Success with "living with" AEFW - potential predator or different variety of AEFW?

[mcliffy2]

Success with "living with" AEFW - potential predator or different variety of AEFW?

An initial disclaimer: please do not turn this into a debate over the merits of trading from an AEFW tank (I think we can all agree that disclosure is a must). I want to focus on what allows some to succeed and have a beautiful, thriving tank by just basting (or even just letting the AEFW go), and see if some trends can be identified, since IME, having AEFW has not been a big deal (see the before and after shots below).

The reports on "living with" AEFW (i.e. just basting them off periodically) seem to vary drastically. Some report that they have completely eradicated them by basting (ReefBum's gorgeous TOTM comes to mind), while others report that they are able to keep them in check enough that their system still thrives (I fall in this category), while others report that even with basting the problem got out of control and acros were being killed off.

Now having been someone who has "lived" with AEFW for almost a year, I think its safe to say, in at least some cases, you can be successful despite having AEFW in your system. Seeing the variations in success using basting, however, I think there may be more at play than just basting. I have two theories personally, as to why AEFW have not been a big deal in my tank:

1. Potential AEFW Predator -- I have a Christmas wrasse that I believe may keep AEFW in check, keeping their population to a low enough level that corals grow faster than AEFW can eat them.

2. Different species of AEFW -- I have noticed that my AEFW don't go after my valida and nana, as others commonly report, and instead prefer millies and prostatas.

In effort to try and identify whether either of the above plays a role, it would be helpful to take a survey of those who have attempted the basting method. If you have please post the following info:

(1) your experience with basting (successful or no?)

(2) your fish list (include all for sake of completeness)

(3) corals upon which you observed the most AEFW damage

I'll start:

(1) Experience (described above)

(2)
Christmas wrasse
Emperor angel
regal angel
swallowtail angel
mata tang
purple tang
bimac anthias
bicolor anthias
target mandarin
green chromis
bangaii cardinals
blue throat trigger
lawnmower blenny
percula clown pair
neon gobies

(3) mine love millies and prostatas, and also hit my A. Aculeus (flashlight acro) and A. Austera. They don't seem to hit up my valida or nana, and I am 99% they have never touched my staghorns.

As evidence that somewhat long term success is possible without any drastic QT and iodine dips, here is the tank as of Sep 08 (AEFW discovered in Aug 08):

And here is the tank as of June 09:

 

[SunnyX]

I dont have much to add but wanted to say nice growth! :thumbsup:

I guess the same thing could be said about Red bugs. I had them for years in my old setup and didn't even know it. Only after people started freaking out about them here did I take a closer look at my tank and older photos. Sure enough I had them yet it didn't harm my coloration or growth. Even won TOTM with red bugs

Please nobody take this the wrong wayguys/gals, but I believe that sometimes these pests can be made into scapegoats. Some people may not have been taking good enough care of their corals and the red bugs/AEFW pushed the corals over the edge.

I am sure that there is a limiting factor somewhere as to why some systems crash from AEFW while others live and prosper through it.

From what I have seen, most people who have AEFW along with wrasses and a steady regiment of basteing seem to live through it.

Another thing to consider as Mike pointed out above is that there may be multiple forms of AEFW. Around the boards I have seen regular,red,small, large,orange, and brown AEFW.

Hopefully you guys can shed some light on this topic for those of use who will inevitably run into this problem down the road.
If you are routinely purchasing and trading new corals you will most likely get AEFW.

 

[mcliffy2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15244186#post15244186 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by SunnyX
I dont have much to add but wanted to say nice growth! :thumbsup:

I guess the same thing could be said about Red bugs. I had them for years in my old setup and didn't even know it. Only after people started freaking out about them here did I take a closer look at my tank and older photos. Sure enough I had them yet it didn't harm my coloration or growth. Even won TOTM with red bugs

Please nobody take this the wrong wayguys/gals, but I believe that sometimes these pests can be made into scapegoats. Some people may not have been taking good enough care of their corals and the red bugs/AEFW pushed the corals over the edge.

I am sure that there is a limiting factor somewhere as to why some systems crash from AEFW while others live and prosper through it.

From what I have seen, most people who have AEFW along with wrasses and a steady regiment of basteing seem to live through it.

Another thing to consider as Mike pointed out above is that there may be multiple forms of AEFW. Around the boards I have seen regular,red,small, large,orange, and brown AEFW.

Hopefully you guys can shed some light on this topic for those of use who will inevitably run into this problem down the road.
If you are routinely purchasing and trading new corals you will most likely get AEFW.

Thanks Sunny. I tend to agree that a lot of times the QTing and harsh dips will kill many more corals than AEFW. At the same time, I know many top notch reefkeepers who have relayed stories of entire tanks being destroyed by AEFW (this is before dips for AEFW had been discovered), so I'm curious as to why this isn't the case for everyone.

If there are more than one type (a good indicator of which is diet), then it would be nice to be able to tell someone who discovers AEFW, that they have a type that isn't a big deal, just baste your corals every once in a while and you'll be fine, or on the other hand, you've got a type that are a big problem and need QT asap. Even nicer, if my theory that something in my tank is eating AEFW is true, it would be nice to say get a christmas wrasse.

On a related note, I know of a couple other TOTMs that won with AEFW, although I'm not saying who, since they haven't themselves discussed it publicly (most likely because for them, they weren't a big deal, as shown by their TOTM award).

I know there are others out there who have dealt/are dealing with AEFW, and I'm curious to hear their experiences, so lets have more.

 

[SunnyX]

You're right about dipping being harsh. I dipped the most wonderful blue coral I have ever seen and it was dead by the time I finished dipping this morning.

Of well, hopefully I can find another piece as I had not see this coral before and it came in on a shipment from bali I believe.

 

[SERVO]

I know that Sanjay has them in his new tank and is advocating basting. I haven't spoken with him in about a year, but at that time, his tank was doing well with them.

I also know that ChingChai has admitted to having them and his tank is a beast! He has a ton of wrasse and bastes.

Personally, IME, I discovered that I had them and slaved dipping, QTing and repeating. I know that I don't have them currently. I believe that all the work was worth it as I can freely give out coral frags to people in my aquarium club. Additionally, for me, I am to busy and lazy to have to have another daily or weekly maintenance for my tank and it was best to just get rid of them.

I think there are appropriate dips for everything, but wild>mariculture>aquaculture corals have an increased risk to that practice. I prefer fluke tabs, coral revive and TMPCC. Triple coverage!!

As for the corals that were affected
-Milli's
-Valida's
-Nana's
-Prostrata's
-Tricolor from Solomon Islands unknown id
-Yongei

I only had tangs, anemone fish and a royal gramma at the time.

Your tank looks amazing. I'm very impressed that they haven't gone for your Nana's/valida's. If you can be OCD enough about it, I know that there are many successful tanks with these buggers. Providing that you are ethical *you're a patent lawyer! If you were a trial lawyer, I'd worry *, which I can I can tell you are, I see no reason with the appropriate husbandry why you can't continue with your current success.

 

[volcom69]

As far as red bugs i knew i had them when my PE was not very good at all. After i did my first treatment for red bugs my PE was back and better then ever. I had red bugs for a long time and i just got tired of the PE not being there so i finally bit the bullet and dosed interceptor to my tank. Only down fall was losing my shirmp i had for years, but it was worth it and was very easy. As far as AEFW i have never had them (knock on wood), but a very good thread started here mcliffy2 and a very nice tank.

 

[Logzor]

(1) Basting alone is not very effective. The AEFW has a very good grip on the coral. I have found that aiming a maxi-jet 1200 point-blank to the coral is extremely effective. So much to the point that I do not believe AEFW are a big deal at all.

(2) I have witnessed bristleworms eating AEFW eggs. Fish in my tank include Blue Green Chromis, Tomini Tang, Two Barred Rabbitfish, Lyretail Anthias, Orange ORA Clownfish. The Clown and Anthias devour waterborne AEFW. Somtimes the Chromis and Tang will eat them also.

(3) I see them the most on my A. Milliepora, by a long shot! I NEVER see them on my ORA blue bottlebrush (marshal islands?).

 

[ReefBum]

I initially had a very bad infestation and lost several colonies (mostly millies) because they had a stronghold on the affected colonies....that was about a year and a half ago. I have been basting on a weekly basis ever since and I only see them on a rare occasion. I do have 2 Leopard Wrasses so maybe they are helping.....although I don't have any evidence.

Basting works in my eyes but I agree that a tank has to be healthy in other regards to beat them. Below is a recent tank shot.

 

[143gadgets]

Luv ur tank Cliffy!!!

Amazing ReefBum!!!

 

[MACH5]

I as well advocate basting on a regular basis. When I had discovered them I had some colonies heavily encrusted and to tear it all down would have done more harm than good IMO. If you are just starting off with frags then dipping everything may be a better way to go.

My experience with dipping has not been a good one. I lost a few pieces in the process. What's funny is that when my clowns see the baster going in the water they get ready to catch any flat worm that gets dislodged from the corals. Nowadays I only see one or two occasionally. I don't think of AEFW as been a huge deal anymore. And tanks like Reefbum's and Mcliffy2 is certainly proof that you can have a thriving, beautiful system with AEFW.

 

[KafudaFish]

Just remember a good parasite does not kill the host.

Sorry all I got and nice tanks everyone.

 

[Gondore]

Interesting topic mcliffy2.

The growth in your tank is just unbelievable ReefBum. Maybe the AEFW are fertilizing your corals or something.

 

[ReefBum]

Thanks guys. My biggest problem at times are alk swings that cause some bleaching at the base of my corals....along with reduced flow. The AEFW are really not an issue and not worth the worries in my opinion. You just have to keep up with the basting and practice good husbandry and be as consistent as possible with parameters.

 

[jackson6745]

From having a larger SPS tank and having a nano SPS tank with AEFW's I can tell you that smaller frags/corals become overwhelmed with worms much easier than larger corals. Some of the best local tanks that I know of were loaded with AEFW's but the corals were so big that they grew faster than the worms could do damage.

 

[mcliffy2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15250496#post15250496 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by ReefBum
Thanks guys. My biggest problem at times are alk swings that cause some bleaching at the base of my corals....along with reduced flow. The AEFW are really not an issue and not worth the worries in my opinion. You just have to keep up with the basting and practice good husbandry and be as consistent as possible with parameters.

Reefbum - Can you post your fish list and also what types of corals you observed the AEFW favoring?

 

[mcliffy2]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15250687#post15250687 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by jackson6745
From having a larger SPS tank and having a nano SPS tank with AEFW's I can tell you that smaller frags/corals become overwhelmed with worms much easier than larger corals. Some of the best local tanks that I know of were loaded with AEFW's but the corals were so big that they grew faster than the worms could do damage.

I definitely see the logic in this, although interestingly, I haven't personally had any frags killed, although it does seem like some corals take a while to "take off" in my tank. That said I think there is a counterpoint, that just as frags are likely more susceptible to AEFW, frags are also likely more susceptible to dying in a QT process (or at least it would seem, maybe someone has info on this?).

 

[gasman059]

great observation. To be quite honest over the years I've not been afraid of many pests(except nudi's and even those on an established healthy tank with adeqaute predation can be held in place)

Will c god knows I have that experiment currently in my new reef.

 

[Gondore]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=15250872#post15250872 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by mcliffy2
I definitely see the logic in this, although interestingly, I haven't personally had any frags killed, although it does seem like some corals take a while to "take off" in my tank. That said I think there is a counterpoint, that just as frags are likely more susceptible to AEFW, frags are also likely more susceptible to dying in a QT process (or at least it would seem, maybe someone has info on this?).

I had really good success when QTing and dipping my tank. I dipped roughly 30 frags for 8 weeks and didn't lose a single one. I would agree that frags seems more vulnerable to being killed by AEFW then what I grown colony is.

 

[Logzor]

Anyone who turkey bastes:

Many of you state that your rarely see flatworms after weeks of basting on a daily basis. I have had the exact same observation.

I was stunned when I saw a larger number of flatworms fly off of my corals when I hooked up a maxi-jet 1200 and used it point-blank against the corals.

I spend a pretty good amount of time point the maxi-jet on one spot. Sometimes it takes 10-15 seconds for them to finally dislodge.....sometimes longer.

My theory is that AEFW can easily hold on when blown by a turkey baster, hence why you now see very few, but can become easily dislodged with a maxi-jet.

I have no damaged the corals this way, I am nearly rubbing the skeleton with the end of the pump! So far....great results!

So, if you could, I would like to know if you experience the same thing.

 

[mpoletti]

Logzor, I too had similar experiences. I debated the basting method and tried it for a couple weeks, every other day. It gotto the point where I would see them only once every couple of days and then I saw them on a new coral. That is when I went the other route. It was not until then did I really see what corals they were on and how much damage was done. There were some corals that looked perfectly healthy until I really got a good look at them.

The basting method does work in population management. Its will be a great day for this hobby when aefw are looked at like red bugs; no big deal. Until then, debates are great now a days because people are willing to share with the greater community and I remember a time when it was more hush hush.