Suggestions for improving SPS polyp extension

[jlinzmaier]

Through the years I've had varying polyp extension from my SPS. For quite some time I had very little PE then I got my nutrient levels in line and saw a large improvement in PE. Lately some SPS have shown great PE and some have shown little to none. I keep very careful records of what I dose, what I change, when my bulbs were changed, what my water parms are, etc... I keep track of everything, but even being so dilligent with tracking as much as I can I cannot find a correlation between the times I saw improved or decreased polyp ext with anything that had changed or occurred with the system. There also doesn't seem to be any sort of correlation with PE in the more difficult vs the more hardy SPS corals. In fact I seem to have more trouble with the more hardy species of SPS.

I'm not looking for any treatment to my current issues I'm dealing with, but more so looking for some general recommendations that the hard core SPS keepers would suggest for maximizing PE in SPS corals. I'm looking for anything from suggestions for supplements to dose, foods to feed, water params to shoot for, flow suggestions, etc... Anything from very advanced suggestions to very simple and easy suggestions. Just tell me what first comes to your mind when your looking at a situation in which there is poor PE and you want to improve it.

Thanks much!!

Jeremy

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

examine PE after lights are off

 

[psteeleb]

I used two part, kalk water and ca reator. kalk water gave me the best PE so I ened up using it all the time even after I hooked up my Ca reactor. Just make sure you have some fail safe system to prevent an over dose

 

[liudachris]

Nighttime feedings 1x/wk (so you don't pollute the tank) triples PE to the point where it looks a little unnatural. Just make sure to turn off your pumps so the polyps have time to grab what's out there.

 

[jlinzmaier]

Thanks everyone!!


OK, now I'll give a bit more detail about my situation. From the responses it sounds like its not too uncommon to see less PE during the day than at night. Makes sense as they feed at night.

My SPS seem a bit different from others, especially my millies. Most millies that I see either in pics or in a friends tank seem to be nice and bushy with their polyp ext and it really makes them look quite fuzzy. My millies barely have any polp ext at all, even at night. They look quite bare and don't show the nice fuzziness like when I first got them.

Another coral in question is a montipora verrucosa. It has a beautiful bright green skeleton and the brightest blue polyps I've ever seen. There was a point that the polyps would extend so prominently that the entire coral looked blue. It looked spectacular!! Lately there has been polyp extension but not to the degree like it was.

Let me tell you a bit about my system. It's a 180 gallon mixed reef with about 50% SPS. I run a reeflo orca 250, use 1/2 cup ROX carbon passively in the sump and change it every 2 weeks, grow chaeto in the sump, run a large algea turf scrubber, and do weekly water changes with roughly 30 gallons at each change. I have an average bioload and don't feed heavily. I feed some sort of zooplankton 3-4 times a week (DT's oyster eggs, brightwell zooplankton, roti feast, etc....) I also feed live phyto every other day - about 300-400 ml. Over the past year I've tried various means of alk/ca supplementation to see what yeilded the best growth, PE, and coloration. I assumed I wouldn't find much difference in those factors based on my means of supplementation (and I didn't) but I did learn a great deal about how different supplementation schemes can make a system more stable. I ran a ca reactor for about 8-9 months and everything seemed fine except the pH ran low. After several modifications to improve pH I decided to shut down the reactor and try kalk for a while. While dosing kalk I had an alk spike then a drop causing the loss of two large colonies and general stress to everything. That certainly made me appreciate the stability a ca reactor provides. After the trouble with kalk dosing I moved to what I'm using now which is two part dosing using soda ash as the alk supplement for increased pH values. With this supplementation scheme I have as good of stability as the ca reactor and the elevated pH values like with the kalk dosing. I'm sure if I would have worked at managing dosing more steadily I could have made the kalk dosing work just fine, but for now I'm sold on two part dosing.

Over the last few weeks I've experimented with various alk levels to see if I can improve any of the factors I was trying to affect when trying various ca/alk supplementation schemes. I ran the zeo method for over a year and have a very low nutrient level. While running zeo I kept my alk at 6.5-7.0 dkh. After stopping zeo I bumped the alk to 8.0 to see if I could improve growth (wasn't overly thrilled with the results of zeo). Anyway, a few weeks ago I slowly (over a few days) rose the alk from 8.0 to 9.0 dkh. I noticed nice new growth tips on nearly all my SPS, saw some improvement in SPS PE, and thought I was really onto a good thing. That of course led to the great idea of bumping the alk from 9.0 to 10.0 dkh. That was a mistake. The SPS seemed to continue to do well but I saw some tissue loss on several LPS colonies. As odd as it seemed, the only variable factor was the alk change. I slowly decreased the alk back down to 8.5 dkh and the LPS are recovering nicely; however, now the SPS are now showing some decreased PE.

I realize that stability is a huge component to coral health and maximizing growth and PE. I very much believe that the recent changes I made in the alk levels (even though I went very slow with the changes) have stressed my corals a bit and it may take a few weeks to get back to normal.

I found it really odd that the increase in alk would negatively affect some LPS but not affect any SPS. I would have thought the exact opposite would occur. The fact that the LPS recovered so quickly after the alk decrease only strengthens my belief that the tissue loss was truly due to the alk lvl. Whether it was related to the alk changes or the actual level ittself I don't know. I just wanted to reverse things as quickly and safely as possible before I lost the entire LPS colonies that were being affected.

Any thoughts on my situation??


Jeremy

 

[Logzor]

Use a turkey baster on your millie and see if you blow off AEFW. These are notorious for ruining the PE on millies.

 

[29reef]

I'd suggest you try a few red bug treatments, once a week for a month. You can't be too safe. I'd also suggest adding foods like rotifers and plankton that sps eat; these will encourage daytime PE IMO.

 

[psteeleb]

pests will certainly keep your sps form having healthy looking PE

but you will find corals do like what kalc has to offer over CA or 2 part even if used very sparringly. I think it's mostly PH related but there may be some chemical they like

also - I have noticed at least four types of PE in my acros

1) daytime normal - mostly the polyps that are on the outside (not tips), used mostly for resperation and some feeding
2) nightime normal - mostly the tips - or very extended tips, this may also be resperation but may be more feeding and also due to fewer coral preditors being out at night
3) feeding (can be night or day), totally different polyps then the normal and fully retract when not used - more a streamer then a polyp. I think they sweep the area when they notice food and draw it in to the main polyp. these sweepers seem to come out of the coral body right below the normal polyps
4) fighting mode - seem to be the same as normal polyps but very extended to sting other corals fighting for the space

normal day polyps on a chips

normal night polyps on the same chips - notice the end polyps that don't extend as much durring the day

feeding streamers on a tort


I'll have to dig around my photo archives for the fighting polyps

hth

 

[jlinzmaier]

Hey thanks so much psteeleb!! I agree entirely. I've seen those exact same four types of polyps extended just didn't know how to articulate as well as you.


I believe I just found my problem. Da Da Da Da!!!! I have AEFW's!!!!!!!!! yahoo!!!!!!!

Why yahoooo!!!!! Becuase I haven't been able to get to the root of my lack of PE on my millies for over a year and a half. I now have something to treat!!!!! There's hope in sight!!!!!

I have no idea how I aquired them though. I QT everything and put all my corals through a rigorous dip twice before adding them to the DT (I do a lugols dip for 20 min, FWE dip for 20 min, then a revive dip for 5 min). After each dip I examine the water carefully for any critters and if anything is suspicious they go back into the QT for treatment. However, these little guys slipped past me. I've seen many types of FW's but never any this small. They are about 1/4th of a mm long and really blend in easily with bits of detritus.

I truly just got lucky in seeing them. I took out one of my smaller millies for some dips and started with a FWE dip. I blew on the coral with a pipette but saw nothing come off. I saw bits of detritus from the rock and saw nothing suspicious. After about 10 min I saw a little critter crawling on the bottom. It was tiny and moved relatively fast (1/2cm per second). Since it moved so fast and was so small I nearly overlooked it and thought is was some sort of little pod. After looking and finding nothing else I siphoned him out with my pipette and put him down on a white plate to hit him with the flashlight and magnifying glass. I couldn't believe it. Of what little I could really see, it was dark brown and light brown, shaped like a rocket and had one little tail on each side extending out behind it (common FW shape except very very tiny). After blowing on the coral for another 10 min I saw another fly off so I sucked him up and sure enough it was the same thing. In all, I only saw about three or four come off my 3 in millie and these tiny little guys could have easily been overlooked. I tried my damndest to get a pic but there was just no way becuase they were so small.

I'm really surprised at how fast they could move. I've seen lots of FW's up close and these guys moved much faster than any I've seen. I'm baffeled by it's speed but I'm sure it's a FW. The flat body with two little wings at the end is a dead ringer.

Holy crap I still can't believe it!!

I'm not sure this is the problem causing all the rest of my corals PE issues but it gives me something to finally treat my millies for!!!

FWE here we come. OK steer me in the right direction if I'm wrong. FWE directions say one drop for each gallon. I've got roughly 160-180 gallons net. I'm going to treat for 250 to cover it good (I've never heard of any major issues with using too much FWE - within reason. I always dip my corals in 10X that strength for 20 min and they've never shown a negative reaction). I'll turn off the skimmer for a few hours after I dose the tank. What I know of the treatment, it's best to remove any FW's as they are seen dying so they don't poison the tank. I don't think I'll actually see many to siphon out but I'll look.

Should I leave the carbon in the whole time or take it out for a few hours after treatment???

Dang, it's crappy to have flatworms but it's really nice to have something to treat my millies for their lack of PE. It's really sad, they are pretty much just skeletons - not nice fluffy millies like you see in all the pics.

OK that will be my focus for the time being and I'll see how the rest of the corals react after treatment.

but you will find corals do like what kalc has to offer over CA or 2 part even if used very sparringly. I think it's mostly PH related but there may be some chemical they like

You know, I thought that same thing but thought I was crazy for thinking it. It simply boiled down to ca and carbonate/bicarbonate. It doesn't matter how the corals get it as long as they get it consistently without too much alk fluctuation. In the back of my brain I always thought there was just better growth and overall health in tanks that dose kalk. That is really why I wanted to initially experiment with various ca/alk supplementation. After some instability with my kalk dosing I dismissed it as a poor supplement for me to use with my current dosing equipment (Ironically I needed to buy two expensive dosers to dose my two part with great precision). I may very well try dosing a single gallon of kalk slowly each day. That will help prevent major fluctuations as my primary supplementation will be from two part, but may give the corals that boost in pH or some mystery element that they seem to like so much with kalk dosing.

Can't say it enough. Thanks everyone!!!!

If you have any other suggestions for treating my PE issues or guidance for my FW treatment please chime in. I'm actually in the middle of a 420 gallon build and it will give me a good opportunity to QT everything all over again and be sure it's healthy before entry into the new DT.

Jeremy

 

[psteeleb]

I went through AEFW's and lost more corals doing a remote whole tank acro QT then I believe I would if I left them alone and used more natural approaches.

couple suggestions

1) drill lots of holes in you live rock and peg all your acros - even without signs of pest I made it a practice to pull acros and dip in the recomended amount of ReVive. The corals always seemed to respond positively to it, in many many cases there were no signs of pests what so ever but the acros still responded favorably. maybe like taking a hot shower cleaning off scum buildup that wave/storm action deals with in nature

2) I found the little tiny cheap blue leg hermits are great for sps as they get up around the base and pick off parasites, algea detrious etc. most of the little hermits never make as they fight themselves so I replace them about aver 6-9 months

3) wrasses/mandarins - no my 6 line and mandarin both became got fat on mysis and became worthless pigs. but initially they always crused around the sps base looking for lil bugs. the yellow warase is also a good addition

4) turkey baister

5) when / if you pull corals use a magniflying glass and inspect for AEFW eggs and scrape them off even if you have to break a branch or two to get to them

6) watch for some acros that encrust and grow hundreds of close branches that the hermits and wrasses can't get into. they become AEFW factories (e.g. tri colored acro)

hth

 

[jlinzmaier]

Thanks again everyone!!

Appreciate the suggestions psteeleb!! Sounds pretty logical to me. I'm surprised to hear you routinely dip your corals in revive even if doing well. I've always been afraid to touch them too much afraid that the disturbance will alter the light angles a bit requiring them to photoacclimate a bit and worried the stress of the movement might make them brown out as a bit of a defense mechanism. I'll definately experiment with some revive dipping on various corals and see how they respond. I have yet to hear anyone pipe up with any bad experiences with using revive. All I've heard of is praise when it comes to using revive. Glad I got three bottles free from a recent frag swap!!

Jeremy

 

[Marklu]

Don't get too chipper just yet. I've had aefw's on my millies for about a year now. They've already killed three. I have one right now that I baste and dip regularly, but the PE still isn't there. Everything else is thriving. They just go nuts for millies. I'm still fighting the good fight though, becasue millies are my absolute favorite!

 

[jlinzmaier]

Don't get too chipper just yet. I've had aefw's on my millies for about a year now. They've already killed three. I have one right now that I baste and dip regularly, but the PE still isn't there. Everything else is thriving. They just go nuts for millies. I'm still fighting the good fight though, becasue millies are my absolute favorite!

Have you treated your whole system with FWE??

Jeremy

 

[Logzor]

Thanks again everyone!!

Appreciate the suggestions psteeleb!! Sounds pretty logical to me. I'm surprised to hear you routinely dip your corals in revive even if doing well. I've always been afraid to touch them too much afraid that the disturbance will alter the light angles a bit requiring them to photoacclimate a bit and worried the stress of the movement might make them brown out as a bit of a defense mechanism. I'll definately experiment with some revive dipping on various corals and see how they respond. I have yet to hear anyone pipe up with any bad experiences with using revive. All I've heard of is praise when it comes to using revive. Glad I got three bottles free from a recent frag swap!!

Jeremy

Blow all of your acropora off with a MJ 1200 daily for two weeks. With some, you can point the jet point blank across the coral without doing damage. If there is significant tissue damage to begin with, be less aggressive with the MJ.

Upkeep with a basting with the MJ weekly thereafter. If you can dip your corals during this process, it will help.

If you follow this regimen, it is possible to eliminate the AEFW. At the very least, you will see also zero negative effects on your corals. With proper basting and allowing your fish to eat the AEFW, you can effectively end their lifecycle (killing the adults before they are able to lay eggs).

Good luck, take your time and dont do anything drastic. Search for Sanjay's thread on his AEFW issue.

 

[mpoletti]

Have you treated your whole system with FWE??

Jeremy

FWE does nothing for the treatment of AEFW.

 

[jlinzmaier]

FWE does nothing for the treatment of AEFW.

Really????

So I should dip in something like lugols and revive every couple days?? I already have a 6 line that picks through things really well (I suspect that's likely why the infestation isn't as bad as it could be).


Anyone have any other suggestions for treatment??

Jeremy

 

[mpoletti]

There are basically two methods of treatment. Basting your corals in hopes to manage their population or set up a QT tank, remove their food source from the tank and do weekly treatments of the corals.

 

[jlinzmaier]

There are basically two methods of treatment. Basting your corals in hopes to manage their population or set up a QT tank, remove their food source from the tank and do weekly treatments of the corals.

Hey thanks. Can you clarify what the weekly treatments should entail - lugols, revive, etc....

My millies are all similarly affected so I'll definately QT and treat them. I also have a few other colonies that don't seem to be living up to their full potential. In order to entirely eradicate these things from my system seems relatively tricky since they could potentially be on any and all of the acros. Do I just treat every single acro and put them back in the DT after I see no FW's or eggs on them?? I have some very healthy colonies that I'm afraid I'd expose to the AEFW's if I put them in a QT tank in close proximity with a bunch of others that are infected. I realize they are already exposed being in the DT together, but if I moved them all to the QT they would be in much closer proximity.

I guess the only other option is to QT and treat only the seemingly ill corals and see how they respond. If other corals in the future seem ill I'll just have to check them for an infestation.

This battle is now sounding a little more difficult than I initially thought. Still glad I at least have a known cause for the problem.

Do these flatworms affect any other corals besides acros. I know, their called "acro" eating FW's but I recently lost a few smaller colonies of birdsnest. I attributed it to the alk fluctuations, but is there any chance the AEFW's could be to blame for their death also??

Jeremy

 

[mpoletti]

Hey thanks. Can you clarify what the weekly treatments should entail - lugols, revive, etc....

My millies are all similarly affected so I'll definately QT and treat them. I also have a few other colonies that don't seem to be living up to their full potential. In order to entirely eradicate these things from my system seems relatively tricky since they could potentially be on any and all of the acros. Do I just treat every single acro and put them back in the DT after I see no FW's or eggs on them?? I have some very healthy colonies that I'm afraid I'd expose to the AEFW's if I put them in a QT tank in close proximity with a bunch of others that are infected. I realize they are already exposed being in the DT together, but if I moved them all to the QT they would be in much closer proximity.

I guess the only other option is to QT and treat only the seemingly ill corals and see how they respond. If other corals in the future seem ill I'll just have to check them for an infestation.

This battle is now sounding a little more difficult than I initially thought. Still glad I at least have a known cause for the problem.

Do these flatworms affect any other corals besides acros. I know, their called "acro" eating FW's but I recently lost a few smaller colonies of birdsnest. I attributed it to the alk fluctuations, but is there any chance the AEFW's could be to blame for their death also??

Jeremy

They can be beat and you will have a better appreciation of your tank and what goes in it after your tank is clean.

I would recommend revive. Some use TMPCC, but I also know people that have used it and still ended up with them.

From my gatherings, they do not feed on montiporas, porites and other non acropora SPS. I have never seen them on a bridsnest.

I removed everything when I did my tank. My thoughts were why go through all of this and not do the job correctly. It also allowed me the chance to place pieces in better spots as I had an idea of what corals responded to lighting and flow. In order to erradicate them, you must break the life cycle thus killing the next batch of eggs. I have seen plenty of pictures when the eggs are laid on LR so just removing the corals will only solve some of the problem. They newly hatched will search out a food source so that is why it is recommended to remove all acros.

Are you positive they are aefw and not planaria? Good luck

 

[heller792]

What are AFEW please.