So do we want nutrients or not?

[Paul B]

is this for real ? never heard of it lol

If you don't know what that is (and I am sure I spelled it wrong) you are to young

Well, not all of us PhDs are "Pin Headed Dopes", some of us actually have electrician's licenses.

And some electricians have pHd's
Actually, all New York Union electricians have a college degree. :dance:
Many of them are also Pin Headed Dopes. :lolspin:

 

[Allmost]

Well, not all of us PhDs are "Pin Headed Dopes", some of us actually have electrician's licenses.

should do more with the PhD than become an electrician :lmao:

[pointing to Bora Bora research crew thing lol ]

 

[Paul B]

should do more with the PhD than become an electrician

To become a journeyman electrician may take more schooling than a Phd.
I have 11 years of electrical schooling plus a 7 year apprentisship and 35 years of courses in between as we had to keep up with new technology. I could have gone to college to become an electrical engineer but then I would have to work twice the hours to make half the money and have no pension or benefits. Higher learning is not for everyone, but I realize it is for most jobs, for most people.
As I said, I want a person with a bunch of doctorates operating on my rather than an electrician. Even if he does not know what corals eat, as I don't.
But I am envious of people with pHd's because I can't get into these technical discussions as I am to stupid and my large word library is limited.
If a marine biologist with a pHd makes a mistake, a porpose may die, but if an electrician wiring the New York Subway system makes a mistake, it may take you longer to get to work or that train and everyone on it could be history. :sad2:

 

[reefer91]

dkeller_nc has hit many, many points for me, especially with regards to genuine logic/scientific thinking. It is obvious that you state the facts, the mental process, and nothing more... an obvious man of science haha. Some posters on this thread have clearly not understood. Perhaps they have lost sight of the forest for the trees. It is nearly impossible to discuss the meat and potatoes of a topic if you can't get past the flaws in the line of thinking... Regardless, thanks for the read.


I didn't know there were some many others here with Permanent Head Damage

 

[dkeller_nc]

But I am envious of people with pHd's because I can't get into these technical discussions as I am to stupid and my large word library is limited.

This is worth addressing. There are a lot my colleagues that make the severe mistake of thinking that people with less education are in all respects less capable in the intellectual sense. That's demonstrably false - Einstein did not have a physics PhD. Nikolai Tesla didn't either, and neither did Henry Ford. But I doubt anyone would question their intellectual prowess.

 

[Allmost]

all I said was : " what I have quoted arent my words, but from scientific papers"

I never questioned anyones intelligence ...

just to be clear

 

[animalkingdom]

I know they are, but do they have fish tanks? phD means they sat in a classroom for a few years. I have a cousin with a phD in Marine Biology. He is a professor of marine biology and for that title he had to SCUBA dive once about 35 years ago. He looks in my reef tank and has no idea what he is looking at and he has never kept even a goldfish. But he has a phD, would you take advice from him?
I know quite a few people with Phds and some of them can't get out of their own way, none of them could change a flat tire. These are not stupid people but IMO very narrow minded as all that classroom removed much of their common sense unless it is exactly what they were taught in that particular field.
After saying that, I realize we need to listen to someone about something and all we have is scientists, but for 2,000 years the scientists in the church taught the sun was the center of the universe.
Don't get me wrong, the links posted and the scientests that were linked may be 100% correct, but they may also be 100% wrong.
Years ago there were two scientists that wrote many books on freshwater fish, then when saltwater fish came out in the early 70s they wrote books on salt water. At that time I disagreed with much of what they wrote and today I still do. Experience is much more important in this and every endeavor.
When I served in the Army in Viet Nam there were First Luitenants that had just come out of West Point. Very smart guys, but when you wanted to stay alive you took orders from the old, "stupider" Sargeants who had been in combat many times and not the smart officers. :uhoh3:
OK. continue with your fascinating conversation, I won't bother you any more. :fun2:

References:
Certainly no one with a PHd :facepalm:

Not to get off topic as I see we already are, but I just wanted to clear up a few things on Science PhDs (other field differ dramatically). First off we did not sit in a class room and get knowledge, we played around in a lab for 5 to 8 years and learned through the school of hard knocks and extensive reading and failed experiments. I can say for fact that less than 5% of your graduate school career is spent at a desk learning and the rest is at the lab through late nights and early morning of dedicated hard work. In todays funding crisis in science we also dont get there very easily unless we are MacGyver and can fix darn near anything. To say scientist are narrow minded is not correct. People know me for my ability to fix practically anything they put in front of me even when that thing is less than fixable. And FYI its not what a PhD is taught, but what they learn. What they learn comes from exploration of the unkown rather than what is handed down to them from the previosly known.
Just for reference here is my classroom:

 

[Arkayology]

:deadhorse1:

 

[Paul B]

In todays funding crisis in science we also dont get there very easily unless we are MacGyver and can fix darn near anything.

Actually I can and through most of my career people called me MacGyver.
I am almost 65 and so far have never hired anyone to fix anything on my house, car or boat. But I do hire dentists, I would do it myself but it is hard to concentrate with all my screaming. :lmao:
I also learned through the school of hard knox. As an apprentice I worked to help build the World Trade Center and put much of the lightning rods around the parapet 106 floors over the street. In the 7 years I was an apprentice, if I made a mistake, It was very easy for me to die as many construction electricians do.
I routinely worked on 277 and 480 volt systems live. (we are not allowed to do that anymore due to to many deaths) I installed the fire alarm system in the entire Empire State Building and loved to eat my lunch on the antenna. That building was built before air conditioning so there is an 86 floor shaft in the center of the building for ventilation. I hung through the entire building in that shaft on a bolsons chair to install the conduit.
This was all after serving a year in the jungle in Viet Nam.
As I said, I do admire intelligence and some people I know amaze me with their knowledge as I am sure you are very intelligent. I Mean no disrespect to anyone with a degree as I have none. So I made a mistake by saying people with Phds are narrow minded. I should have said something nicer but remember I have a limited vocabulary and scrwew up occasionally. :headwally: All I have is a pole climbing diploma (yes, very helpful) an electrical certification (also not real impressive, but it paid the bills) Captains License ( it's fun) SCUBA certification (like most people on here) Leadership diploma (Only for the Army, useless) Tank License (military, not fish)
Again useless, Asbestos license (I will probably die before I finish this post)
Electronics certification (sounds good, but it was only for the military, so, yes, useless) High voltage certification I can put batteries in a flashlight)
And I was an A certified mechanic for General Motors so I can fix my car.:fun5:
But I was paid well for what I did. You may not want me operating on you. :hmm2:
My main concern when I picked a career was what time will I get home. Electricians work 7 hours a day and we started at 7 AM with a half hour lunch so I was home by 3 pm with enough time to work on my hobbies. :mixed:
If shoe makers got home at 2 pm, I would have picked shoe maker. :thumbsup:
This is my smaller workshop in my house, I have 2 patents.
Animalkingdom. I do respect you for all your training and I mean no disrespect. Nice lab you have there. I could build a space shuttle in there, a small one, but it would be very cool

 

[animalkingdom]

I love your workshop Paul! And good choice of careers where you get home at reasonable times. If I run out of grants I'll have to look into being an electrician I'm just not fond of the long time shadowing a Journeyman before I get my stripes as I feel like I have already paid my dues

 

[Paul B]

It was great, a first year apprentice took home $52.00 a week. My new wife just loved that paycheck :worried:

She always told me to become a doctor, but I kept telling her I had no patience :worried:

I know what you mean by shadowing. I was Sargeant in Nam with some authority over all with a lower rank, then I came home to be a lowly apprentice with no pull with anyone, I was lower then snail poop on the totem pole.

 

[russeko8]

My tank likes a little and does not like the water stripped. Things tend to lighten excessively at that point and I like healthy not pale corals. Just my personal observation

 

[Volcano1]

I'm just happy i can zap the lil sob anenomes I don't want. Sounds like knowledge was put to work.

 

[Lambert58]

You know, this thread was like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You want to turn away, but you... Just........can't!

 

[MammothReefer]

Oh yeah.. well this is what my lab looks like

Anyways just feed as much as you can optimally export. There is no reason to chase elevated N/P levels. Anything below the recommended dosage to 0 on hobby grade test kits 99% of the time will be fine. For the heavy carbon dosers there is 0 and then there is 0.000000000000000000000000000 you can tell from looking at the corals when you need to feed more.

 

[djkms]

Anyways just feed as much as you can optimally export.

This is a interesting statement because with carbon dosing and GFO the amount we can feed can become exorbitant. Want to feed more, increase your carbon source and GFO. At what point though is too much, reglardless of NO3/PO4 readings?

IMO rarely, if ever, do we take into account that with excessive feeding we are also increasing the DOM, POM or DOC content of the water and we know little how this effects livestock. I asked this question here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2267759
with very little response.

I think that with increased feeding, even though our NO3 & PO4 are 0, we can still negatively effect water quality. I may be wrong but the more I feed the more cyano and nuisance algae I get regardless of NO3/PO4 readings.

 

[sirreal63]

I understand your point Kris, and I agree that the potential for issues is there. I feed heavy but I also do somewhat large water changes, employ a small ozone dose and keep the skimmer clean. There is a point where the import can exceed the export and that is where problems may occur. As with virtually everything, finding the balance is key and the levels of import and export will vary greatly tank by tank.

 

[MammothReefer]

This is a interesting statement because with carbon dosing and GFO the amount we can feed can become exorbitant. Want to feed more, increase your carbon source and GFO. At what point though is too much, reglardless of NO3/PO4 readings?

IMO rarely, if ever, do we take into account that with excessive feeding we are also increasing the DOM, POM or DOC content of the water and we know little how this effects livestock. I asked this question here:
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2267759
with very little response.

I think that with increased feeding, even though our NO3 & PO4 are 0, we can still negatively effect water quality. I may be wrong but the more I feed the more cyano and nuisance algae I get regardless of NO3/PO4 readings.

That's why I said optimally you don't want to be running massive amounts of gfo or dosing massive amounts of carbon to offset massive amounts of food. That really isn't "optimal" that's where you start walking a fine line where the tank can fail with the smallest misstep. You always want to go middle of the road with your tank imop so you have safety nets on both side if you make any mistakes.

 

[tmz]

I think increased feeding also adds extra organics which can't be measured by most of us given the limits of hobby grade equipment and are often ignored . Too much can s be harmful n terms of TOC. Skimming, gac ,detritus removal and even mechanical fitration like socks and such become more important in heavily fed tanks even when PO4 and NO3 are low.

On the flip side animals need to eat and frozen foods add to the planktonic mix in the water.


There is limit to carbon dosing in terms of NO3 and PO4 reduction which becomes very evident in bacterial stands throughout the system when it's ovedosed. So, while organic carbon dosing enables higher feeding levels with low PO4 and NO3, one really can't just keep upping the import /export ante.

I feed a about 50 fish in my system heavily about 2 ounces of frozen food per day with some nori and flakes and manage NO3 and PO4 via dosing vodka and vinegar at moderte levels. This has wroked very well for corals in the sps dominant sytem too. Cyano is absent as is almost all nuisance algae.

I think though that there is a limit on food imports whether dosing organic C or not and that balance will vary for each aquarium.

 

[Rwpdunne]

I think increased feeding also adds extra organics which can't be measured by most of us given the limits of hobby grade equipment and are often ignored . Too much can s be harmful n terms of TOC. Skimming, gac ,detritus removal and even mechanical fitration like socks and such become more important in heavily fed tanks even when PO4 and NO3 are low.

On the flip side animals need to eat and frozen foods add to the planktonic mix in the water.


There is limit to carbon dosing in terms of NO3 and PO4 reduction which becomes very evident in bacterial stands throughout the system when it's ovedosed. So, while organic carbon dosing enables higher feeding levels with low PO4 and NO3, one really can't just keep upping the import /export ante.

I feed a about 50 fish in my system heavily about 2 ounces of frozen food per day with some nori and flakes and manage NO3 and PO4 via dosing vodka and vinegar at moderte levels. This has wroked very well for corals in the sps dominant sytem too. Cyano is absent as is almost all nuisance algae.

I think though that there is a limit on food imports whether dosing organic C or not and that balance will vary for each aquarium.

Any pictures of your SPS corals?