Stopped Dosing Kalk...

[oneradtek202]

So everyone knows of my issues with my pump failing and such. well since my whole precipitation issue , i have learned some more about chemistry of sea water.


For some reason , whether it being that not enough flow in my sump, too much kalk in at once, or just some other factor, it has precipitated out of solution ever since i have been using it. That is why my pump fails so frequently , because i have re-plumbed the piping, and everything but the only thing that gets the pump going without issues for a week or so, is a cleaning of the impeller. well, i am going to do another test. Im going to clean my impeller, and start not using kalk ( i dont think it made much of a difference in my tank anyway) and keep checking my parameters in case it makes that big of a difference. and see if i still have issue with my pump. it precipitated soo quickly.


The whole sump is precipitate, white chunky stuff everywhere. so that is my new direction with my tank. just dosing with 2 part solution. i think this will be my fix! heres hoping.:thumbsup:

 

[pascal32]

Hope things work out. Do you have your dosing pumps running? To feed mine I drilled a hole in the 1 gallon brs jug and put some hard line in. Keeps things pretty closed off, but enough air escapes to print collapsing the jugs.

Personally, I was going to top off with kalk- till I got to thinking, evap rates change drastically throughout the year which means dosing would swing. With 2 part the dosing is consistent.

 

[Dave VG]

Dosing kalk can make a mess of things for sure. I had it accumulate all over everything in the form of little white dots. I’m going to try and stay away from it with the new tank. Just a heads up for ya. As I’m sure you know dosing kalk at night keeps the PH up during those hours and into the day. Watch for a PH swings when you stop dosing.

 

[tmz]

I think 2 part is fine.
Overdosing kalk ,two part or both can cause precipitation.So can a calcium reactor but it's less likely since the effluent is low ph.Alaklinity and ph are related with precipitation occuring at lower levels of alkalinity when ph is very high.

Personally, limewater dosing(kalk) is my strong preference and is adequate to meet all the needs of my sps . These are some points of limewater to consider.:

It's self purifying; it's high ph 12.4 or so at full saturation causes impurities such as metals and other contaminants to fall out of solution to the slurry at the bottom of the container, leaving only the pure calcium hydroxide for dosing.
Impurities in 2 part, though likely insignificant, go in with the dose. 2 part also adds chloride via calcium chloride which can effect levels over the long run.
Dissolved calcium carbonate from a calcium reactor will add whatever happens to be trapped in the media you choose to use. Corals and other calcareous organisms stash PO4 , toxins including metals ,etc in the skeletal mass. When the media is dissolved whatever is stored in in is released.
Kalk may likely precipitate some PO4
Kalk is relatively inexpensive and easy to dose from a still reservoir with a single dosing pump. It is important to spread the dosing out over the longest period of time possible to avoid ph spikes ; 24/7 as top off being optimal.
It provides a balanced dose of calcium and carbonate.
Many prefer 2 part . Both kalk and 2 part are very good and the differences are not game breakers but give an advantage to kalk ,in my opinion aand experience.

Precipitation comes from dosing too much alkalinity, particularly at one time. Kalk produces carbonate alkainity as the hydroxide binds with CO2. 2 part also provides carbonate alkalinity as does a calcium reactor. By using CO2 kalk does increase ph but only a little if dosed slowly. In my case I dose some vinegar/vodka for nutrient control which adds some CO2 , so the kalk is a good offset.

BTW That white gunk in your sump will chip off over time and plague your pumps venturis etc. I dose mine via liter meter 3 with a daily dose of about 4.5 gallons of kalk as top off spread out in 150 equal increments over 24 hours without any precipitation issues.

 

[Gravesj1s]

Yeah I hope it works out for you.Ive also, had to spend some time in the chemistry department.I know I haven't mentioned it but I believe I have asimilar situation.I should have a much better idea this coming week on why limewater additions have not been adequate for my tank.

With Blurrys insight on the RKE controller (thanks guy)and the ABC reef crew great pricing , I finally got a controller the other day.Measuring PH in real time should finally confirm what I have long suspected to be my main issue.Some can maintain Ca & Alk with limewater additions alone but many even lightly stocked tanks cannot.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

the problem here isn't overdosing of kalkwasser-

(if anything) it's the overdosing of liquid two part

 

[acdraindrps]

Kalk is for losers anyway.

:spin2:

 

[tmz]

Only if you try to smoke it:eek1::wildone::worried:

 

[Johnny C]

:smokin:

Gary M, that one's for you!


:lolspin:

 

[Dave VG]

Hmmm good post Tom it's comming back to me why i started using kalk in the first place.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

easy to gloss over with no reply but.....

easy to gloss over with no reply but.....

the problem here isn't overdosing of kalkwasser-

(if anything) it's the overdosing of liquid two part

I wasn't being facetious with my post.
IMO/IME nothing could be easier than using kalkwasser instead of RO water for topoff.
Tom posted many of the reasons limewater should be used. Straight RO water will not help to boost Ca, alk or pH and (in fact) may help to drive some of those parameters downwards. Additionally, you can only saturate RO water with so much kalkwasser so you can't over dose too much powder into the water as it will precipitate out. Simply use limewater instead of RO water and adjust liquid two part additives from there. Demands will vary from system to system so you'll have to test the water to find out exactly how much two part to dose. If your pH (alone) is too high (rarely, if ever the case) that's when you should consider backing off limewater additions.

 

[tmz]

I should have a much better idea this coming week on why limewater additions have not been adequate for my tank.

I'd like to understand some of the variables beyond the actual amount dosed. So please let me know what you find out.
I know many report kalk alone won't support an sps tank but it does for me with very minor additions of baking soda and then only to make up for lost time when the kalk dosing pump is off during refilling of the reservoir. . When I took off my calcium reactor about 2 yrs ago, which had been running alongside limewater dosing, I was surprised that kalk alone was meeting all of the systems needs keeping kh pretty consistently at 9.5.It had been running aournd 12 to 13 dkh with both the calcium reactor and limewater in play. I also use coralife salt which is high in calcium and magnesium but relatively low in alkalinity

 

[Gravesj1s]

Ok get back this tonight still at work

 

[Gravesj1s]

I should have a much better idea this coming week on why limewater additions have not been adequate for my tank.

I'd like to understand some of the variables beyond the actual amount dosed. So please let me know what you find out.
I know many report kalk alone won't support an sps tank but it does for me with very minor additions of baking soda and then only to make up for lost time when the kalk dosing pump is off during refilling of the reservoir. . When I took off my calcium reactor about 2 yrs ago, which had been running alongside limewater dosing, I was surprised that kalk alone was meeting all of the systems needs keeping kh pretty consistently at 9.5.It had been running aournd 12 to 13 dkh with both the calcium reactor and limewater in play. I also use coralife salt which is high in calcium and magnesium but relatively low in alkalinity

~Tmz, I'm trying this out in bold,I just think its easier to read and tell who typed what.I just hope it works.
Anyway ,I'd be jumping ahead to say much but I did open my mouth ,so,I guess to followup with that.
The area of this topic I am questioning the most is ,limewater itself being balanced adds 1 part Ca. 2 parts alk.In calcification the ratio is same ,meaning ,thats exactly what proportions are layed down to build skeletal structures.(CaCo3)So with that being said,I'm wondering why the drop in Ca/Alk is not linear?
I have to add sodium bicarbonate(unbaked baking soda as I see it refered to ) regularly to my tank despite having tried afew different ways of using limewater additions for all makeup water .I would consider my tank to be very light demanding from what many here maintain.Ca hovers consistiently 480-500 ppm ,Alk is the issue for me despite using a kalkreactor I still find it difficult to maintain near a KH of 8 for more than 2 days.I've shut the reactor off ,the stirrer part anyway.Using an aqualifter pump, RO/DI holding vat to draw makeup water, running that through the kalkreactor (with the stirrer turned off )and allowing natural dissoution within the reactor ,dripped into my sump over a 24hr period still would not maintain an acceptable level for Kh.I'm currently evaporating about a gal aday,drip rate guesstimate 1:5 sec.

Other negatives are similar to what oneradtec made note of but know where near as much precipant buildup in the pump or sump.

My biggest drawback was using a testkit for ph.I believe having a controller and reading Ph in reading in realtime is going to be the gamebreaker.

Some other thoughts and things I cant rule out yet, maybe my sump is to small water volume wise.That is where Im dripping the limewater and thinking the Ph is getting to high but It would seem as if I would also be seeing a drop in Ca not just the alk.
..and /or my alk is being lost to neutralizing acids(i.e.-nitric acid or something similar)I don't dont get high N03 readings though atleast per the salifert kit.It would appear more likely to me if I did so not real sure about that.I've never had a reading above 10ppm.and currently getting a 0 reading.

Lastly,I did read one of Randy Holmes responses where he notes many tanks will not be able to maintain Ca/alk levels with limewater additions alone ,in the same response he makes reference to his own softcoral tank having no sps or much in the way of caco3 demand and is unable to meet the needs with limewater alone.

 

[Gravesj1s]

I 've used Reefcrystals and switched to instant ocean a few months ago.I dont think it has much to do with my salt mix from what I can tell.Ialso, wanted to add I disconnected my Gfo reactor after the last kalk discussion, thinking that may be contributing to alk loss.It had no noticable effect.
Still gota get the ph probe hooked up.Working on it today,thinking a week should be plenty to get a better idea on what might be happening.

 

[tmz]

Well, dissolved calcium carbonate via calcium reactor , two part( calcium chloride and carbonate/bicarbonate) when dosed according to manufacturer's recommendation or the recipes , and kalk(calcium hydroxide) deliver the same proportions of calcium and alkalinity. For every 20ppm calcium used in forming calcium carbonate crystals , 1 meq/l(2.8) of carbonate alkalinity is used. So no matter which method(s) you use and you can use any one, two or all three , the alkalinity is likely to deplete more significantly and quickly in an aquarium. In the sea the supply is endless but not in a tank with it's density of calcareous organisms.

Many do report that kalk alone can't support the alkalinity in sps dominant tanks since the amount you can dose is limited by top off and ph. Some add vinegar to the kalk reservoir which allows up to about a 36% increase in the amount of kalk the water will hold. I don't and use only about 1 3/4 tsps per gallon, a little less than full sturation which is 2tbsps per gallon without vinegar. With vinegar I could go as high as 2.72 tsps per gallon.

Some need frequent additions of carbonate/ bicarbonate even with two part or calcium reactor dosing or kalk dosing. It's not the case in my system even with a relatively low alklainity salt mix( Coralife checks in at about 9dkh).Maybe it's coraline. I do have coraline but not excessive amounts. Perhaps the carbon dosing( more CO2) adds to the effficiency of the kalk and/or the bacteria limit coraline,a big consumer of alkainity, formation at least ; my rocks are nicely speckled and my glass has spots of coraline but certainly not large quantities..

 

[Gravesj1s]

Well, dissolved calcium carbonate via calcium reactor , two part( calcium chloride and carbonate/bicarbonate) when dosed according to manufacturer's recommendation or the recipes , and kalk(calcium hydroxide) deliver the same proportions of calcium and alkalinity. For every 20ppm calcium used in forming calcium carbonate crystals , 1 meq/l(2.8) of carbonate alkalinity is used. So no matter which method(s) you use and you can use any one, two or all three , the alkalinity is likely to deplete more significantly and quickly in an aquarium. In the sea the supply is endless but not in a tank with it's density of calcareous organisms.

Tmz,Hi .Yes I agree they do appear to deliver the correct proportions.I just think that it maybe less of a chore to use the 2 part and might go as far as to say it can have an advantage over kalkwasser.I.e.- I can add more or less of part 2 matching my tanks demand and be done with it. My evaportion fluctuates less in the summer than in the winter ,we have a fireplace in the same room ,so it has been pretty troublesome for me to figure out how much kalkwasser I should be using in my mix.When the evaporation rate lessens again Im struggling with figuring the correct amount .This ,has been a real issue for me.With the 2part it I'm no longer at the mercy of evaporation ,so I dont think I would be having the same problem.

I have always favored the use of kalkwasser over any other means for the reasons you've pointed out in this thread.Using it almost exclusively with every tank I have owned with occasional sodium bicarbonate/ CaCl additions.Works very well.My current tank ,for whatever reason it just isn't working very well.

Many do report that kalk alone can't support the alkalinity in sps dominant tanks since the amount you can dose is limited by top off and ph. Some add vinegar to the kalk reservoir which allows up to about a 36% increase in the amount of kalk the water will hold. I don't and use only about 1 3/4 tsps per gallon, a little less than full sturation which is 2tbsps per gallon without vinegar. With vinegar I could go as high as 2.72 tsps per gallon.

Some need frequent additions of carbonate/ bicarbonate even with two part or calcium reactor dosing or kalk dosing. It's not the case in my system even with a relatively low alklainity salt mix( Coralife checks in at about 9dkh).Maybe it's coraline. I do have coraline but not excessive amounts. Perhaps the carbon dosing( more CO2) adds to the effficiency of the kalk and/or the bacteria limit coraline,a big consumer of alkainity, formation at least ; my rocks are nicely speckled and my glass has spots of coraline but certainly not large quantities..

Thanks again for your time here in discussing and pointing out your insights.I find your responses to be very informative and helpful with the chem stuff.

 

[oneradtek202]

for some reason my kalk ATO would precipitate out of solution in my sump. maybe i was dosing it wrong? i would mix 5-6 tsp of kalk with 5 gal of RO water and have a maxi jet sitting an inch or so off the bottom of my bucket hooked up to my ATO. since stopping kalk a few days ago, there has been no pump issues what so ever. so far all of my levels have stayed perfect too.

alk-9
ca-400

 

[tmz]

Two part dosing is a fine way to go if it's more convenient for you and your routine.Many folks run very successful reefs with it.

Tmz,Hi .Yes I agree they do appear to deliver the correct proportions.I just think that it maybe less of a chore to use the 2 part and might go as far as to say it can have an advantage over kalkwasser.I.e.- I can add more or less of part 2 matching my tanks demand and be done with it. My evaportion fluctuates less in the summer than in the winter ,we have a fireplace in the same room ,so it has been pretty troublesome for me to figure out how much kalkwasser I should be using in my mix.When the evaporation rate lessens again Im struggling with figuring the correct amount .This ,has been a real issue for me.

Just FYI:
Yes you can up the proportion of alk or calcium independently with two part. But you can simply supplenet kalk with either part as well. Reducing the amount of kalk you add to the reservoir to compensate for the additions.

Evaporation is a variable. It's relatively easy math to figure a lower/higher saturation of kalk in a still dosing reservoir when you increase reduce the volume of kalkwasser used for top off. As an example I have less evaporation in the summer,so I decrease the amount of water my liter meter will dose daily from roughly 4.5 gallons(18 liters) to 16 liters(4 gallons) and increase the amount of kalk powder I add to the still reservoir accordingly, ie by 12.5%4.5 divided by 4 =1.125. So if I'm using 1.75tsps per gallon in the winter ,I increase it to 1.75x1.125=1.97 or roughly 2 tsps per gallon for the summer months.

Brandon ,many folks have difficultly with ato applications for kalk and neilsen reactor applications because both involve ongoing water movement which stirs up the kalk and often results in dosing cloudy water which contains undissoved kalk thus leading to inconsistent dosing levels and overdosing . With a still reservoir application those problems are avoided and only clear kalkwasser is dosed.

Good luck to you both. I'm sure you can do fine with two part but for me kalk has been the best method and I've tried all three over the years.

 

[tmz]

Brandon, reread your post ,perhaps the maxi jet was too powerful and stirrred the bottom when dosing or dosed too much at one time. A peristaltic pump drawing from still reservoir with the intake tube about 2 inches off the bottom works very well without turbulence as does a gravity fed drip set up.