So do we want nutrients or not?

[Allmost]

Stop it Al. I know what I think. No need for you to tell me or paraphrase my statements; everyone can read them as a I wrote them.

I have always kept some Nitrate and PO4 in the water column even years ago when most everyone shot for double zeros. Even when it's undetecable on some test kits N is likely there with a large biolaod and heavy feeding but I have observed in my tanks that color and growth are better with a tinge of NO3 and a little Pi in the water.

The bacteria take up the dissolved inorganic nutrients out of the water column continuously; other elements too. They can be limited by less organic carbon
Many of them and the elements in them are exported by the skimmer;some are consumed by organisms in the tank or decay there.
.That's not hard to understand.
Leaving some DIN and Pi in small amounts in the water by controlling the amount of orgnic carbon dosed and managing other imports(food, DIN, P.major, minor and trace elements ) is what I try to accomplish.
Others have a different approach involving stripping teh wa ter column and compensating with supplements for better or worse.

Edit ....

carbon dosing is the same thing, doesnt matter if you dose vodka, or waste alot of money and dose Zeostart3 [Zeovit] they do the same thing.

you mention that you dose foods, trace and major elements and .... , when one uses Zeovit, they do the exact same thing.

only difference, is that at the end of the day I am broke from all the bottels lol

 

[Allmost]

Stop it Al. I know what I think. No need for you to tell me or paraphrase my statements; everyone can read them as a I wrote them.

I have always kept some Nitrate and PO4 in the water column even years ago when most everyone shot for double zeros. Even when it's undetecable on some test kits N is likely there with a large biolaod and heavy feeding but I have observed in my tanks that color and growth are better with a tinge of NO3 and a little Pi in the water.

The bacteria take up the dissolved inorganic nutrients out of the water column continuously; other elements too. They can be limited by less organic carbon
Many of them and the elements in them are exported by the skimmer;some are consumed by organisms in the tank or decay there.
.That's not hard to understand.
Leaving some DIN and Pi in small amounts in the water by controlling the amount of orgnic carbon dosed and managing other imports(food, DIN, P.major, minor and trace elements ) is what I try to accomplish.
Others have a different approach involving stripping teh wa ter column and compensating with supplements for better or worse.

Edit ...

 

[CHSUB]

I"˜ve read this thread several times and I can't figure out what you fellas are discussing? Maybe, do corals consume bacteria? Of course they do and anything else that floats by"¦.. back to the original OP's question about nutrients. Imo, no we don't. keep them as low as possible, preferable undetectable, fill your tank with fish and get them fat. The idea of dialing in some level of no3 and po4 is ridiculous. coral don't consume no3 and po4 their (endosymbiotic dinoflagellates) zooxanthellae do. Thinking that the rise of no3 from clear to a little pink on your Salfert tester was the reason your sps' colored-up is preposterous. more likely is that the corals colored-up because of increased feeding, and one of the results was higher no3"¦

 

[tmz]

Preposterous, really. That's keeping up with the negative argumentative tone in this thread.
Study up a little before making those kind of broad unhelpful inaccurate statements;you'll find lots of discussion about balancing nutrients and how corals feed and grow out there if you choose . This article is a good start:

http://www.coralscience.org/main/articles/nutrition-6/how-corals-feed





This is from it:

Figure 5: Nitrogen budget for Stylophora pistillata colonies in their natural environment. It is clear that ammonia and nitrate provide the bulk of the nitrogen, and that organic nitrogen in the form of amino acids provides 21%. The balance between dissolved molecules and particles such as plankton however depends on what is available to the coral (Renaud Grover et al, Journal of Experimental biology 2008).




Nitrogen deficiencies are common with carbon dosing as the process is skewed toward disproportionate nitrogen depletion. What do you think corals use for peptides, essential amino acid synthesis and proteins and building blocks for tissue and pigments. Of course they use nitrogen (phosphorous too) whether they get it from food intake, absorbtion of dissolved molecules aor the nitrogen they receive from from zooxanthelae which gets it from the water. . What organism doesn't need C,N and P?
Undetectable DIN and Pi is not my preference and not recommended by most. Nor is it so in the natural environment where in surface waters NO3 runs around 0.2ppm and PO4 around .01ppm with variability and higher levels in deepr and more turbid waters.
Increased feeding is useful sometimes but it adds organic carbon and phosphate as well as nitrogen so it won't help correct an imbalance from low nitrogen.. Corals absorb nutrients and don't just get the m from food. Personally, I've used some sodium nitrate but I'm now trying aspartic acid an essential ammino acid to raise nitrogen levels.

For my part I think there are many different approaches to keeping a reef tank. More are evolving . I respect the efforts of serious knowledgeable and experienced aquarists and try to learn from their techniques and experiences even when I don't fully agree with them. Offering broad generalizations and trashing others opinions and observations as preposterous and ridiculous , especially when operating from an obviously limited knowledge base is just rude and ignorant.

 

[tmz]

AL
To be clear I have nothing against a zeovit system. I just don't prefer it and don't prefer going for undetectable nutrients. I like to know what
I'm putting in the tank so I don't rely on proprietary secret formulas when I cn avoid it.Though, with the large fish load and heavy feeding I do there are porably some in the water all the time anyway. I also have good deal of zooxplankton in the water since I don't use socks or other filters of that type. Tweaking nitrogen levels is something I started about a month and half ago. It has deepened some colors as I see them and has puffed up some lps a bit.

 

[CHSUB]

" Preposterous, really. That's keeping up with the negative argumentative tone in this thread"


nice to see you are above the negative argumentative tone and take the "higher" ground so few take in these type of threads. i give you praise sir.


Offering broad generalizations and trashing others opinions and observations as preposterous and ridiculous , especially when operating from an obviously limited knowledge base is just rude and ignorant.


oh well, it was a good start.

Nor is it so in the natural environment where in surface waters NO3 runs around 0.2ppm and PO4 around .01ppm with variability and higher levels in deepr and more turbid waters.


i have tested water all around the keys and the Caribbean and never once has a Salfert tester registered any pink. point being with 40 fish and heavily fed i doubt you have any no3 deficiency.

I remember you posting comments about how ridiculous no3 and po4 balancing was, specifically the Red Field Ratio. Now just the opposite?
Anyhow, GL and great reefing your friend
c.

how’s that for changing the tone, better?

 

[ReefKeeper64]

following along.

 

[tmz]

Thankyou ,that tone is much more salubrious.

I'm not above a little fight but attacks and counterattacks often ruin threads and offend other readers but I have limits. This thread has some nice tidbits of information buried in the noise from many of the posters and I was hoping to improve the overall tone to facilitate more insights.

I've participated in several threads where some poor extrapolations about the Redfield ratio were made and argued from an opposing position.
I'm still uncertain about adding nitrogen to balance nutrients but there is at least a plausible reason for it and several anecdotal reports of success citing enhanced PO4 reduction and overall coral health.
The natural seawater numbers cited in my post are from a well noted source, Mllero's Occeanography per Randy Farely's atricles .

I may not have a nitrogen deficiency occurring in my system but with long term organic carbon dosing and tanks packed with corals using itit's possible even with heavy feeding. I'll continue the tiny amount of dosing for the time being,monitor and observe.
The whole nutreint balancing piece is relatively new to salt water here . I think it's worth a closer look.

This thread of mine goes into it a bit more:


http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2303916&highlight=nitrogen

This is from it:

It's certainly seems counter intuitive to dose nitrate or another nitrogen source but it may make sense.

The Redfeild ratio is rather useless as a guide other than to offer perspective on the general en masse proportions of carbon(C)106:N) 16: 1 P in ocean plankton. Organisms may approximate those levels but some including some bacteria vary significantly . Even if food put in the tank is close to those proportions, the activity in the tank may not use them in those proportions. All in all, trying to use the Redfield ratio to obtain a generalized optimal N to P ratio seems convoluted. Using tank levels of N and P vs natural seawater levels seems smarter and more direct.

To clarify the idea as to why dosing N might be useful, a brief look at the three major nutrients coming in and going out of the bio available mix in the tank is helpful

Organic carbon coming in for the most part with foods can be used for energy or sunk in refractory( non bio available) organics like humic and fulvic substances ;some may also be contributed by photosynthesis. So, the amount coming into the tank is not really the bio available amount in the tank.
In many tanks it seems there is a shortfall of C as N and P levels climb. If there was enough organic C, the bacteria would use up the N and P too and tank levels would approximate nsw levels ( PO4 ca .005ppm and NO3ca. 0.2ppm at the surface) more often than they do. This imbalance is the basis for organic carbon dosing( vinegar, vodka, pellets, sugar, etc)
Unfortunately, hobby level measurement of organic carbon is not possible. Even high level analyses with $ 50 K analyzers don't really tell you what organics are present and whether they are bio available. So, we use NO3 and PO4 as sort of a surrogate measure for nutrients, often ignoring organic carbon.

The proportion of N in and N out varies vis a vie the proportion of P in and P out too. The bacteria , consume C,N and P for food( ie, they assimilate them) and in turn are exported primarily by skimming . Even if we assume these bacteria have a perfect 106C to16Nto1 P biomass and the food into the tank also has these exact proportions,more N will be exported than P.
Anaerobic activity where the bacteria use NO3 for oxygen when free oxygen is used up exports extra N . NO3 is reduced to N as the oxygen is taken ;some of the N which binds to other N forming N2 which bubbles out into the atmosphere. How much of this occurs is variable from tank to tank but it does deplete nitrogen in addition to the nitrogen assimilated by the bacteria as biomass;there is no other such exit for P .
This is why many use gfo or other adsorbents and or precipitants for PO4 along with organic carbon dosing.

Sometimes, N levels at 0 may induce some coral paleness, perhaps from an N deficiency for the zooxanthelae or the coral itself. Some think adding extra N via sodium nitrate or calcium nitrate will remedy that and also help the bacteria to reduce more P. Very plausible positions,imo. Some ,including me prefer to add extra N via aspartic acid and amino acid which also adds some organic carbon.



Herringfish,

I'm not sure it matters a whole lot which source of N you use but as requested this is is my thinking:

Potassium nitrate(KNO3) adds potassium I might not need or want. I would use it if I measured and needed more potassium.

Calcium nitrate(CaNO3) adds calcium which I'd rather add in normal doses balanced with carbonate alkalinity.

Sodium nitrate(NaNO3) adds sodium but I don't care about that as much as the calcium or potassium since there is so much sodium in the water(10,500ppm) any small addition won't affect ion ratios very much at all and will level out with water changes . I've tried it.

Aspartic acid contains nitrogen and organic carbon in the form of an essential acidic ammino acid that living things incuding corals use . I account for the carbon part by reducing the vodka dose to off set the extra carbon. I use L aspartic acid from I herb .com,an online health food vendor ,ca $6 for 250 grams.
It only takes 4 grams 2x per week for 650 gallons to get N where I want it 0.5 to 1ppm . I'm still observing it since I started it just 2 weeks ago. Sps coral color seems to have gotten richer and lps seem fuller but I may just be seeing what I want to see.

I've been dosing vodka and vinegar for organic carbon over 5 years with very good results. in keeping NO3 and PO4 low. Sugar even in small amounts caused coral browning and some recession. There is at least one study linking excess glucose to coral mortality. So, I don't use any sugar anymore.

Since it has virtually no water in it and 80 proof vodka is 60% water I discount the vokda by 2.5 ml for each gram of aspartate I dose. I I would discount 5% acetic acid vinegar by 8ml per gram of acetate dosed.I'm sure a more precise comparison of organic carbon content of each is possible but that's close enough for me . I use the same conversions for any solid organic carbon source, eg, sugar, vitamin C, etc.


I don't know that dosing nitrate in any form is necessary as a standard proceedure. If there is food in a tank or breathing fish some nitrogen( ammonia, nitrite or nitrate) is there. Again nsw levels are around 0.2 for nitrate and .005 pmm for PO4 at the surface. I think it's still experimental and I'm just tweaking things a bit for now. I like to get just a tinge of pink viewed from the side of the salifert NO3 test.

Good luck with your new build

 

[Allmost]

Study up a little before making those kind of broad unhelpful inaccurate statements;

ok I am done, really not what I expected form you Tom.

all I posted above, is from either scientific papers, published by reputable sources, or from books written by Boreman. ...

nice to see you calling my research "broad unhelpful inaccurate statements" ....

what you posted above, does not go against what I have posted. so .... again, didnt expect it from you ...

 

[Arkayology]

I know they are, but do they have fish tanks? phD means they sat in a classroom for a few years. I have a cousin with a phD in Marine Biology. He is a professor of marine biology and for that title he had to SCUBA dive once about 35 years ago. He looks in my reef tank and has no idea what he is looking at and he has never kept even a goldfish. But he has a phD, would you take advice from him?
I know quite a few people with Phds and some of them can't get out of their own way, none of them could change a flat tire. These are not stupid people but IMO very narrow minded as all that classroom removed much of their common sense unless it is exactly what they were taught in that particular field.
After saying that, I realize we need to listen to someone about something and all we have is scientists, but for 2,000 years the scientists in the church taught the sun was the center of the universe.
Don't get me wrong, the links posted and the scientests that were linked may be 100% correct, but they may also be 100% wrong.
Years ago there were two scientists that wrote many books on freshwater fish, then when saltwater fish came out in the early 70s they wrote books on salt water. At that time I disagreed with much of what they wrote and today I still do. Experience is much more important in this and every endeavor.
When I served in the Army in Viet Nam there were First Luitenants that had just come out of West Point. Very smart guys, but when you wanted to stay alive you took orders from the old, "stupider" Sargeants who had been in combat many times and not the smart officers. :uhoh3:
OK. continue with your fascinating conversation, I won't bother you any more. :fun2:

References:
Certainly no one with a PHd :facepalm:

Come on Paul, lets not bash on PhDs... You'll hurt my feelings.

 

[Paul B]

Come on Paul, lets not bash on PhDs... You'll hurt my feelings.

I would never hurt your feelings, I am sure as far as Phd's go, you are one of the smartest. I didn't go to college, (I am actually proud of that) there was this war thing and all. I was only stating a couple of facts and trying to explain that just because someone has a Phd doesn't mean his thoughts are correct just like my thoughts on electricity may not be correct even though I am a master electrician with 40 years experience. I get shocked too. :fun5:

This hobby is like criminal law. One side will bring in experts with decades of experience to say this evidence proves the guy is guilty and the other side will bring in experts saying the guy is innocent because of this. I have sat on quite a few juries and it does remind me of this thread. I usually go by the evidence presented by the best looking expert as there is nothing else to go on. Almost everyone in this hobby is an expert, including me. But they, and me are wrong many times. I am never impressed when scientists are referred to and their word is taken as law. Most of them do not have a salt water tank and never did. Besides that virtually all research is done for a few months or a couple of years, then the money runs out or the researcher moves to Bora Bora with his research assistant (which doesn't make him a bad person) Take ich or hair algae for example. Experts know everything there is to know about the ich life cycle, but if you search for ich, you will see hundreds of posts. Do you know why? Of course you do, the research stopped after they "thought" they knew all about ich. But they do not.
My tank is a perfect example, it does not get ich, not in 35 years, why not? I don't know and neither do experts.
I did say we need scientists and Doctors, I wouldn't want a sanitation expert operating on me (unless of course she was a real Babe)
Knowledge impresses me and there are a lot of very smart people on this forum and on this thread. I don't know if corals eat bacteria or hamburger helper so I did not put in my 2 cents on that because I would probably be wrong. But I do have more experience keeping these animals than most people here so even though I may not know exactly what they are eating. I do know exactly how to keep them healthy. But of course it could all just be an accident.
So I never want to hurt any ones feelings and I never dispute anyone with harsh words because to me, this is a hobby, so it is fun. If I have to come on here after a hard day of being retired and listen to arguments about things that everyone is sure they know better than anyone else, I would rather fertilize my tomato plants.
Have a great day. :wavehand:
References:
Me

 

[sirreal63]

then the money runs out or the researcher moves to Bora Bora with his research assistant

Mental note...only have hot blonde assistants if I ever get a grant to prove what I don't know and pray the money runs out before she figures out what I don't know.

Alternate ending...there may be a few hot research assistants in Bora Bora who are disillusioned. :beachbum:

 

[Paul B]

Trust me, I went to Bora Bora, plenty of Hot research assistants looking for not so hot, rich, researchers with grant money. Phd's not necessary.

 

[Allmost]

Trust me, I went to Bora Bora, plenty of Hot research assistants looking for not so hot, rich, researchers with grant money. Phd's not necessary.

:idea:
We should go there and make flat screen TVs lol

 

[Arkayology]

I would never hurt your feelings, I am sure as far as Phd's go, you are one of the smartest. I didn't go to college, (I am actually proud of that) there was this war thing and all. I was only stating a couple of facts and trying to explain that just because someone has a Phd doesn't mean his thoughts are correct just like my thoughts on electricity may not be correct even though I am a master electrician with 40 years experience. I get shocked too. :fun5:

This hobby is like criminal law. One side will bring in experts with decades of experience to say this evidence proves the guy is guilty and the other side will bring in experts saying the guy is innocent because of this. I have sat on quite a few juries and it does remind me of this thread. I usually go by the evidence presented by the best looking expert as there is nothing else to go on. Almost everyone in this hobby is an expert, including me. But they, and me are wrong many times. I am never impressed when scientists are referred to and their word is taken as law. Most of them do not have a salt water tank and never did. Besides that virtually all research is done for a few months or a couple of years, then the money runs out or the researcher moves to Bora Bora with his research assistant (which doesn't make him a bad person) Take ich or hair algae for example. Experts know everything there is to know about the ich life cycle, but if you search for ich, you will see hundreds of posts. Do you know why? Of course you do, the research stopped after they "thought" they knew all about ich. But they do not.
My tank is a perfect example, it does not get ich, not in 35 years, why not? I don't know and neither do experts.
I did say we need scientists and Doctors, I wouldn't want a sanitation expert operating on me (unless of course she was a real Babe)
Knowledge impresses me and there are a lot of very smart people on this forum and on this thread. I don't know if corals eat bacteria or hamburger helper so I did not put in my 2 cents on that because I would probably be wrong. But I do have more experience keeping these animals than most people here so even though I may not know exactly what they are eating. I do know exactly how to keep them healthy. But of course it could all just be an accident.
So I never want to hurt any ones feelings and I never dispute anyone with harsh words because to me, this is a hobby, so it is fun. If I have to come on here after a hard day of being retired and listen to arguments about things that everyone is sure they know better than anyone else, I would rather fertilize my tomato plants.
Have a great day. :wavehand:
References:
Me

I just joshing ya. Academia had hardened me from criticism. I can change a tire btw

 

[CHSUB]

ok I am done, really not what I expected form you Tom.

all I posted above, is from either scientific papers, published by reputable sources, or from books written by Boreman. ...

nice to see you calling my research "broad unhelpful inaccurate statements" ....

what you posted above, does not go against what I have posted. so .... again, didnt expect it from you ...

i think he was posting to me and don't worry, i can "take it". when i was growing up my next door neighbor, jimmy, who was much older, would pummel me daily. so i can take a little verbal abuse...

 

[tmz]

ok I am done, really not what I expected form you Tom.

all I posted above, is from either scientific papers, published by reputable sources, or from books written by Boreman. ...

nice to see you calling my research "broad unhelpful inaccurate statements" ....

what you posted above, does not go against what I have posted. so .... again, didnt expect it from you ...

That post was clearly in response to CHUBs post. It had nothing to do with you. The papers you cited are are fineand could be helpful. The extrapolations are debateable hypothesizing. The attacks you seem intent on making toward many here are not ok .Stop it. This thread is not all about you.

 

[Paul B]

just joshing ya. Academia had hardened me from criticism. I can change a tire btw

I know you were. Even if you were not kidding, I was a Sargent in Viet Nam and a Construction electrician foreman in Manhattan running well over 100 men for many years and I have been called every name in the book. It is impossable for me to get mad or even a little upset on a fish forum. It's a hobby. :wavehand:

I was told here that my corals are not colorful, but when I was a kid, before there was color TV they sold this tinted glass thing that you bolted to your TV. It was tinted blue near the top and green near the bottom so if you were watching a grassy meadow with a blue sky, it looked great, but if you were watching anything else, it looked rediculous. I have one of those on my tank, only it is multicolored so all my corals look like a Kolidescope. If you don't know what that is (and I am sure I spelled it wrong) you are to young :lol2:

 

[dkeller_nc]

Well, not all of us PhDs are "Pin Headed Dopes", some of us actually have electrician's licenses.

 

[Allmost]

I was told here that my corals are not colorful, but when I was a kid, before there was color TV they sold this tinted glass thing that you bolted to your TV. It was tinted blue near the top and green near the bottom so if you were watching a grassy meadow with a blue sky, it looked great, but if you were watching anything else, it looked rediculous. I have one of those on my tank, only it is multicolored so all my corals look like a Kolidescope. If you don't know what that is (and I am sure I spelled it wrong) you are to young :lol2:

is this for real ? never heard of it lol way cool. this morning I was told about the scratch and sniff cards given out prior to the 70s in the movies lol. that was prety interesting too.
[the TV part that was]