Sulfur denitrater won't cycle
- Thread starter reefslugs
- Start date
I am thinking the addition of the mysterious NBC product should add several strains of bacteria to jumpstart things, but I cannot find any information about it other than that. Maybe reefslugs can help since he went this route??
How much NBC did you add, what process did you follow when you did this?
How much NBC did you add, what process did you follow when you did this?
reefslugs
Active member
Nanook, here's what I know. Number one I don't know why you took a part your reactor to clean. One of the things I learned when your reactor does not cycle is to make sure it is not sucking in air. Also make sure the reactor does not have an air pocket. The reason is that when the bacteria touches air, the bacteria dies. Once you opened up your reactor and exposed it the air, it dies. The sulfur in our reactors is just sulfur. The sulfur must be seeded with bacteria. This is were I had my problem with my reactor cycling. I got bacteria from the manufacturer that made my reactor. Midwest Aquatics. I don't know what kind of bacteria it is. Nor will Midwest Aquatics tell you what it is. I know you can contact them and buy the bacteria. It's not expressive. They will send you a little zip lock bag with what looks like brown sugar, a spoon and a syringe. Reactor cycles in 24 hours.
I cleaned my reactor out because it was filled with a lot of detritus. I think the NBC bacteria would have helped in retrospect, but wanted to get your specifics on how much you added and in what fashion you added it. Are these things you can give away, or are you sworn to secrecy
??
??
ethank77
New member
I have a mid west 7 x 21 reactor and have had a problem with it I can get it to work at drip rates of less than 1drip per sec at or above 1 drip per sec it would quit. about a week ago I read a thread on the coil denitraters and how they worked so I put a 25 foot piece of tubing in front of my reactor after just 3 days I was able to get 1 drip per sec but not much more than that. so I just broke it down and added more media sulfur and reduced my arm cal media to make room for it may be this will help me if it does I will let you guy know that are having problems like mine.
Mine was working fine until I took it apart to clean it with tank saltwater. Once I did that I couldn't get it to denitrify past a certain flow rate, which is useless. I suspect the NBC bacteria stuff has the potential to "super-seed" the sulphur media so it will get going strong. Now, the question posed is how much of this stuff do you need to use and how do you "seed" the reactor? Specific instructions would be good to have, but I suspect it is something you can only get by buying the product which I am planning to do soon.
My to cents... from my experience.
The Midwest reactors are not the ideal setup. Sulfur pellets don't have enough specific surface to colonize enough bacteria. I would recommend filling the reactor 2/3 with Seachem matrix media and 1/3 with sulfur. The sulfur will last for 6-12 months and if separated well from matrix it can be added without disturbing the matrix.
I have set up one (my design build) in September and controlling with an ORP is a breeze.
I can detail more if needed.
cheers,
MaLi
The Midwest reactors are not the ideal setup. Sulfur pellets don't have enough specific surface to colonize enough bacteria. I would recommend filling the reactor 2/3 with Seachem matrix media and 1/3 with sulfur. The sulfur will last for 6-12 months and if separated well from matrix it can be added without disturbing the matrix.
I have set up one (my design build) in September and controlling with an ORP is a breeze.
I can detail more if needed.
cheers,
MaLi
This article covers some of the denitrification chemistry:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm
Sulfur is consumed in some anaerobic processes, which is why some people put it into reactors.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm
Sulfur is consumed in some anaerobic processes, which is why some people put it into reactors.
The matrix media referred to is a very porous stone like pebble not the matrix granulated activated carbon. I used it in my sulfur reactor . It does not breakdown at all. Both are made by Seachem and both are called Matrix. Confusing.Don't know if you need the extra surface area to enhance bacterial growth or not but it seemed to work ok .
I agree adding vodka( ethanol C2 H2 OH ) will not help. ; it does not feed the bacteria that use the sulfur.They use CO2 sulfur water and nitrate and don't need organic C.
The basic reaction from bacterial activity in a sulfur denitrator is :water + sulfur + nitrate , converted to nitrogen gas, sulfate and hydrogen. That is 2 H20 + 5 S +6 NO3 -----> 3 N2 + 5 SO4 +4 H+. Inorganic CO2 is used for carbon and linked with hydrogen thus meeting the need for organic carbon.
I agree adding vodka( ethanol C2 H2 OH ) will not help. ; it does not feed the bacteria that use the sulfur.They use CO2 sulfur water and nitrate and don't need organic C.
The basic reaction from bacterial activity in a sulfur denitrator is :water + sulfur + nitrate , converted to nitrogen gas, sulfate and hydrogen. That is 2 H20 + 5 S +6 NO3 -----> 3 N2 + 5 SO4 +4 H+. Inorganic CO2 is used for carbon and linked with hydrogen thus meeting the need for organic carbon.
Thanks.
When the nitrate got to zero it was hard to get the reactor to stop producing hydrogen sulfide even with amped up flow and less sulfur. I was going to modify it to allow more flow and try to balance it to the load of NO3 put into the system which is considerable since I feed over 40 fish well but went with vodka/vinegar dosing instead and haven't needed the sulfur denitrator since.
When the nitrate got to zero it was hard to get the reactor to stop producing hydrogen sulfide even with amped up flow and less sulfur. I was going to modify it to allow more flow and try to balance it to the load of NO3 put into the system which is considerable since I feed over 40 fish well but went with vodka/vinegar dosing instead and haven't needed the sulfur denitrator since.
Correct,
I started with a 2.5 ppm NO3 and now I can not even read with an Elos test. As I said, I am monitoring this with an ORP probe and I keep upping the flow in order to have a reading around -200.
To complement tmz's explanation, when ORP reading will start going up toward positive and flow will get restricted more and more this will be the sign that bacteria level is decaying due to lack of food. So, time to add more sulfur, but because I have the matrix inside the reactor will not have to cycle again.
I will try to post some pictures today.
cheers,
MaLi
PS. for those of you using the sulfur reactor do mind the alk drop. In my case I have to add about 15 ml/day part 2. to keep it up around 9 dKH.
here are some pictures from my build and differences from djfrankie build here on RC (Thank you DJ !).
- Reactor is fed from main return pump via a John Guest valve directly into recirculation pump inlet rather than outlet.
- No foam pad has been used. Those are in my mind detritus traps and will make things worst in time. So since media is coarse enough I went with 4" floor strainers from Menard's ($2.4 a piece) that I covered with fiber glass net (the one used for patio doors). I used three; one for the bottom, one between matrix and sulfur and one on top of sulfur to prevent sulfur bids from being ingested by return pump. Follow the pictures and just gently smooth the edges with a file. It will fit snag into a 4" PVC pipe.
Rest is in the pictures. Ask if you have questions.
cheers,
MaLi
- Reactor is fed from main return pump via a John Guest valve directly into recirculation pump inlet rather than outlet.
- No foam pad has been used. Those are in my mind detritus traps and will make things worst in time. So since media is coarse enough I went with 4" floor strainers from Menard's ($2.4 a piece) that I covered with fiber glass net (the one used for patio doors). I used three; one for the bottom, one between matrix and sulfur and one on top of sulfur to prevent sulfur bids from being ingested by return pump. Follow the pictures and just gently smooth the edges with a file. It will fit snag into a 4" PVC pipe.
Rest is in the pictures. Ask if you have questions.
cheers,
MaLi
Attachments
Thanks Bertoni and MaLi!
Is the information in this article superceeded by anything newer? I understand the ditrification/de-nitrifaction procress fairly well, - but found this comment below interesting/confusing.
I have been told the sulphur should last for years, and only really need replacement if, or - when - the surface of it becomes clogged. That it only serves as the best culture medium for the bacteria which are most efficient at de-nitrification.......
Yet, as shown by the chemical reactions in the linked article you were kind enough send me (thank you!) it is consumed - at a very slow rate.
Statement from the article:
Question: Must sulfur be regularly added?
Marc's answer: Sulfur is used, but it is very low. It corresponds to
4NO3 + 3S ->2 N2 + 3 SO4
(it is more complex, but it comes to that)
In practice I never added any sulfur in years, even less changed it.
So - how do we know when to replace - or if to replace the sulphur? I hope this is not seen as too great a deviation from the intent of the OP.
T
Is the information in this article superceeded by anything newer? I understand the ditrification/de-nitrifaction procress fairly well, - but found this comment below interesting/confusing.
I have been told the sulphur should last for years, and only really need replacement if, or - when - the surface of it becomes clogged. That it only serves as the best culture medium for the bacteria which are most efficient at de-nitrification.......
Yet, as shown by the chemical reactions in the linked article you were kind enough send me (thank you!) it is consumed - at a very slow rate.
Statement from the article:
Question: Must sulfur be regularly added?
Marc's answer: Sulfur is used, but it is very low. It corresponds to
4NO3 + 3S ->2 N2 + 3 SO4
(it is more complex, but it comes to that)
In practice I never added any sulfur in years, even less changed it.
So - how do we know when to replace - or if to replace the sulphur? I hope this is not seen as too great a deviation from the intent of the OP.
T
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