Something like Alk-burn but not alk burn?

[Canarygirl]

I have been fighting a problem for many months where the very tips of some SPS corals turn light brown then start to grow algae or cyano on them. The whole tip section will eventually die if I don't cut it off. One colony I let this run its course and the whole colony died. Sometimes but not always there is poor PE on the affected corals. Most newly-introduced frags will lose PE, get the brown algae on the tip, then die. But there are some colonies that have never had the symptom (my Palmer's Blue Millie, and a nasuta for example)

It's very frustrating. I tried doing many water changes over 2 weeks and changed ~40% of my water volume during that period...things seemed better but then after a few weeks of normal WC of 5-10% per week, the tip burn occurs again. I run carbon passively in mesh bag in the sump, changed every 3 weeks.

I have been testing Alk every other day and it is stable at ~7.5 dhk (Elos)
Ca is 400 (Elos)
Mg is 1200 (Elos)
K+ is ~400 (KZ)

Are there other causes for this phenomenon and what might those be? I have an infestation of majanos/aptaisia (both kinds) in a tank that shares the same water as my display tank. Could these be creating alleopathy that is affecting sps in a separate tank? Or could they be depleting an element needed by the SPS? I posted this question in a thread on anenome forum too...

 

[montrealreef]

Hi Canarygirl,

I run into this problem from time to time (it lasts a couple of months at a time) and I have never figured it out, but I have noticed an apparent connection to excessive carbon dosing (i.e. vodka). When I cut down on the carbon source for a few weeks, it seems to improve, but then I trade this for cyanobacteria (frustrating)

Are you adding a carbon source?

 

[Santoki]

double check your Alk numbers with another test kit.
Not common, but a bad batch here and there has been known to make it out to consumers.
-R

 

[Canarygirl]

Montreal, I am using Zeovit at a reduced dosage. I took 3 months off last September to see if this would stop the problem. It did not, the only thing that made a dent was the 2 weeks of 4-5 10% WC's. Now that I'm using a carbon source again, I am using it less aggressively than the recommended protocol.

I will try cross-checking with another test kit on the Alk, although I have switched brands before (LaMotte to Elos) without a noticeable difference. It wouldn't hurt to do it again though.

I have been fighting this problem since last June and have lost at least half of my corals (maybe ~40 species).

 

[LifeAquatic]

There was another recent thread I saw that had your same problem. I think you might be over supplementing the ZEO products. Do a 30% water change and dont use zeo for a bit. See if that helps. = )

 

[LifeAquatic]

If all your params are consistant (alk,cal,mag) flow and lighting is good you should not have any brown tips or algee. Possible that carbon dust is agrivating the corals, but probably not. All thats left to rule out is whatever you are adding to your water.

 

[Canarygirl]

LifeAquatic, I mentioned above in post #4 that I already tried stopping all Zeovit supplements for 3 months and it did not correct the problem. It does not appear to be a Zeovit issue.

I feel that there are other possibilities besides my supplements which I dose conservatively--and I definitely appreciate that this is an unusual situation since it is not caused by too high of Alk.

I actually got a recommendation from two of the mentors on the Zeovit forum to take out my BubbleKing skimmer in case the high powered needlewheel pump might be precipitating trace elements from my water column. Theory being that high-powered needlewheels may not be compatible with Zeovit. I did that experiment for a couple of weeks while I was doing all the water changes. (I can't change more than 10% at a time since I only have a 50g water change bucket). Anyway, I thought that the improvement I saw at that time was probably due to all the water changes as opposed to removing my BubbleKing.

 

[LifeAquatic]

That is a unique problem. I noticed your mag is at 1200. I have had issues in the past with SPS running my mag that low. Here are params that work well for me. Do you dose Lugols Solution? (Potassium Iodine)Be very generous with this. I had problems in the past overdosing Iodine. It makes the tips burn like an ALK overdose. Also, it will make the corrals grow funny. Branches that grew toward the light started turning around and growimg toward the rock and whitening out. Also, under heavy iodine use my Acroporas suffered damage that looked like AEFW spots. After stoping Lugols use everyday, all corals reutrned to normal. Now I only dose a little once a week. I was dosing one drop per day on 200 gallons of water volume. Was to much.

Alk 8.3 - 8.6
cal 420-430
mag 1350-1400

 

[Canarygirl]

My magnesium has been dropping faster than I expected. I didn't measure it for a few months (dumb, I know) and when I tested it a couple of months ago it was 900! I brought it up to 1400 using Kents Tech M but I see that regular WC's are not keeping the magnesium up where I want it to be. I just bought some Zeovit mag crystals to put in my Ca Rx--that worked for me in the past to keep my Mg steady without having to dose anything. But I'll need to bring the level up first...I have a couple of choices to do that, either some Mg sulphate (epsom salts? from my 4-part ESV salt mix) or ESV B-Ionic Mg liquid which I've never used before. THe bottle says it "contains other ions present in SW and can result in increased salinity." Not sure about that... Which one do you think would be better or do you think it makes any difference?

I have not been dosing Potassium Iodine or Iodine but I did just buy a bottle of KZ's "Jod Complex" which contains Potassium Iodide, Bromine, Flourine, and Iodide complex. I've done one dose so far at about 1/3 the recommended qty which is my habit with KZ supps as they tend to be potent.

On your personal best Alk level of 8.3-8.6...I tried to bring my Alk up to that level during the 3 months I wasn't carbon dosing (Zeovit hiatus). But my tips burned even worse every time I tried it. So I've given up and am sticking with the 7.5-8.0, with preference of 7.5...this is the recommended level with Zeo systems to prevent tip burn. Wish it was working for me that way. I will work on the magnesium issue.

thanks very much for the comments

 

[Canarygirl]

by the way, to MontrealReef, if you have the same problem again while you are carbon dosing, try lowering your Alk to ~7.5 dhk and see if it helps.

 

[Oldude]

I have been having some similar sounding issues and I don't use zeo or carbon dose. I have been trying to figure it out as well for a couple of months. I know I had some bad carbon but it's removal only made a temporary difference. The strange thing is some corals have never looked better while lots of others are looking sick. Do your tips look like this?

This coral normally has bright baby blue tips.

 

[Snailpowered]

I have also had this problem soon after upgrading my skimmer. Im assuming that you are running a low nutriant system, and this could be thhe cause of your problem. Try to feed a little heavier and cut your skimmer off for a week.
When i upgraded my skimmer i literallly skimmed the life out of my tank. My paramiters were good and many things looked fine but i was starting to starve my corals. This happened because the skimmer was removing any of the food before my corals could take it in. It started with the tips of corals and then it started to bleach colonies.

Hope this helps i think that everyone else has hit on all of the more logical reasons.

 

[Canarygirl]

ewww...it's earily similar in the darker color flesh. But with mine, the flesh on the tips will be misshapen from trying to grow over the algae. So the tips get knobby and strange looking. The algae is sometimes a light gray-brown stringy stuff that resembles spiderwebbing in texture. It will grow back over and over again (I pull it off with tweezers). On other corals it will be a small dot of red cyano algae on the very tip of the coral, or a rusty brown fuzz. Your coral doesn't seem to have any algae on it and the shape of the coralites looks normal.

I just re-tested my Magnesium in the system and it is actually 1300, not 1200. It was my newly made up SW that tested 1200 (described on the salt thread in Chemistry forum)

 

[Canarygirl]

Snailpowered, could you describe what your coral tips looked like when this was going on? Did they bleach?

In my system, I have some bryopsis in the tank with the aptaisias in it, and I get spots of cyano on the sides of the tank after a couple days of no scraping...it's hard for me to describe my tank as low-nutrient although it was at one time. My latest PO4 test on the hannameter was .09. Given the .04 margin of error, I'm not sure how bad that is. It may be lower now also since I have restarted the Zeovit.

 

[montrealreef]

Thanks Canarygirl,

My alk has been stable at 7 to 8 for over a year now (I used to run it higher) but I am still having problems.

just tested my parameters:

CA: 420
Alk: 7
p.H 8.1
Nitrate 2.5
Mg 1400
S.G. 1.024

Still not sure why I am having this problem. Someone has suggested too much flow, but that does not seem to be it either because it happens to corals in different levels of flow...

Thanks

 

[Canarygirl]

Montreal, do you have any significant amount of majano, aptaisia, or alleopathy-producing lps or softies in your system? Also, what kind of skimmer do you run? Frequency of water changes and % changed?

 

[montrealreef]

I had a major majano outbreak when I first started 4.5 years ago, but that was completely eradicated by my majestic angel. There has not been a single majano or aptaisa in my tank for almost 3 years now.

I only have 3 small LPS corals in my tank and 5 ricordias (no other softies) My tank is 125 G with a 30 G sump and 180 lbs of live rock.

My skimmer is an ATI BM 200. I use activated carbon in a mesh bag which I kneed daily and change once a month.

I do a 15% water change once every 2-3 weeks. I know I should probably do more frequent water changes but my current setup and the space limitation in my apartment make them a real pain to do.

Thanks

sam

 

[Canarygirl]

Nice! Are Majestic angels known for that, or did you just get lucky?

When I first noticed my problem with burned-looking tips, it was last summer and it would get worse on a cyclical basis...improvement immediately after a water change which would last 3-6 days: better color and PE, tips would heal up. If I stuck to my weekly 10% WC schedule, things would be okay-ish. If I let 10 days go by without a WC, I would start seeing burned tips again and major white patches on a large colony of purple haze montipora. The monti would get sicker and sicker as the length of time between WC's got closer to 14 days. There were a few times it was almost completely white (this was a 12" diameter colony) and I thought it was a goner. Then I'd do a WC and presto, it would regain color and 2-3 days after the WC it would be purple and normal again. Then the cycle would repeat. The other corals with tip problems would progress/regress along the same cycle.

This is why I started thinking that there was a toxin building up in my system between WC's but I could never find anything. This cycle is also what inspired the Zeo folks to suggest that the BK skimmer might be skimming some kind of essential element out of the water column that would then get replaced in the WC.

Now I am trying to do two 5% WC's a week instead of one 10%. It seems to help a bit but the problem isn't gone.

 

[snipersps]

I have the same problen over 2 months and i cant fix it, I am testing my water every day now, wath I know my problem star when my CO2 valve was broken and my KH was on 6 them i try to fixed at nigth time and next day when in the afternon my KH was more than 15 and my MAG was 900 since there i have the same problen now my parametes are ok but still losing some acros. I was thinking maybe my kids maybe put on penis on my sump but i check it already and the sump is clean, at this point I have no idea wath is the problem


kh.....8 9
cal......430 450
mag.....1200 1350
Pospate.......0.05

 

[montrealreef]

Nice! Are Majestic angels known for that, or did you just get lucky?.

It's hit and miss with any type of biological control. I heard mixed reviews about majestic angels eating majanos and since they are beautiful fish I thought I would give it a try. For six months, the fish did not even notice the majanos and I had pretty much given up on getting rid of them. Suddenly, it fell in love with them and ate every single one! It has been a model citizen. Beautiful, peaceful, doesn't bother any corals, clams, or sponges. I absolutely love it. That said, my LFS has one that nips on corals and LPS, but leaves SPS and majanos alone. So you can never be sure.. I keep my fish well fed (mysis, krill, cyclops, formula 1&2 frozen food and the occasional fresh oyster) and that may be why it has left my corals alone (but I'm sure luck has a lot to do with it too)