baffle height/measure sump size and water depth/proper plumbing/and accounting for the water that will drain back into the sump in the design stage, well before I built anything. in fact it is impossible for them to overflow unless I add too much water above my measured high water mark lines on purpose (which would be absolutely stupid to do and never happen).


this isn't rocket science and the kiss method always applies. do your homework and build accordingly. If that doesn't satisfy you then you're free to get a canister filter like tkeracer619 said.

 

[Puffyluv]

Well, maybe 1/4 of it is wasted space by doing the gravity method...but as far as wasted money...wouldn't this idea waste a lot more money? I can't imagine it being cheaper than a regular tank you baffle yourself...or even the premade sumps already on the market...

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[Ron Reefman]

I'm not completely happy with the sump that came with my system. So I'm considering building my own out of glass. I've made 5 aquariums (the biggest is a 65g shallow reef tank) and they have all been fine after 4 or 5 years. My local glass supply house cuts glass precisely to my measurements and I do the assembly. Then I'll have the sump I want without the wasted space in the one that came with the tank and stand.

 

[bobafet1]

there's an extremely simple solution to this. Drill a small hole on the whatever you use for your return line, just an inch or so below the water line, so that when the pump shuts off air is sucked in and breaks the siphon. I do this on all my tanks. I realize this is an old thread but figured I'd still chime in.

 

[ReefDoberman]

If you buy the right size sump then this issue literally does not exist. When you set up a system, you should run a test. Cut power and monitor the back flow. If it exceeds sump capacity then you either need to reduce the maximum running water line, get a bigger sump or you need to alter your return plumbing to stop the back syphon sooner.