Starting my propogation business...

[dave willmore]

Hi chewitback, I just read your thread and wish you luck. I have some construction background and can give you some free advice if you wish. I am building a 400 sq ft greenhouse myself for my reef habit and am putting in 3,500 gallons or so.

First, your roof can still be installed over the winter. Have your carpenter throw together some 2 x4s and cover with a big roll of clear plastic to make a tent. Add one space heater and you have warm temps on your roof to continue working. Second, I recall that you're using a rolled rubber roof, is this Epdm rubber? Agreed you need warmth for the adhesive but the tent should give you that. This stuff is also available in big rolls so you might consider putting it down without seams which means no adhesive and you can install in colder temps. Then you might be in business sooner than spring.

You mention that you're resetting your loan through the winter. Does this mean you're paying it off from your current small operation? If so, you are indeed good at what you do and I admire you.

If not I don't know what you mean by resetting. Also, beware your construction contractors just as you should beware your consultants. Im not trying to be rough on any of these nice people but tHeir incentive is not to make your business successful but to keep talking you into needing more of their work. I don't mean to be hard on anyone, but your success is their last priority. Turning your two week job into a six week job is their only priority.

Do you speak Spanish? If so, go to the 7-11 and get a couple guys with bldg experience and get your job hammered out in a week and don't be strung out by everyone's delays. Sorry to sound cruel but what's best for you is what you should be worried about.

Another point, if your roof is not ready to put on the rubber, consider a light tube above each tank, it's funny how much sunlight speeds photosynthesis and coral reproduction. In the summer you can use that light without the cooling bill from air conditioning because all your MH lights will cause temps to soar. I don't know what summer humidity levels are in Illinois, but consider misting devices and swamp cooler evaporation from your ceiling. Your room will already be at full humidity so they will cool without much drawback. Pumping a few gallons through misters at 1 cent per gallon is a lot cheaper than electric air conditioning. you probably know that it takes one btu to cool a quart of water one degree F, but changing liquid water into vapor absorbs 80 btus.

Take a hard look at your elec chills, because that will be your biggest expense after your time. Do everything possible to cut that expense. In my 3,000 gallon system I put the sump and Refugium at the same level as the tank. This saves a pump from lifting 3,000 gallons up 3 or 4' of head between sump and tanks x times per hour. That's not lifting 12 tons of water up 4', which saves a lot of electricity. You could save similarly for water lifting even if you don't have a sump.

Also, consider placing all your electronics and elec equipment in one corner of your setup so you can clean the rest with a garden hose. Amazing how much labor a clean shop can save you.

Anyway, take this advice with a grain of salt if you wish. It's apparent that you've done a lot of planning and you know what's best for you. I wish your success. If you find my crusty advice of value, I'll make you send me some of those bright green mushroom corals as a consultants fee!

 

[dave willmore]

Okay, one more piece of unsolicited advice, I just can't resist once I get up on that proverbial soap box!

What you've spent up to now is called historic/sunk cost. It's gone. But from this point forward, I advise you to consider trading your livestock to reef people for everything -- electrical work, hand labor, painting, carpentry, plumbing, HVAC, pipe and parts, epoxy, fittings, everything you can think of. There are dozens of skilled workers within driving distance to you who would be happy to trade to better their reef. Because they are passionate about what you are doing they may even be more efficient than your local guys. At the very least, you can trade $100 of frags to them which would only have wholesaled at $60, and on which your cost may only have been $30. Where else could you get $100 of labor for $30?

OK, I'll shut up now. You didn't ask for this advice and you certainly don't have to take it.

 

[jimmy frag]

vary good advice Dave. But after reading over the previous posts there seems to be more concerns or problems than just the weather. Contractors that have been hired do not show up. the plumbing was going in (as we speak) but its not done. allways seems to be something holding up the start of the job never mind any progress

 

[dave willmore]

Jimmy, I'm sure you're right because you've followed the thread more closely than I have. I just skimmed it.

But one contractor's failure to show up just opens a door to a reefer who knows plumbing to get a whole bunch of nice frags in exchange for showing up on a saturday. I've never worked in Illinois, but the plumbing permit is typically in the name of the owner, not the contractor. Even if it's pulled in the name of the contractor, the owner has the right to terminate a contract, change contractors or do the work himself. As long as the job passes inspection, the county doesn't care who did the work. And as we reefers all know, plumbing isn't rocket science, or we wouldn't be so good at it.

 

[jimmy frag]

i agree. every LFS around us has 2-3 people that hang out and do the odd chore for a free frag. i do wish him the best of luck

 

[FrankMcD]

Will work for coral? It is a great motivator for some people.

 

[chewitback]

not a bad idea (bartering coral for labor). however, i will still wait until things warm up, and the loan is paid in full before i take out the loan once again and proceed with the roof, insulation, floor epoxy, etc.

 

[dave willmore]

If the operation in your friends basement can pay off your loan through the winter I take my hat off to you and your propagation abilities.

Again, sorry for being a noodge, but more unsolicited advice. If there is electricity in your building, cold weather is the perfect time to do lots of indoor work. Rent a concrete saw (and dust masks) to cut a channel in the floor for your drain pipes. Otherwise they will be on top of the floor and you will be tripping over them constantly. Either that or put a new plywood floor 6" above the old one so your pipes can be run underneath. You may think that stepping over a few pipes is no big deal, but trust me you will curse that oversight forever. A smooth floor allows dollies and wheeled buckets to move back and forth and you will be thankful. I will send a pic of my greenhouse subfloor, where I ran 4 extra pipes to each of 6 sumps. Thrity pipes running everywhere, it looks like a bowl of spaghetti.

Now is a good time to heavily insulate your interior walls. I suggest 2" styrofoam sheets on 2' or 4' centers against your brick wall, then glue and screw plastic panels called FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) to the treated 2 by 3 treated studs. Both the styrofoam and FRP are waterproof and can be washed down with a garden hose. This is so much cheaper than ripping out some other product in a few years and doing it right.

The garden hose brings me to the next point. Put a floor drain at the lowest point of your floor. If your original floor is perfectly level, pour an additional 2" of concrete over the old floor (to cover all the concrete channels which you've cut for pipes) and slope the new concrete topping toward the floor drain(s). The use of a garden hose for cleanup cannot be overestimated. And for that matter, reconsider an epoxy floor, it can be quite slippery compared to concrete or the grout joints of tile.

Also, when you cut the channels for drain pipes make the cut at least 5" wide, so a trenching shovel has the width to remove the gravel and dirt below the floor. Put in your drain pipe, but please take this opportunity to put in everything else you might ever need. Extra pipes, wire, extra tubing, plastic conduit, fiber optic? (joke). Anything you can imagine you might possibly want for future upgrades. It is SOOOO much cheaper to lay extra pipe now than to need it later and cut the floor again.

OK, I'll stop preaching again. If this helps you, my consultants fee is now an entire box of frags. So take the advice but don't admit to it! But please put the cold weather to good use and do all your inside work this winter. And let some reef addicts come help you. Especially with concrete cutting, that is a very messy job.

Dave

 

[dave willmore]

Okay, even more unsolicited advice from the preacher. Sorry about that.

Your building will be at 100% humidity, which means it will be physically raining inside your fish room, especially in the winter. String lumber across your roof so you have a sloped ceiling toward the outside wall to save cold water drops from dripping onto your neck.

More importantly, please put all your electrical equipment in a special dry area. This area could be in a special room outside the building, a special small office within the building, even through the wall into the building next door. But you don't want your elec panel, all your switches and equipment, your computer, arduinos, etc. getting rained on. That is how humid your building will be.

Sorry for another lecture.

 

[chewitback]

Dave you actually read any of this thread?

 

[dave willmore]

I wouldn't exactly use the word "read" in the "traditional" sense, which implies that I concentrated on the text and understood it. I skimmed it at 100 mph and then promptly forgot half of what I had skimmed. Then I tried to make a positive contribution in my own way, which is sometimes too blunt, direct, or downright gruffy.

If any of it offends you let me know and I will apologize and delete any redundant part of my posts on any subject that had already been answered a hundred posts prior.

Not only didn't I mean to offend you, in fact I do the same thing. I have a build thread for my greenhouse that is 15 or 20 pages long and whenever someone makes a redundant comment, I feel like saying "hey buddy, don't you remember back on page 8 when this was already answered?". But the better part of me answers the question again.

So you may delete my posts if they only show my incomplete grasp of your courageous project. I was just kidding about you owing me frags. You don't owe me anything but a deletion if you think I've junked up your thread. And if you prefer keeping the parts that are on point, just let me know what other parts you want omitted and I will edit them out.

In any case, good luck on a worthwile project. You deserve to have things break in your favor.

 

[jimmy frag]

Dave, you are too funny. if we lived close i would be on my way over with a case of beer. Jimmy

 

[jimmy frag]

not a bad idea (bartering coral for labor). however, i will still wait until things warm up, and the loan is paid in full before i take out the loan once again and proceed with the roof, insulation, floor epoxy, etc.

what did you spend the money on from the first loan. from what i read, you have only power washed the garage

 

[chewitback]

Dave, I will admit at first i was frustrated with your comments as they seemed to me like you hadn't read anything and were simply giving unwarranted/redundant advice, then i thought about it, and realized that i started this thread with the intent to discuss ideas, both mine and others', about what needs to be done to do this right. Then i realized maybe it isn't that you haven't read it, but perhaps i haven't conveyed my plans in enough detail to communicate what really has happened. Even as I write this, i just received an e-mail from reef central with your response. No, you are not offending me, and i don't wish anything to be deleted. That is what this thread is about; sharing ideas. Now wether your ideas are applicable or already taken care of is a different story, but that doesn't matter much to me. Its information that is useful -- if not for me, perhaps for others that are reading this for ideas on planning their own propagation systems. For that, I thank you, because it is the sharing of information that is the basis of this thread.

 

[chewitback]

Jimmy, the first loan was $8k. $1,900+ went to hooking up my sewer system and having it approved by the city, etc. I then removed 2 doors in the main building, along with two windows and replaced them with insulated versions and had the work done so there were no drafts (~$800 for doors, windows, caulk, insulation around the frames, etc. another $200 or so in hours spent). $400 was the total cost for installing waterproof tarps across the roof and starting the needed repairs on the roof that will commence in the spring. that includes cutting a narrow inlay into the brick that stands up around the roof itself for the rubber roof to be seamed into and for the tarps to be sealed together so i don't get any water damage on the wooden part of the roof/ceiling while I wait things out through the winter. I also purchased the two 1500 gallon cisterns (which will hold my freshwater and saltwater reserves) at around $300 each, plus the costs of gas and renting the trailer to pick them each up (each was around 3 hours away) giving the total cost both of those together about $850. The tuck pointing was inexpensive because i pressure washed the walls and did the work myself($10 in gas for the washer, $40 in quick drying patching concrete designed for tuck pointing, and maybe another $5 or 10 in confectionary icing bags to squeeze it all into the cracks). I also purchased those 6 totes, which cost only $45 a piece, but it also took $100 in renting the truck and gas to pick them up ($370 total). $300 for a good 10ft fiberglass and aluminum ladder to do the ceiling work and get on the roof. The back garage door that was rotting away (and i didn't want in the first place) so that was removed, and the space was sealed off with wood framing, insulation, and plastic coating it so its ready. There was an old junked doorway next to that that i did the same thing with. The low bay metal halide lamps i purchased I got 6 of for $15 a piece and 2 for $20 each, plus $20 for 4 extra bulbs which after $50 in gas to pick them up from the chicago area ran me $200 total. Several hundred dollars (i think a little over $200) went into doing some required basic electrical work for the main building so a stove could be hooked up. not to mention a separate circuit breaker panel for the garage that is placed in my mud room (yes, dave, away from the garage where all the moisture will be). I don't recall the cost on that off hand, but it wasn't cheap. Also some of the other basic tools and equipment that were used had to be purchased (everything from duct tape, to plastic tarping, to power tools) which together ran more than a few hundred dollars. Oh, and there was buying the overhead insulated fiberglass garage door ($700) that will replace the old double doors that open up to the main road access. What little was left (around $1000) went right back into paying the loan, but since I took out the loan in 2 halves, there really wasn't much interest accrued on that last $1000 so it was worth accruing the $25 in interest on it and having that financial cushion. You could say I have done a little more than pressure wash a garage thus far

 

[chewitback]

double post.

 

[Jeremy Blaze]

Sorry if its been mentioned, do you own the building?

 

[chewitback]

@dave, to expunge on what im working with right now, and my plan, imagine a 18.5ft by 52ft space. The floor is a single cement slab that descends from one side to the other exactly 2 inches over the entirety of the 52 feet. The slab is evidently around 7-8 inches thick. On the lower side, the slab has a mild cone-shape indentation that literally goes into the crawl space of the main building, which is where the drain used to be (i assume) from when it was a mechanic's garage/carwash/car dealership through years past. At first i thought that would be unusable, but after a little more investigation its really the right way to go, i just need to have the plumbing redone since a drainpipe doesnt even exist there anymore (thanks to the previous owner(s). As for piping, all pipes will wrap around the perimeter of the walls, which the totes (im not using conventional aquariums) will be set along. There are two cisterns that will act as reservoirs that will be connected to the piping for freshwater and saltwater, respectively. The air piping and bellows for the air line will be set farther up, around 8ft above the floor and air lines will drop down to each tank, as needed. (That reminds me Jimmy, chalk up another $350 for the linear air pump and brass fittings for the air lines... and the gas used to pick it all up from the guy who sold it to me) So the piping more or less will fit around in a U shape in the garage, leaving the garage door access and my side door completely devoid of plumbing, wires, etc. The center of the garage will house my work space. There is also a large exhaust fan going outside, opposite to the garage door, so in the summer, i just flip that on to control air flow and cool via evaporation. I also have acquired a large stand fan that pushes an enormous amount of air for extra flow ($30). Each tote will be fitted with auto top-offs that can be turned on or off independently for both freshwater or saltwater (for evaporation or refilling a tote after i harvest). The advantage of using these totes with my slab floor is that they have a frame that makes them able to be pallet-jacked or even forklifted, so they are mobile, even when full. Everything connecting to them is via plastic tubing with quick connects, so they can be shifted around with little trouble. I know it seems like a lot of weight, but i worked at an orchard and I would move 2 bins of apples stacked on each-other at a time (weighing more than 850 a piece) in this manner, so it can be done. Filtration, aeration, and circulation will all be done with the air lifts, and each tote will have a 400W metal halide over it. The epoxy has a fine grit that keeps it from being slippery when wet, much more so than any tile or the cement floor. The walls, ceiling, etc will all be covered with a vapor barrier (plastic sheeting) which of course can be hosed down on a whim. I'm using the same material that is installed in restaurant kitchens as it is inexpensive, safe, reflects light very well, and easily cleaned.
I am sure this probably is springing up even more questions and/or ideas for you now, but hopefully it also gives you a better idea of what im planning and working with. Sorry P.S. for the ramshackle of information jumbled all into this; i just described it as it is in my head and what's already been put into place.

 

[chewitback]

Sorry if its been mentioned, do you own the building?

Yes.

 

[dave willmore]

@dave, to expunge on what im working with right now, and my plan, imagine a 18.5ft by 52ft space. The floor is a single cement slab that descends from one side to the other exactly 2 inches over the entirety of the 52 feet. The slab is evidently around 7-8 inches thick. On the lower side, the slab has a mild cone-shape indentation that literally goes into the crawl space of the main building, which is where the drain used to be (i assume) from when it was a mechanic's garage/carwash/car dealership through years past. At first i thought that would be unusable, but after a little more investigation its really the right way to go, i just need to have the plumbing redone since a drainpipe doesnt even exist there anymore (thanks to the previous owner(s).

Does this mean there is/was a grate covering a trench so all the old shop oil and dirty water was collected along the entire 50' length. If so, this is indeed good news.

As for piping, all pipes will wrap around the perimeter of the walls, which the totes (im not using conventional aquariums) will be set along.

Does this mean that the drain pipe will be 12" above the floor on the first tank and at floor level at the last tank and that you will have a P-trap into which each tank will drain?

There are two cisterns that will act as reservoirs that will be connected to the piping for freshwater and saltwater, respectively. The air piping and bellows for the air line will be set farther up, around 8ft above the floor and air lines will drop down to each tank, as needed. (That reminds me Jimmy, chalk up another $350 for the linear air pump and brass fittings for the air lines... and the gas used to pick it all up from the guy who sold it to me) So the piping more or less will fit around in a U shape in the garage, leaving the garage door access and my side door completely devoid of plumbing, wires, etc. The center of the garage will house my work space. There is also a large exhaust fan going outside, opposite to the garage door, so in the summer, i just flip that on to control air flow and cool via evaporation.

how hot are your summers? i'm in the DC area and August is usually 95F in the day and 85F at night, with 90% humidity and thundershowers on many afternoons. If your Illinois weather is similar, your cooling needs will be a lot higher than the mentioned fan, especially with 400 watt MH lights. I'm sure you have a cooling system in mind but I haven't been able to figure it out so far. Keep in mind a water to water heat exchange if you don't already have a system.

I also have acquired a large stand fan that pushes an enormous amount of air for extra flow ($30). Each tote will be fitted with auto top-offs that can be turned on or off independently for both freshwater or saltwater (for evaporation or refilling a tote after i harvest). The advantage of using these totes with my slab floor is that they have a frame that makes them able to be pallet-jacked or even forklifted, so they are mobile, even when full. Everything connecting to them is via plastic tubing with quick connects, so they can be shifted around with little trouble. I know it seems like a lot of weight, but i worked at an orchard and I would move 2 bins of apples stacked on each-other at a time (weighing more than 850 a piece) in this manner, so it can be done.

Are these the 275 gallon white polyethylene totes I'm thinking of? They typically are used for food products and are available cheap, I may not have the right product. As you know, water weighs 8 lbs/gallon so your forklift will need to carry a ton and a quarter. I have a skidsteer that carries two tons, but it is one of the bigger skidsteers at 90 horsepower. I have never used pallet jacks if that's what you are using and don't know if they will move 2,400 lbs. You've probably already figured that out. I don't really see the need to move totes, I would have guessed that once in place they wouldn't move much. Also if these are the totes I'm thinking of they are steel framed which will corrode quickly.

Filtration, aeration, and circulation will all be done with the air lifts, and each tote will have a 400W metal halide over it. The epoxy has a fine grit that keeps it from being slippery when wet, much more so than any tile or the cement floor. The walls, ceiling, etc will all be covered with a vapor barrier (plastic sheeting) which of course can be hosed down on a whim. I'm using the same material that is installed in restaurant kitchens as it is inexpensive, safe, reflects light very well, and easily cleaned.

That's good. I'm not a big fan of vapor barrier as the final layer because I think it's too flimsy to handle all the things life throws at it, but if its used in commercial kitchens it must do the job. When you say vapor barrier, some kind of 1 mil plastic comes to mind which will start to tear if you so much as breath on it. Your barrier must be stronger than this. I like the FRP because it is reflective white on the finish side, but it usually costs about $1 per square foot.

I am sure this probably is springing up even more questions and/or ideas for you now, but hopefully it also gives you a better idea of what im planning and working with. Sorry P.S. for the ramshackle of information jumbled all into this; i just described it as it is in my head and what's already been put into place.

Your reply can't be too much more ramshackle than mine. How will your electrical components be prepared for indoor rain during the winter?