Solaris Led lighting systems
- Thread starter JohnL
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Musho3210
New member
Why do 55 watt PC's run hotter than 58 watt T5's?
Pc bulbs have more surface area to "release" there heat but then why are they hotter than T5's that dont have as much surface area to "release" there heat.
And bean is one of the few people here who is putting down scientific fact vs people who have owned solaris for a few months. I follow beans posts rather than people who go The solaris is great! without putting any scientific evidence next to it.
Pc bulbs have more surface area to "release" there heat but then why are they hotter than T5's that dont have as much surface area to "release" there heat.
And bean is one of the few people here who is putting down scientific fact vs people who have owned solaris for a few months. I follow beans posts rather than people who go The solaris is great! without putting any scientific evidence next to it.
jaydubh11
New member
When I first saw this thread I was excited to see numerous pages of info on a lighting system after not finding much else about it on the net. After reading through it, turns out this thread is mostly about MH vs. LED.
I think that there are a lot of people, self included, that are considering the LED fixture for a tank that they would rather not use MH on. So, for me, it's not about MH vs. LED, it is more about finding info on this new technology and what it can do (and not in comparison to MH).
Dimmable lights, built-in timers, variable speed cooling fans, adjustable spectrums, efficiency, etc. make this an appealing fixture in my book.
I'm basically just trying to say everybody in this hobby should know that there is more than one "right" way. What you view as the "best" may not be the best option for someone else.
I think that there are a lot of people, self included, that are considering the LED fixture for a tank that they would rather not use MH on. So, for me, it's not about MH vs. LED, it is more about finding info on this new technology and what it can do (and not in comparison to MH).
Dimmable lights, built-in timers, variable speed cooling fans, adjustable spectrums, efficiency, etc. make this an appealing fixture in my book.
I'm basically just trying to say everybody in this hobby should know that there is more than one "right" way. What you view as the "best" may not be the best option for someone else.
PSam
Active member
Totally unnecessary. He is not posting 'negative crap', only his thoughts, reasoning, and some info to support what he writes. Nobody is flaming any person or product. If you're not up to read any debate or healthy discussion, as some of us on the thread are, please find another thread.
Gobie74
New member
I'm glad I stuck around to read this. Prior to this, I thought you guys ( hahn and bean ) just didn't like LEDs at all in any form. But now I'm thinking maybe you guys just don't like the LEDs that are available now and see potential for them in the future. Thats good to hear. Thanks.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Yes there is a lot of that here. I think it keeps cropping up because questions keep getting asked and the answers that are provided are not the whole truth. MOreover, the entire "sales pitch" from the manufacturer is based on the LED fixture VS a MH fixture. Not only in terms of light output, but heat generation, electrical costs, bulb costs etc.
Many of those folks are "considering" due to misinformation or a lack of information. There are certainly a lot of answers here for those who did not have them. Others have the facts but have their own reasons for choosing the SOLARIS or similar fixtures.
I think the subject is somewhat invertible. The "claims" keep coming up as part of the "information". The friendly answers and advice tend to get attacked by those who feel "bashed" I suppose.
The unit does have some nice features that are certainly appealing. I think they are very interesting as well. I would like to see the technology mature enough to be competitive.
Absolutely. Most of the people that feel that way are having a dialog about the technology. A sad few are rabid defenders of their opinion and could care less about fact or science and are more interested in slinging insults.
With regard to the SOLARIS units. I think many of us like the idea but are not at all impressed with the output and quality for the price. Many of us understand that PFO is working on the quality control issues (and may have most of it under control)... but also wonder how much profit is being made when the product is not quite up to snuff. In other words, drop the price a little OR put a bit more money into the product.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I just don't think they are mature enough yet. The cold hard facts seem to back that up. The fixtures certainly do appear to be viable lighting for some setups. The sales literature and reality are two different things.
I would love to have a better light source than MH for MANY reasons. The LED promises to fill MOST of those reasons. When it does, I will certainly be in line for a fixture.
When you see commercial and industrial high and mid bay lighting start to switch to LEDs, then you will know that the technology is mature and/or a viable alternative.
I am sure hahn is in the same boat.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
I am used to it, the world is full of people that act like that cat. I suppose that he feels much better getting that off of his chest. It is good for the "self esteem"
PFO Lighting
New member
I would like to explain in detail why the Solaris is seeing results that it does. There are multiple reasons.
First the Solaris is an extremely focused light. Because of the extreme point source of the LED and it is pointing all the light downward you have a much easier time focusing the light where you want it to go. In a metal halide fixture the bulbs are tremendously large and to focus the light requires a huge reflector. Since most tanks are in peoples living room they prefer smaller compact reflector designs. What this means is less focusing of the light and more light spread where you do not need it. Bean made a statement a few pages back about “what if somebody designed a reflector that focused the light like the solaris, you would really get a huge amount of light in the tank†The reflector could be designed but it would be very large and probably have some huge losses due to multiple beam reflections required. The Solaris puts the light in a very focused area where a large portion of the metal halide light goes where you do not need it like on the floor. Now if you have a wide, or square tank then you are able to capture a lot more of the light that is being produced by the metal halide lamp. This would make the Solaris less efficient and the metal halide more efficient. However, most people have a rectangle that is taller than it is wide.
The other reason why LED’s are good is because the metal halide lamps are so bad at producing blue light. I keep posting the lumens/watt table of different metal halides to show how bad the metal halides produce blue light. A 20K metal halide is producing 17 lumens/watt. A 10K is producing around 37 lumens/watt. The white LED we are currently using is producing 25 lumens/watt and the blue is around 9 lumens/watt. Since we mix the two in about an even mix it comes out to 17 lumens/watt. That is the same efficiency as the 20k Metal halide lamp.
We can then take the same efficiency light and focus the light into the tank where we want it to go. We do not waste the light and have it go on the floor or be lost in the reflector like a metal halide lamp. Without the wasted light we are able to use less energy to light the same area in the tank. With using 40% less energy we have 40% less heat to get rid of. Also the LED sends the heat out the back rather than down into the tank. If you took all those leds and put them on a 1†square as bean has implied the heat radiating forward would still be negligible. All you would feel is the heat being dispersed out the back and then possible moving forward if you had a poor heat sink.
As bean so amply says it just physics.
So if you like blue 20K look and have a rectangle tank than the Solaris is a good lighting option. If you have large square or round tank and prefer the 6.5K look then it is probably not the best solution currently. Our website at www.solarisled.com can explain more of what I just tried to explain here.
First the Solaris is an extremely focused light. Because of the extreme point source of the LED and it is pointing all the light downward you have a much easier time focusing the light where you want it to go. In a metal halide fixture the bulbs are tremendously large and to focus the light requires a huge reflector. Since most tanks are in peoples living room they prefer smaller compact reflector designs. What this means is less focusing of the light and more light spread where you do not need it. Bean made a statement a few pages back about “what if somebody designed a reflector that focused the light like the solaris, you would really get a huge amount of light in the tank†The reflector could be designed but it would be very large and probably have some huge losses due to multiple beam reflections required. The Solaris puts the light in a very focused area where a large portion of the metal halide light goes where you do not need it like on the floor. Now if you have a wide, or square tank then you are able to capture a lot more of the light that is being produced by the metal halide lamp. This would make the Solaris less efficient and the metal halide more efficient. However, most people have a rectangle that is taller than it is wide.
The other reason why LED’s are good is because the metal halide lamps are so bad at producing blue light. I keep posting the lumens/watt table of different metal halides to show how bad the metal halides produce blue light. A 20K metal halide is producing 17 lumens/watt. A 10K is producing around 37 lumens/watt. The white LED we are currently using is producing 25 lumens/watt and the blue is around 9 lumens/watt. Since we mix the two in about an even mix it comes out to 17 lumens/watt. That is the same efficiency as the 20k Metal halide lamp.
We can then take the same efficiency light and focus the light into the tank where we want it to go. We do not waste the light and have it go on the floor or be lost in the reflector like a metal halide lamp. Without the wasted light we are able to use less energy to light the same area in the tank. With using 40% less energy we have 40% less heat to get rid of. Also the LED sends the heat out the back rather than down into the tank. If you took all those leds and put them on a 1†square as bean has implied the heat radiating forward would still be negligible. All you would feel is the heat being dispersed out the back and then possible moving forward if you had a poor heat sink.
As bean so amply says it just physics.
So if you like blue 20K look and have a rectangle tank than the Solaris is a good lighting option. If you have large square or round tank and prefer the 6.5K look then it is probably not the best solution currently. Our website at www.solarisled.com can explain more of what I just tried to explain here.
jaydubh11
New member
I see where you are coming from, BeanAnimal, and I can appreciate the time you are putting into this thread. I'm just giving my perspective - I came into the thread looking for more reports from owners and their experience with the product - and I imagine others were looking for the same.
I do agree the PFO has some things they could improve upon - hopefully the AquaIllumination will bring some competition.
I do agree the PFO has some things they could improve upon - hopefully the AquaIllumination will bring some competition.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
There are some subtle and not so subtle differences that make a difference.
The biggest difference: T5s do get rather hot... but their long linear shape helps them shed the heat. The PC bulbs are U shaped and therefore radiate a good portion of their energy back into the other side of the bulb. Of course this is ALSO the reason the PC bulbs suck so bad compared to a linear bulb. MUCH of the light is wasted by restrike and self shadow. It is impossible to build a highly efficient reflector also.
I have not look at a WATT per sqaure area of glass or glass thickness (never thought to look into it). But I think if you did, there would be some telling data also.
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
Yes competition is certainly going to help move these products forward and prices down (maybe not in the short term) but the big holdup will be newer LED die technology and lower production costs. The "features" part of these units are mind numbingly simple to implement. Any 2 bit programmer that has ever used a PIC, ATMEL, MOTO or other uC could write the software in an afternoon. In other words, expect to see many more fixtures with "controller" like functions for solar and lunar cycles bulb life counters, etc.
The hobby is growing quickly and "high tech" stuff is certainly starting to catch on.
stimpy4242
New member
ok so after pulling physics books at the library...yeah you read right...i can't believe i am doing this, but I hate being wrong....it very clearly states as the short excerpt that I posted before...that ONE TYPE OF ENERGY is HEAT...but ENERGY IS NOT ONLY HEAT AND NOTHING ELSE....energy comes in multiple forms....ONLY ONE of which is HEAT...prove me wrong...
BeanAnimal
Premium Member
No argument there. The majority of the radiated heat from the MH bulb is UV.
I am not going to rehash the reflector or output arguments, I think both myself (and others) and you (PFO) has said what they have to say. It is apparent that no amount of back and forth argument is going to change your claims or our opinions on those claims. I suppose you think we are being over critical and we think you are being over optimistic.
I appreciate your (Pat, and PFOs) kind responses and the fact that you guys do appear to be working at building a viable product as well as keeping an open dialog with critics as well as clients. I am certainly a prospective future customer (don't you love customers like me!) but not until the next generation of LEDs arrive.
I look forward to more independent testing of your (and the competitions fixtures) compared to high end MH setups.
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OK, slightly perturbed now (and would love Pat's input on this)
Finally got around to hooking up my Kill-a-watt to my Solaris H4 fixture and at peak intensity, the two ballasts are drawing 440 watts. The fixture is rated for 300 watt usage (for the 36 inch H4). I'm not sure why there's such a discrepancy unless the 300 watt figure is an average over the day (including cloud cover, night time, etc.) Regardless, it does mean that we're using more power than I was expecting and energy efficiency is one of the features that the Solaris is promoting. I'm also going to check the kwH at the end of the day to get an idea of how much energy it used for the day.
Spleen
PS:
Bean - I think you meant the word "prospective"
Finally got around to hooking up my Kill-a-watt to my Solaris H4 fixture and at peak intensity, the two ballasts are drawing 440 watts. The fixture is rated for 300 watt usage (for the 36 inch H4). I'm not sure why there's such a discrepancy unless the 300 watt figure is an average over the day (including cloud cover, night time, etc.) Regardless, it does mean that we're using more power than I was expecting and energy efficiency is one of the features that the Solaris is promoting. I'm also going to check the kwH at the end of the day to get an idea of how much energy it used for the day.
Spleen
PS:
Bean - I think you meant the word "prospective"
PSam
Active member
Energy is not my area of expertise, though I understand some of the basic laws of thermodynamics / physics, etc, at least enough to follow some of these posts. I do need to say that the posts on this thread re: energy are a touch more advanced than the list of rudimentary "Forms of Energy" definitions you posted verbatim from the Kid's energy page last night (page 17 of this thread) (http://www.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/science/formsofenergy.html).
No mention of thermodynamics on there? Interesting.
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stimpy4242
New member
I searched hard to find that post on a kids page...that was the whole point that even little kids can see there are different types of energy....thats all...doesn't need to be advanced...
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