SPS struggling...usually evident on montipora first, then others.

[dg3147]

My tank has been struggling for over a year. About 6 months ago I even did a complete re-quarantine for red bugs/AEFW and, though I succeeded in beating the pests, this did not help the coral STN/growth issue.

SPS seem to struggle with occasional STN. The STN is then nearly 100% reversed with water changes (Usually Red Sea Coral Pro ...though I have tried other salts as well with similar results). It is most evident on the montiporia which become pale and "dusty" colored then start to die of via STN (not nudibrach damage). The monitporia seem to serve as the best indicator species for the same phenomena that affects almost all of the SPS.

After 10% water changes, all corals color rebound and growth explodes for about 7 days, then the cycle re-starts. Larger water changes have slightly longer duration of success.

Parameters:
Cl 400 (salifert)
Mg >1500 (takes more than the 1ml syringe by about another 0.2ml)
Kh 10.4 (this was closer to 7-8 for the first 8 months. I did a massive water change a few weeks ago and this jumped it up). Alk swings are otherwise nearly non-existant. Dose Kalk in ATO.
PhO4 0
NO43 0
Stopped running GFO and carbon 4 months ago. No Change.
No stray voltage.

5-stage RO filters changed every 6 months.
No chloramine detected at this time (though tank was launched with older filters and when I checked after 4 months of running this tank, the chloramine test kit was positive. since then filters have been changed and issue resolved).

Lighting T5x4 with 2 supplemental LED reefbrites (same as old tank that did not have these issues).

Flow is heavy.
Tank is well stocked and fed heavily.

Inverts are happy. Clam is happy.
LPS seem okay.

Pic of the problem:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/user/david_gutkin/media/4E01988C-C947-4C0D-A9CD-64BD0B5F451F.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/4E01988C-C947-4C0D-A9CD-64BD0B5F451F.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4E01988C-C947-4C0D-A9CD-64BD0B5F451F.jpg"/></a>

Versus 2 days after a water change:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/user/david_gutkin/media/E842CAA9-C2E5-49F7-BC8F-D4D435F4C0B1.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/E842CAA9-C2E5-49F7-BC8F-D4D435F4C0B1.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo E842CAA9-C2E5-49F7-BC8F-D4D435F4C0B1.jpg"/></a>

Argggggg!

 

[cheezybuda]

You are running pretty hot on your Mg. It may not be the problem, but likely not helping. How is your PH?

 

[dg3147]

You are running pretty hot on your Mg. It may not be the problem, but likely not helping. How is your PH?

Agreed it is odd that Mg is so high. I have never dosed it, so it should never be hight then the salt mix allows. Ph on the Apex reads 8.7; though, I have not calibrated the probe in over a year. I usually do not follow Ph.

Just stumped as to why a 10% water change would help so much. Seems like some key element is in short supply without it.

 

[Arkayology]

Are the params of the water change water the same as your DT's params?

 

[dg3147]

Are the params of the water change water the same as your DT's params?

After the last 40% water change they likely are...before that probably not. But again, SPS do better after all water changes.

 

[Jpugh73]

8.7 is really high might need to recalibrate

 

[jeremy K]

I see you are dosing kalk, and your Mg is high. Are you allowing kalk solids into the tank? This might raise Mg, and also add heavy metals to the tank. I had similar issues with montipora dying, stopped dosing kalk and ran cuprisorb, and it got better.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Getting nitrates to slightly detectable levels fixed a similar problem for me. If you're doing any sort of carbon dosing or bio pellets then stop that. Otherwise, I started to dose small amounts of sodium nitrate and and potassium nitrate. Bump your nitrates to 1 or 2 ppm and see if that makes the difference. Alternatively you could dose some amino acids and probably get the same effect for a lot more money

 

[dg3147]

I see you are dosing kalk, and your Mg is high. Are you allowing kalk solids into the tank? This might raise Mg, and also add heavy metals to the tank. I had similar issues with montipora dying, stopped dosing kalk and ran cuprisorb, and it got better.

Re Kalk: I cannot imagine that is the issue --kalk is such a tried and proven way to go. But maybe I can try running cuprisorb just in case. Did u test for copper in any way special first? What's the best way to run it through my system? stick a bag in my old GFO reactor or just toss it in the sump?

Getting nitrates to slightly detectable levels fixed a similar problem for me. If you're doing any sort of carbon dosing or bio pellets then stop that. Otherwise, I started to dose small amounts of sodium nitrate and and potassium nitrate. Bump your nitrates to 1 or 2 ppm and see if that makes the difference. Alternatively you could dose some amino acids and probably get the same effect for a lot more money

Yeah...one of the many ironies and contradictions in this hobby ("your water is too clean, your water is too dirty"). I am massively trying to overfeed --though, I agree it could still be an issue. Even with overfeeding my nitrates are not budging. But why would water changes help this? Theories?

Thanks for the input so far.Keep it coming. I will try to post any positive results.

 

[Peter Eichler]

Re Kalk: I cannot imagine that is the issue --kalk is such a tried and proven way to go. But maybe I can try running cuprisorb just in case. Did u test for copper in any way special first? What's the best way to run it through my system? stick a bag in my old GFO reactor or just toss it in the sump?



Yeah...one of the many ironies and contradictions in this hobby ("your water is too clean, your water is too dirty"). I am massively trying to overfeed --though, I agree it could still be an issue. Even with overfeeding my nitrates are not budging. But why would water changes help this? Theories?

Thanks for the input so far.Keep it coming. I will try to post any positive results.

There is more dissolved nitrogen in freshly mixed saltwater than in a tank that is deficient. Feeding heavily never help me me much in the long term, the tank would always adapt and I would still have undetectable nitrates. Bumping your nitrates a couple PPM is totally safe, you should be able to see results within a couple weeks, and it will cost you less than $10. Maybe that's not your problem, but it's fairly easy to find out.

 

[dg3147]

There is more dissolved nitrogen in freshly mixed saltwater than in a tank that is deficient. Feeding heavily never help me me much in the long term, the tank would always adapt and I would still have undetectable nitrates. Bumping your nitrates a couple PPM is totally safe, you should be able to see results within a couple weeks, and it will cost you less than $10. Maybe that's not your problem, but it's fairly easy to find out.

Ok, just ordered Sodium Nitrate from here: http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh....php?t=2348492

I should try the cuprisorb as well perhaps.

 

[dg3147]

Beginning to dose NaNO3 today.

Using this formula:
"One quarter tsp or 1.8g of NaNO3 with give you a 7ppm increase of nitrate in 190L (50 US gallons) of water."

I am going to dissolve 1/4 tsp of Sodium Nitrate in water and add it daily. Aiming to get NO3 up to 1-2ppm (or just barely pink on Salifert Test Kit).

 

[dg3147]

Hmmmm....one full tsp barely caused color change in my system. Added the whole thing...now I wait.

 

[tdb320reef]

Beginning to dose NaNO3 today.

Using this formula:
"One quarter tsp or 1.8g of NaNO3 with give you a 7ppm increase of nitrate in 190L (50 US gallons) of water."

I am going to dissolve 1/4 tsp of Sodium Nitrate in water and add it daily. Aiming to get NO3 up to 1-2ppm (or just barely pink on Salifert Test Kit).

FYI 1.8G = 1 tsp salt not 1/4. I would start with 1/8 tsp to be safe and allow your corals to uptake the nitrogen gradually.

 

[jg93]

IMHO this is 100% related to this

Kh 10.4 (this was closer to 7-8 for the first 8 months. I did a massive water change a few weeks ago and this jumped it up).

Jumps in Alk will do this everytime. The problems don't appear 10 minutes later, either, but down the line. Just my opinion.

 

[dg3147]

There is more dissolved nitrogen in freshly mixed saltwater than in a tank that is deficient. Feeding heavily never help me me much in the long term, the tank would always adapt and I would still have undetectable nitrates. Bumping your nitrates a couple PPM is totally safe, you should be able to see results within a couple weeks, and it will cost you less than $10. Maybe that's not your problem, but it's fairly easy to find out.

IMHO this is 100% related to this

Kh 10.4 (this was closer to 7-8 for the first 8 months. I did a massive water change a few weeks ago and this jumped it up).

Jumps in Alk will do this everytime. The problems don't appear 10 minutes later, either, but down the line. Just my opinion.

I thought that was my issue as well, but the tank was stable around 7-8 for the first year the tank was in operation with the same issue. In my particular tank, I don't think it was the issue. Also, water changes helped then as well.

Current alk is stable at 10-10.4 for several months. And again, water chnages help.

 

[Mortie31]

What are your potassium levels? Some ULNS seem to use high amounts of potassium should be around 380- 400. Low potassium usual shows with greyed out montis. Maybe worth checking. Also your ca, mg and alk are out of balance, when you raised your alk to 10 you should of balanced your Ca to match probably somewhere around 450ish. There are loads of posts on this balance

 

[Moser]

Try dosing Lugol's Iodine.
I know many tank's that had this issue with monti's and Lugol's iodine turned the tank around within a week.

No harm in trying it. If you dosed only one additive, that would be it!.it also makes your blues and purples pop!....

Mo

 

[a.browning]

What are your potassium levels? Some ULNS seem to use high amounts of potassium should be around 380- 400. Low potassium usual shows with greyed out montis. Maybe worth checking. Also your ca, mg and alk are out of balance, when you raised your alk to 10 you should of balanced your Ca to match probably somewhere around 450ish. There are loads of posts on this balance

Yes, check your potassium levels using a Salifert potassium kit. Could definitely be the issue. I experienced similar issues with my montipora, including plating, encrusting and branching montipora. My K ended up being closer to 300 instead of 400 like it should be. I've brought it back up using brightwells potassium but any supplement could be used. I'm convinced my salt mix was highly deficient at one point. Everything is making a turn for the better, with regards to PE and color.

 

[dg3147]

Resolved the issue. It has been 4 months and the fix certainly worked. The only problem is, I did several changes all at once.

1) Artificially RAISED NO3 levels using additive. I was testing with broken salifert kit, so way overshot the mark. Oddly enough, despite off the chart NO3, the tank seemed essentially fine. I then realized kit was broken and brought NO3 back down to barely detectable by VODKA DOSING.

2) Began adding all 4 components of RED SEA CORAL COLORS.

So, I have no idea what actually fixed the problem. Essentially, several things got added: NO3, vodka, and 4 bottles of Coral Colors. Any of these might have fixed the issue.

Here are todays pics. Growth has been great and colors are popping for 4 months straight.

Right tank:
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/user/david_gutkin/media/42A6450E-A926-42E0-AEAD-0173D4C0A5DF.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/42A6450E-A926-42E0-AEAD-0173D4C0A5DF.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 42A6450E-A926-42E0-AEAD-0173D4C0A5DF.jpg"/></a>

And here is the montiporia (before):
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/user/david_gutkin/media/4E01988C-C947-4C0D-A9CD-64BD0B5F451F.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/4E01988C-C947-4C0D-A9CD-64BD0B5F451F.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 4E01988C-C947-4C0D-A9CD-64BD0B5F451F.jpg"/></a>

Montiporia (after):
<a href="http://s774.photobucket.com/user/david_gutkin/media/045664E8-A8E4-4025-9104-40F1CDF4ABF2.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i774.photobucket.com/albums/yy22/david_gutkin/045664E8-A8E4-4025-9104-40F1CDF4ABF2.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo 045664E8-A8E4-4025-9104-40F1CDF4ABF2.jpg"/></a>