Something like Alk-burn but not alk burn?

[Mike de Leon]

I too am experiencing the same issues with burnt tips. I have done everything. Lately I have changed out the rocks and started to run Purigen. The corals that were badly affected started to show signs of recovery with better PE.

I am suspecting the salt I am using. I use to use IO with no issues. I will be going back to it to see if that's the culprit. I am currently using Coralife.

I am seeing more and more people running into this same burnt tip issue.

 

[Canarygirl]

I went over to the Zeovit forum where Bob (Aged Salt) and Alexander have been so helpful to me over the years. I asked them about visual clues of excessive PO4, and described my "burned tips" on sps. The answer from Bob was that with ALk or light shock, tips will look white and bare of flesh. With excessive PO4, there will be "tip recession...with algae or detritus growing on them." Bingo. Also Steve/Spur2 posted and confirmed that he had this same combination on his sps, right down to the stringy grayish brown algae growing on the tips. His PO4 was about the same as mine at the time.

I feel hopeful again now, having a probable diagnosis that fits the circumstances...the positive effect of water changes, the fact that stopping Zeovit for 3 months did not improve the problem. So thanks Ralph for the info. about that. And thanks everybody else for your input too.

I plan to update this thread if and when I get my PO4 down to describe how the corals are doing. Maybe I will even get motivated and post some pics.

 

[Canarygirl]

Santoki, my affected sps are of various species, not one in particular.

ReefTek, re: your question about running carbon in a Zeo system. The recommendation is to use GAC passively in a mesh bag, to change it out every 3-4 weeks, and to kneed the mesh bag daily to prevent channeling. Using GAC in a reactor is not recommended for Zeo tanks as it will then have a more aggressive action and "can result in negative coral consequences." (This is a generic description of what can happen when you don't follow the recommended guidelines while on Zeovit.)

My experience is that it is pretty easy to create light shock in a Zeo system because water becomes so clear. One time I changed out my GAC and my Zeo media on the same day and doing those things together was enough to light shock my more sensitive SPS. Now I will change GAC or media but not both simultaneously. I think the "Zeo Guide" recommends that when you add new Zeo media you should raise your lights if possible or temporarily reduce the light cycle.

 

[sixtygallon212]

I have gone through this stage. I tested everything and everything was perfect! I found out that I had a nutrient poor system. Nutrients are good!!! Waste is bad. I haven't seen your tank but I would recommend experimenting with adding more food. Do it slowly, if you start getting algae add a bristle tooth tang or some snails. If your fish are well feed add some Dt's to create a healthy food chain. I think you are dwelling to much on chemistry and overlooked nutrient ratios. No phosphates, keep your NO3- at 7-10ppm and I think you will see improvements.

 

[ryanrid]

ULNS have this problem, if you are running a ULNS you will need to feed the coral as they will starve. this is why zeo has all the additives once a ULNS is acheived.

 

[Canarygirl]

I have gone through this stage. I tested everything and everything was perfect! I found out that I had a nutrient poor system. Nutrients are good!!! Waste is bad. I haven't seen your tank but I would recommend experimenting with adding more food. Do it slowly, if you start getting algae add a bristle tooth tang or some snails. If your fish are well feed add some Dt's to create a healthy food chain. I think you are dwelling to much on chemistry and overlooked nutrient ratios. No phosphates, keep your NO3- at 7-10ppm and I think you will see improvements.

I already have algae and spots of cyano on my tank walls. I feed (my husband thinks) a frightening amount of food to the fish each day. But I'll keep your advice in mind about lowering PO4 while keeping NO3 right about where it is now.

 

[ReefTECK]

I feed (my husband thinks) a frightening amount of food to the fish each day.

<----------------Guilty!

Glad to hear your finding some helpful suggestions, and your comments about running GAC passively have got me thinking about what to do with my system as I am moving toward a bacterially driven system. PO4 is always the easiest culprit, and the most probable. I found the insights about light shock and water clarity as an interesting and helpful insight.

I have some questions for you zeo peeps about the PO4 though. I know traditional Zeo systems do not use GFO for PO4, and I mean...this is just mind boggling and nerve wrecking to think about (especially considering how much I feed) What do you do when you get a little carried away feeding your fish? For example I have a copperband (have had him for a year now) and he's a good eater, he's just not as voracious as my yellow belly blue or my purple tang, so I just keep feeding and feeding until I make sure he gets a number of good chunks of food in him. Do you just keep GFO on hand for times when you get concerned with the nutrient concentration? You must check you PO4 daily!?

If I can't get any helpful suggestions to get over my PO4 paranoia, I'll never make it to a fully bacterially driven system!

Thanks again for this thought provoking thread!

 

[Canarygirl]

Yeah, the use of GFO is not recommended in Zeo tanks because you are trying to build up the densities of "Zeo biomass" (bacteria) which need the PO4 in their foodchain. Sof the bacteria dosed via the Zeobac are PO4 consumers. So if you use GFO you will slow down the build up of the kind of bac you want for future PO4 consumption.

It is fine to put a small container of GFO underneath the effluent drip from your Ca Rx though, since this can be a source of excess PO4 in the system. I have done that in the past. It's also fine to put filter socks on your drain pipes for those times when you've overfed or plan to storm the tank and you don't want the wastes to degrade in your tank. You just remove the socks after a day or two.

All of the above is the 'by the book' Zeovit protocol. On the other hand, I have known the odd Zeo user who also used GFO. According to them, it didn't cause any harm. But the risk is that you will reduce PO4 too rapidly this way, causing the inevitable "negative coral consequences." My own experience is that when I took my 4 months off Zeovit, I put in a package of Elos PO4 absorber, in a mesh bag in my sump. I used the entire box because that is the amount recommended for my water volume. I definitely saw coral stress after doing this and if I remember right I lost a few afterwards. So in the future I will only add a small cup of GFO under the Ca Rx effluent....

Here is my .02 on the worse case scenario of taking the plunge and removing your GFO when you start Zeovit (I'm not experienced with other carbon dosing regimens so I won't venture to comment.) It's possible to have a bumpy ride as your nutrients gradually balance out and reduce. If you've had GFO online and you remove it, there can be a period of time where the PO4 rises a little. You may get a bit of algae on your rocks (add more herbivores/detrivores). You may even get a diatom bloom or a cyano bloom on the sandbed if these have been harboring PO4. But these things pass you just have to ride it out. Some people never have it happen but the tanks with PO4 that has precipitated out of their water into their rocks and sand can have it happen. As the PO4/NO3 in the water colum decreases, it can them come out of the rocks and more little algae blooms can occur. So patience is important as it can take up to 6-9 months to get it all out. It did for me when I first started, 2 1/2 years ago. But my corals looked great and grew well. I had large colonies, very colorful. I'm speaking in past tense because things went wrong for me last spring and I lost a whole lot of corals over the next 8 months. I think I slacked off on water testing and my chemistry got out of balance. I know I didn't test Mg for months (it was 900 when I finally tested), and I didn't test PO4 for months either...bad, bad, bad

well, that was a long post!

 

[ReefTECK]

well, that was a long post!

<-----frequently guilty

Okay, that's a valid and interesting idea with the GFO and the effluent. Thanks for your input, I think I'm going to make some gradual changes, and try to test a little more frequently.

Have you made any changes to help your situation? Tips looking much better yet? Or will you end up hacking off the "burnt" pieces?

 

[Canarygirl]

I restarted Zeovit about a month ago, which will help in the long run.
I changed salt brands (to ESV B-Ionic) which I've only used once.
I just purchased a LM3 + auto waterchange pump to help keep the chemistry balanced and PO4 exported. It's not set up yet.
I plan to add the GFO under Ca Rx effluent but haven't done it yet
Gotta get rid of the majanos overtaking my tank! (alleopathy?)
Keep up with changing out the GAC
Keep measuring ALk every 2 days, Ca and Mg once a week

Other than that, trying to be patient and let Zeovit do its thing. I have to say though that I've seen some improvements in the last few days. A litlte better color and PE. Still have funky tips but a few might be improving.

 

[neoalchemist74]

possible iodide or potassium could be too high?

 

[DarkXerox]

I'm surprised this hasn't been asked yet but when was the last time you changed out your DI resins? Or RO membrane if applicable. Also what is the TDS of the permeate? The higher the TDS of the input stream, the faster everything will be exhausted. Plus if you have a large top off and WC regimen, you would accelerate the process.

 

[Canarygirl]

@Neoalchemist,

When I use my KZ K+ test kit, it always shows the K+ level as slightly past 400, which seems strange to me because I haven't supplemented any potassium in well over a year. I just figured that the salt mix I was using must be high in K+. THat was Tunze Reef salt, by the way, which I recently changed out for the new ESV B-Ionic saltwater mix. I've replaced ~50% of my water with the ESV at this point and if I'm not mistaken, things are a little improved. I can tell however that my PO4 is higher because I have new algae growing on the rocks. I don't blame the salt mix for that, I have just not been exporting enough PO4. I'm working on that.

@DarkXerox, my DI resin needs changing out. I replaced the membrane on the unit about 8 months ago. The TDS of water going into the unit averages ~33 and when things are functioning well I get 0 on the exit. I haven't checked in a while, honestly. I will do that and make a point to change out the DI Resin this weekend. My makeup water barrel and SW mixing barrel are 55 gallons each.

I am still having the issue that coral frags that have been in the system for a few months--some, not all--will go rusty brown on the tips, then that area will die, the PE disappears, and the coral then dies. Big colonies don't do this, and frags that are fairly new don't do it...it usually takes a couple of months before this happens. Over on the Zeovit forum they suggested that this is a symptom of too-high of PO4, FWIW. Seems as good a theory as any I guess.

 

[neoalchemist74]

I've been having the same problem, Tissue sloughs off the tips on some acros but the polyps stay for a short period then eventually recede and algea take hold. montis are affected in the same manner but even faster the whole thing seems to happen over night. I'm in my second cycle.{first one in december}I never show any measurable PO4 on a salifert kit and I don"t have much stray algea to speak of, so my PO4 cant be too high. The last time this happened I stopped dosing everything accept kalk and went on a 30% per week water change rampage for about amonth. the only things I dose are brightwell potassion and kent iodide. I've been leaning toward alleopathy {i.e. chemical warfare since I do have 1 large sarcophyton thats currantly waging all out war on an acro. mille. But otherwise I'm at my wits end.
??TOXINS??:hmm4:

 

[Canarygirl]

It's a bummer to be sure. It always gets worse for my tank when I don't do 10% WC's every week. So alleopathy seems to fit.

 

[DarkXerox]

Hmm try running extra carbon then?

 

[Santoki]

In my case, the issue seems to have subsided. I don't know if any of these were the reasons, but I let my Alk drop from 10-8 over two weeks, and started using activated carbon for the first time in a while. I suspect a part of this could be just high Alk? (not that 10dKH is too high, but I doubt the accuracy of these test kits) In my case, some acros were definitely more affected than others.
-R

 

[gasman059]

I guess this is the problem dojour!
Yup same issue here but in my case just got lazy with my alk measurements and dropped to 7 while bringing it back noticed some tips burnt.

i should start keeping track of whcih species suffer from low alk and which suffer from high alk. B/c some corals are fine and others are showing what was mentioned above.

Time and a couple of water changes plus stability should reverse this IME.

 

[Canarygirl]

Mine has been a longterm problem, a year now as a matter of fact. It always includes retracted polyps and tips that turn a rusty brown color, then after a while I notice the tips are dead. They sometimes have algae or coraline growing on them. So it looks different than your typical alk-burn. It may be the too high of phosphate thing that the Zeovit folks said, but I just don't see that my phosphate is any higher now than it was when my tank was younger, and I didn't have these problems then--I had algae, but I didn't have corals doing this.

One theory a friend of mine had is that he and I both added rock from a system that crashed in an extended power outage. Maybe after a period of months, this rock started to leach something out of it that we're not measuring on our test kits...something that got in there during that crash. Just a theory but that's all I've got at this point.

I did swap out my carbon again the other night as that seems to help. I need to be careful not to use too much carbon though because that's one of things that causes problems when you are using Zeovit.

 

[neoalchemist74]

My params are : mag 1350 Elos
alk 8 dkh Salifert ( tested accurate against sample last week)
cal 410 Salifert
phos undetectable Salifert
no3 3 ppm Salifert.
for the last two weeks I've been running dual phos reactors ,with fresh media and extra carbon in a cannister filter that I only run in emergancies. the problem is either getting worse or the affects of the most recent problem are becoming more apparant. One thing I did differant last time this happened was to run a UV sterillizer for about amonth! This time is shaping up to be alot worse. Losing alot of my old friends.