Something wierd is going on
- Thread starter Paul B
- Start date
reefsandrotts
Member
Paul
I agree with your methods and theories,
its my opinion that in todays breed of reef keepers its a strive for pristine water and adding a bunch of things to the water to get it that way.My first reef was 25+ years ago when all there was for filtration was under gravel and wet/dry and they both worked just fine,Ive never used rodi water my thinking is why strip the water just to have to buy additives to replace the minerals mother nature is giving me for free.My down fall is im forever changing tank sizes and dont allow my systems to mature and I feel that is the most important thing to a great tank.
I agree with your methods and theories,
its my opinion that in todays breed of reef keepers its a strive for pristine water and adding a bunch of things to the water to get it that way.My first reef was 25+ years ago when all there was for filtration was under gravel and wet/dry and they both worked just fine,Ive never used rodi water my thinking is why strip the water just to have to buy additives to replace the minerals mother nature is giving me for free.My down fall is im forever changing tank sizes and dont allow my systems to mature and I feel that is the most important thing to a great tank.
Paul B
Premium Member
Reefsandrotts thanks for posting. I also changed my tank in 1976. I went from a 40 gallon to the present 100 gallon. I moved then from a small apartment to my house and have been here ever since. But when I moved I took everything from the smaller tank, including the water and a couple of hours later, put it in it's present tank. All I added was a new UG filter and more dolomite and water. Some of the original water is in my tank from 1971.
I know people will disagree with me on my view of parameters but I can't just go along with current thinking just to make friends. It just doesn't make sense for the reasons I mentioned. I am sure that in the future we will know exactly what makes a healthy reef, but today we don't. This hobby has been around since 1970 and there are as many problems now as there was then, maybe more.
Just search on this forum for ich, hair algae, or cyano and see what you come up with. Also notice that virtually everyone will ask in their post "What are your parameters" and change water. Does that ever work?
No it does not. The problems go away eventually and the poster will think it is the water changes, or the sea hare, or the garlic he fed, or the increased circulation or the clean up crew or the state of health of Paris Hiltons dog. But besides the dog, none of those things fixed the problem so it perpetuates the myths which is the reason for so many "cures" for these things. It is also the reason I severly curtailed my involvement on disease threads. I am in the vast minority on much of this stuff, but my tank doesn't have those problems. It took many years for me to figure it all out. In 60 years you will find out things even if by accident. After you had 300 fish die from ich, you learn how to prevent it and I posted it many times. I get laughed at all the time for it. Usually by people whos'e fish are dying from ich.
But I know I will get hate mail because that is not the common theories.
I know people will disagree with me on my view of parameters but I can't just go along with current thinking just to make friends. It just doesn't make sense for the reasons I mentioned. I am sure that in the future we will know exactly what makes a healthy reef, but today we don't. This hobby has been around since 1970 and there are as many problems now as there was then, maybe more.
Just search on this forum for ich, hair algae, or cyano and see what you come up with. Also notice that virtually everyone will ask in their post "What are your parameters" and change water. Does that ever work?
No it does not. The problems go away eventually and the poster will think it is the water changes, or the sea hare, or the garlic he fed, or the increased circulation or the clean up crew or the state of health of Paris Hiltons dog. But besides the dog, none of those things fixed the problem so it perpetuates the myths which is the reason for so many "cures" for these things. It is also the reason I severly curtailed my involvement on disease threads. I am in the vast minority on much of this stuff, but my tank doesn't have those problems. It took many years for me to figure it all out. In 60 years you will find out things even if by accident. After you had 300 fish die from ich, you learn how to prevent it and I posted it many times. I get laughed at all the time for it. Usually by people whos'e fish are dying from ich.
But I know I will get hate mail because that is not the common theories.
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SpartaReef
New member
I would love to see a log book of your tank husbandry over the years.... I'm sure someone smart enough could find a recipe for success in what you have done. Something that we all could emulate in our own way.
Paul B
Premium Member
I have a log book from about the first 8 years or so listing all the fish I had, how much they cost and how long they lived. Remember I have been SCUBA diving longer than I had salt water fish so I learned a lot from being with the animals, I also feel I think outside the box. But that is because when I started, there was no box so I had the opportunity to figure out everything on my own without being influenced by other people's experience or relying on rumors.
I think I posted everything I do in the years after computers were invented.
As I have said many times most of the success has to do with food such as live worms. I would imagine some of it is the bacteria in the form of mud I add from the sea. I don't think I do much else different from most people except I don't use dosers or really test, but I did in the past and I may if I started a new tank. I haven't thought about that much. :debi:
I think I posted everything I do in the years after computers were invented.
As I have said many times most of the success has to do with food such as live worms. I would imagine some of it is the bacteria in the form of mud I add from the sea. I don't think I do much else different from most people except I don't use dosers or really test, but I did in the past and I may if I started a new tank. I haven't thought about that much. :debi:
Nano sapiens
New member
Interesting read as always 
I had noted occasional growth spurs, for no apparent reason, in my old 50g that I had set up for 10 years. I just attributed the events to 'celestial happenings'
I must admit that I rarely give out advice these days unless asked.
With my current 5 year old 12g nano, I have blended some of my old salty ways with some of the 'new' (when it makes sense). In another 5 years I'll consider the tank 'mature'. Another 30 and I'll likely be the oldest guy with the oldest nano in the US
I had noted occasional growth spurs, for no apparent reason, in my old 50g that I had set up for 10 years. I just attributed the events to 'celestial happenings'
I must admit that I rarely give out advice these days unless asked.
With my current 5 year old 12g nano, I have blended some of my old salty ways with some of the 'new' (when it makes sense). In another 5 years I'll consider the tank 'mature'. Another 30 and I'll likely be the oldest guy with the oldest nano in the US
AZBigJohn
Usually confused...
Just out of curiosity, how has the price of fish changed in those 30 years? The SW fish had to be much rarer and harder to get, so I would think they would be comparatively more expensive, but I was just curious... Realizing of course that we would have to adjust the prices for current cost of living...
King Reefin
New member
Oxidation. And yes I have seen this in fresh water as well. If you keep the tank stabilize the animals will flourish. Aged water allows something to change for the better but what is gone we cannot test for. Or maybe we can but don’t know what it is I think it is a very trace element.
SpartaReef
New member
So far the main thing then is get black worms to feed with... And don't do as frequent of water changes? I'm just looking to add your experience to my knowledge base.
Thank you
Thank you
Paul B
Premium Member
I just looked all over the house and located that log. It starts in October 30, 1976 and ends July 21 1996. It seems I had hundreds of fish and inverts.
I kept some fish for 7 years and many for a day or two. I list a Pacific anemone in 1975, copper band butterflies in 1976, porcupine fish in 1977 as well as a sailfin tang.
In 1976 the tank was a 40 gallon tank and I had 1 tetradon puffer, 1 percula clown 1 French Angel, 1 Tomato clown, 1 Royal Gramma, 1 copperband, 1 Moorish Idol, ! Pacific anemone and 2 hermit crabs. I don't have prices like I thought I had.
In 1987 I had 2 mated (spawning) coral banded shrimp
2 black snake eels (which are gobies and I don't remember them)
1 percula clown
3 Sabae clowns
1 sailfin tang
1 camel backed shrimp
1 21 gun salute shrimp
2 club urchins
1 local urchin
1 yellow tang
1 decorator crab
1 new caladonia damsel
2 blue devils
I unknown crab
1 tiny anemone.
I also list how long most of them lived but I can't find any prices.
It is odd that I had a Moorish Idol in 76. I also write that in 1987 I almost crashed the tank by using "New Fresh Scent Clorox" to treat NSW I used for a water change. All the animals died except 13 of them.
In 1990 I added green star corals and gorgonians.
I list things I did to the tank, good and bad.
I also started a book in those early days with illustrations and drawings.
Some day I am going to read through all of this just for my own history lesson because I hardly remember any of it but it is quite a few pages.
I designed a sump well before they were in use as well as a HOB filter with a skimmer built in.
I wrote a chapter on aquarium maintenance where I say that a salt water aquarium should be cleaned as in-frequently as possible by stirring up the substrait and sucking out the detritus with a diatom filter which is exactly what I do now.
I seemed to cure a French Angelfish of HLLE by feeding it fish oil soaked flakes and pellets. I remember it but can't recall how long it lived. I would have to look through many pages of history to find that.
Ok I found some prices. In 1977 I got a yellow tang for $10.00 and I got some hermit crabs for $3.00. A queen angel for $14.00. Red tail filefish $9.00.
Remora $12.00 (I remember that fish, it grew a foot long and I gave it to the NY Aquarium) Porcupinefish $7.00. Urchin $2.98. Royal Gramma $5.00.
Zebra gobi $6.00.
I wrote many pages of pretty detailed notes of everything I did to the tank. I have not seen this in many years and it is interesting to me.
AZBigJohn
Usually confused...
I wrote many pages of pretty detailed notes of everything I did to the tank. I have not seen this in many years and it is interesting to me.
If you think it's interesting to you, imagine how interesting it is to those of us who love listening to your history and methods over the years...
Glad you were able to find it, and stir up some good memories...
Feel free to drop more "tidbits of wisdom" from its pages anytime!
John
Trigeek
Member
Hey Paul,
Glad to hear your having these problems!:thumbsup:
I've read your tank thread (for those of you who haven't, I highly recommend it) and always open threads that I see your name under as an OP. Being familiar with your husbandry (of your tank, not too familiar your whole marriage situation unless there's a thread on that in the Lounge somewhere, though I can see that you do have a beautiful wife and family from your pics posted), I would guess that your success over the years has much to do with:
your diatom filter blasting
your RUGF
your periodic introduction of LI Sound mud bacteria
your periodic pod infusion
your use of live food
your algae tray
your belief that algae outbreaks are normal phases that tanks go through
You have me thinking and I'm believing that if an algae outbreak of some kind happens, it's not the problem but rather it's correcting a problem and it will run its course. When it does, the whole system is better off for it. The outbreak is a fix for something out of whack. If we throw chemicals at it, we are upsetting the natural homeostasis of the tank and artificially creating a "cleaner" system. Over time, this may cause further/different problems down the line.
My thought is to let things happen, unless it starts to go to extremes. Have measures in place to prevent large problems (algae trays, ATS, skimmers, detritus blasts etc. - choose your weapon(s) as there are plenty out there) and embrace the blooms. The only additives that I feel comfortable with are alk/calcium. Phosphates are an important consideration (if you want your corals to grow) which can be helped along with alk/calcium via kalkwasser, proper feeding and good weaponry :uzi:
I believe this type of thinking is what has allowed you to avoid "old tank syndrome." Your RUGF + dolomite gives you the ability to blast your rocks/substrate which also controls phosphate issues and kicks stuff into the water column to be used or sucked out via filtration.
I really, truly considered using an RUGF this past month. I just switched out an old DSB as I'm switching back to a reef from a mostly FOWLR system that was previously a mixed reef. However, I love the sand too much! So, I'm planning to experiment with a system of sandbed cleaning using large acrylic bulbs and a diatom filter and clean each part of the bed periodically. We'll see. the last DSB I switched out at 7 years, no black death but the sand looked like mashed potatos in spots. I had no problems with it, but I knew that it can't be a good thing to continue to have in my tank all this time. Sandbeds are detritus sinks and stuff will accumulate over time. I saw that first hand as I was removing the old sand. Your RUGF and blasting process takes care of this problem. You keep this up and you'll crash long before your tank.
The above is what I've learned from PaulB. It's how I roll. Thanks Paul!:beer:
Glad to hear your having these problems!:thumbsup:
I've read your tank thread (for those of you who haven't, I highly recommend it) and always open threads that I see your name under as an OP. Being familiar with your husbandry (of your tank, not too familiar your whole marriage situation unless there's a thread on that in the Lounge somewhere, though I can see that you do have a beautiful wife and family from your pics posted), I would guess that your success over the years has much to do with:
your diatom filter blasting
your RUGF
your periodic introduction of LI Sound mud bacteria
your periodic pod infusion
your use of live food
your algae tray
your belief that algae outbreaks are normal phases that tanks go through
You have me thinking and I'm believing that if an algae outbreak of some kind happens, it's not the problem but rather it's correcting a problem and it will run its course. When it does, the whole system is better off for it. The outbreak is a fix for something out of whack. If we throw chemicals at it, we are upsetting the natural homeostasis of the tank and artificially creating a "cleaner" system. Over time, this may cause further/different problems down the line.
My thought is to let things happen, unless it starts to go to extremes. Have measures in place to prevent large problems (algae trays, ATS, skimmers, detritus blasts etc. - choose your weapon(s) as there are plenty out there) and embrace the blooms. The only additives that I feel comfortable with are alk/calcium. Phosphates are an important consideration (if you want your corals to grow) which can be helped along with alk/calcium via kalkwasser, proper feeding and good weaponry :uzi:
I believe this type of thinking is what has allowed you to avoid "old tank syndrome." Your RUGF + dolomite gives you the ability to blast your rocks/substrate which also controls phosphate issues and kicks stuff into the water column to be used or sucked out via filtration.
I really, truly considered using an RUGF this past month. I just switched out an old DSB as I'm switching back to a reef from a mostly FOWLR system that was previously a mixed reef. However, I love the sand too much! So, I'm planning to experiment with a system of sandbed cleaning using large acrylic bulbs and a diatom filter and clean each part of the bed periodically. We'll see. the last DSB I switched out at 7 years, no black death but the sand looked like mashed potatos in spots. I had no problems with it, but I knew that it can't be a good thing to continue to have in my tank all this time. Sandbeds are detritus sinks and stuff will accumulate over time. I saw that first hand as I was removing the old sand. Your RUGF and blasting process takes care of this problem. You keep this up and you'll crash long before your tank.
The above is what I've learned from PaulB. It's how I roll. Thanks Paul!:beer:
SpartaReef
New member
I just looked all over the house and located that log. It starts in October 30, 1976 and ends July 21 1996. It seems I had hundreds of fish and inverts.
I kept some fish for 7 years and many for a day or two. I list a Pacific anemone in 1975, copper band butterflies in 1976, porcupine fish in 1977 as well as a sailfin tang.
In 1976 the tank was a 40 gallon tank and I had 1 tetradon puffer, 1 percula clown 1 French Angel, 1 Tomato clown, 1 Royal Gramma, 1 copperband, 1 Moorish Idol, ! Pacific anemone and 2 hermit crabs. I don't have prices like I thought I had.
In 1987 I had 2 mated (spawning) coral banded shrimp
2 black snake eels (which are gobies and I don't remember them)
1 percula clown
3 Sabae clowns
1 sailfin tang
1 camel backed shrimp
1 21 gun salute shrimp
2 club urchins
1 local urchin
1 yellow tang
1 decorator crab
1 new caladonia damsel
2 blue devils
I unknown crab
1 tiny anemone.
I also list how long most of them lived but I can't find any prices.
It is odd that I had a Moorish Idol in 76. I also write that in 1987 I almost crashed the tank by using "New Fresh Scent Clorox" to treat NSW I used for a water change. All the animals died except 13 of them.
In 1990 I added green star corals and gorgonians.
I list things I did to the tank, good and bad.
I also started a book in those early days with illustrations and drawings.
Some day I am going to read through all of this just for my own history lesson because I hardly remember any of it but it is quite a few pages.
I designed a sump well before they were in use as well as a HOB filter with a skimmer built in.
I wrote a chapter on aquarium maintenance where I say that a salt water aquarium should be cleaned as in-frequently as possible by stirring up the substrait and sucking out the detritus with a diatom filter which is exactly what I do now.
I seemed to cure a French Angelfish of HLLE by feeding it fish oil soaked flakes and pellets. I remember it but can't recall how long it lived. I would have to look through many pages of history to find that.
Ok I found some prices. In 1977 I got a yellow tang for $10.00 and I got some hermit crabs for $3.00. A queen angel for $14.00. Red tail filefish $9.00.
Remora $12.00 (I remember that fish, it grew a foot long and I gave it to the NY Aquarium) Porcupinefish $7.00. Urchin $2.98. Royal Gramma $5.00.
Zebra gobi $6.00.
I wrote many pages of pretty detailed notes of everything I did to the tank. I have not seen this in many years and it is interesting to me.
Paul, combine that book and your logs and publish it... I'll certainly buy a copy!
Paul B
Premium Member
Trigeek, Thank you. This October is our 40th anniversary, she is my starter wife.
(and my trophy wife)
I do like to let things sort themselves out and they always do, besides algae and cyano there have been flatworms and marginal snails. I never did anything and it all went away by itself. People that tweek have the most problems.
Sparta reef, some day I will put the more interesting parts of that book together to post. It is all outdated but may be interesting to noobs. I was invited to speak on the history of the hobby twice. I wonder why they picked me? :wavehand:
interesting.
i have recently been feeding mine worms too. just wondering if they were a good "everday" food or not. generally i feed worms about 4-5 times a week. 1-2 days mysis and 1-2 days rods food.
the fish are really doing well, better than any i've ever owned. (i haven't lost any with this feeding regime) and i have not quarantined either. when i added a mkoskers, it appeared that a couple cardinals and the wrasse were developing ich. and my rainsfords was "flashing" on rocks. lasted about 4-5 days and never developed any further. they are all fine now. healthy fish=healthy fish?
i have recently been feeding mine worms too. just wondering if they were a good "everday" food or not. generally i feed worms about 4-5 times a week. 1-2 days mysis and 1-2 days rods food.
the fish are really doing well, better than any i've ever owned. (i haven't lost any with this feeding regime) and i have not quarantined either. when i added a mkoskers, it appeared that a couple cardinals and the wrasse were developing ich. and my rainsfords was "flashing" on rocks. lasted about 4-5 days and never developed any further. they are all fine now. healthy fish=healthy fish?
Cloudburst2000
Active member
I recently received my brother-in-law Cole's Biocube 14. It has been a running system for close to four years. He set it up with live rocks from one of the tanks I was breaking down to upgrade and frags he received out of my tanks. He also had it stocked fairly heavily for a 14g tank...a large yellow watchman goby, a fairly large percula clown, and a tailspot blenny. The only addition I added after receiving the tank was a pistol shrimp. Besides corals, the tank also has a large hawaiin feather duster and one of those pink feather dusters (forgot the name). Anyhoo, the first three years Cole was religious with water changes and kept nitrates well below 10ppm. In the last year while preparing for the move, he got extremely lax with aquarium maintenance and saw his nitrates spike to about 50ppm. Like in your case, the tank thrived. It saw a boom in coral growth. He also did not see any nuisance algae. He only has coralline in the tank. He didn't do a water change for months. He simply dosed calcium when needed. He was also confused why the tank was doing so well with a minimum of maintenance. I told him that I didn't think nitrates was a huge indication of tank health. I think the rocks were so well-established by that point that they could 'handle' the tank. I also think the higher nitrates provided more 'food' for the corals. Since getting the tank in early March, I have done one water change right after relocating the tank just in case anything bad was stirred up during the move. After that, I haven't done anything else. Why fool around with something that is thriving? Cole also has a good CUC so it is possible that any 'nuisance' algae is just taken care of quickly before it becomes an issue.
I have also seen similar occurrences in my tanks. I was out of town on business at the beginning of the year for a month. My mother feed my nano tank...overfed it I should say. When I got home my nitrates were over 80ppm and the tank was covered in hair algae. But my corals were doing AWESOME! And I'm fairly sure I only had algae problems because I had let my CUC dwindle. Once I replenished the CUC, the algae disappeared. It took longer (a few weeks of 50%) water changes to get the nitrates back down to about 6ppm. I saw absolutely no ill effects from high nitrates other than algae and that was due to practically having no CUC left. My corals grew very well with the high nitrates...more growth then I normally see. So based on my experiences with my own tanks and Cole's tank, I don't think elevated nitrates is necessarily an indication of poor tank health. I would let the nitrates in my own tank go back up but I keep all my trace elements in check through regular water changes.
I have also seen similar occurrences in my tanks. I was out of town on business at the beginning of the year for a month. My mother feed my nano tank...overfed it I should say. When I got home my nitrates were over 80ppm and the tank was covered in hair algae. But my corals were doing AWESOME! And I'm fairly sure I only had algae problems because I had let my CUC dwindle. Once I replenished the CUC, the algae disappeared. It took longer (a few weeks of 50%) water changes to get the nitrates back down to about 6ppm. I saw absolutely no ill effects from high nitrates other than algae and that was due to practically having no CUC left. My corals grew very well with the high nitrates...more growth then I normally see. So based on my experiences with my own tanks and Cole's tank, I don't think elevated nitrates is necessarily an indication of poor tank health. I would let the nitrates in my own tank go back up but I keep all my trace elements in check through regular water changes.
