Sump design

[reefman5511]

All the sumps I've seen have the 1st & 3rd baffle at the bottom of the sump with the middle baffle raised about an inch off the bottom. I realize this is to allow any bubbles to rise to the surface & not enter the return chamber. Wouldn't it make more sense to have the 1st & 3rd baffles raised & the middle one down? This way you wouldn't get any bubbles forming if the water level in the return chamber gets low - you wouldn't have water cascading over the last baffle & bubbles being formed. Additionally you'd have a greater surface area for the bubbles to break.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

3 baffles aren't necessary IMO

3 baffles aren't necessary IMO

first baffle should force water flow to go under it and second baffle should have water flowing over it. The heaters are placed after the second baffle and the pump intake should be well above the heaters which should be placed on the bottom (or very close to the bottom) of the sump. This design will create a pocket of water in which heaters will ALWAYS remain submerged.

 

[toddmh]

someone told me to put the return pump intake as close to the top of the water as possible to insure if something happens to clog the display tanks overflow(or siphon brakes)all the water in the sump will not end up on the floor..

Even though the return pump may overheat,do you think this is a good idea ?

 

[captain7359]

first baffle should force water flow to go under it and second baffle should have water flowing over it. The heaters are placed after the second baffle and the pump intake should be well above the heaters which should be placed on the bottom (or very close to the bottom) of the sump. This design will create a pocket of water in which heaters will ALWAYS remain submerged.

^
Bingo if you think you're going to need baffles.

Filter sock and slow velocity are what I shoot for so I don't have to deal with baffles though.

 

[Paradiddle7]

A check valve is good to use too, to prevent your outputs from siphoning back into your sump. It allows you to put your output nozzles lower in the water etc...

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

A check valve is good to use too, to prevent your outputs from siphoning back into your sump. It allows you to put your output nozzles lower in the water etc...

sorry- this is not good aquarium design and I'd advise anyone against it.
Check valves fail (it's just a matter of time before they do) and water returns should discharge at the surface (for many reasons).

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

someone told me to put the return pump intake as close to the top of the water as possible to insure if something happens to clog the display tanks overflow(or siphon brakes)all the water in the sump will not end up on the floor..

Even though the return pump may overheat,do you think this is a good idea ?

no. Not a good idea.

Main pump intake should be low inside the sump. An inch or two above the bottom of the sump is best in most cases. Make sure sump capacity can handle all water that drains to it in the evnt of a power failure.
Placing a pump intake close to the top of the water can cause pump cavitation, microbubbles and worse.

 

[toddmh]

hmm ok i'm confused (it's not hard lol )

Ok I'm planing my sump now,I don't have a drilled tank,i'm using a overflow box..My understanding is..If there is a power failure,the water in the display will drain into the sump until the water in the display goes below the low drain point of the overflow box.I am going to compensate this by leaving enough room in the sump for this to happen without a flood,Is this a good idea ?

Aslo my other concern is,not a power failure but siphon failure on the overflow box..This seems like the week point in the sump system I am having to use..If the siphon fails how should I plan my system so the return pump in the sump does not pump the 30g of the sump into my 75g display ?(disaster insues,wife makes me sleep in the garage all winter lol )

My thinking was to leave enough room in the display for the sump to pump water until the pump is exposed(may lose my pump,but keep my bedroom)

If there is a easy way that I do not see that can save both my pump and me,please tell

 

[captain7359]

hmm ok i'm confused (it's not hard lol )
If there is a easy way that I do not see that can save both my pump and me,please tell

Drill the tank and put an overflow box in the tank.

skip the check they are just false hope and a maintenance issue.

if you use a hang on overflow make sure you use a tube type (lifereef style) and not one of the cpr weir style ones. to prevent the sump from overflowing fill the main tank till it just starts flowing into the sump through the overflow. Fill the sump to the brim or a few inches down for a buffer. Do this with the skimmer and reactors off. start the return pump and push water into the display and let the flow equalize. mark the water level in the sump with the return and skimmer running. NEVER fill the water above that mark when the pumps are running and you won't have to worry about the sump overflowing.

 

[naprestsleep]

^
Bingo if you think you're going to need baffles.

Filter sock and slow velocity are what I shoot for so I don't have to deal with baffles though.

Don't baffles also have the added benefit of maintaining a steady water level in the skimmer section of a sump. If they are not used, and an internal skimmer is, would it now be harder to dial the skimmer in right?

.

 

[Conesus_Kid]

Don't baffles also have the added benefit of maintaining a steady water level in the skimmer section of a sump. If they are not used, and an internal skimmer is, would it now be harder to dial the skimmer in right?

.

That's correct. If one is using an internal skimmer, a consistent water height in the skimmer chamber is necessary for consistent skimmer performance.

 

[Gary Majchrzak]

most skimmer's nowadays are fed via a dedicated pump. As long as that pump's water intake is submerged there should be relatively little variance in skimmer performance due to external water levels HOWEVER backpressure on the skimmer discharge can have a lesser effect on skimmer performance (making it more difficult to fine tune) and that's why some people set up baffles around an internal (submerged) skimmer.

 

[cardiffgiant]

Since I have always planned things out carefully, I have never made any design flaws in my systems. However, I have personally tested many of the design flaw scenarios that will result in water finding its way out of a vessel and onto the floor. Just so that I could understand them fully and communicate the result to others in an occasion such as this.

Scenarios that I've personally tested:

1- What if my sump doesn't have enough room for back siphon? Result: wet floors. Solution: sump MUST have excess capacity for 100% of back siphon. Valves and siphon breaks can fail over time (I've had siphon breaks fill with debris). I use loc line at the end of my return plumbing and it goes 1" below the surface.

2- What would happen if my overflow failed? Result: both the contents of the return chamber AND my ATO reservoir flood the display and the floors get a salt water bath. Solution: the display must have capacity for the volume of both the return chamber of the sump and the ATO, OR the overflow system must have a fail safe that makes it extremely unlikely that htis would happen (I.E., multiple overflows).

3- What happens if my ATO doesn't turn off? Result = lower salinity and flooded system. Solution = ATO reservoir volume should not exceed excess space in system.

4- Is daisy chaining 3 vessels for a sump system a good idea? Result = no, it's actually a bad idea for anyone that likes dry floors. Solution = use a single vessel to hold all sump chambers.

5- Are check valves reliable? Result: yes, you can rely on a check valve to fill with crude over the course of a year, restricting flow and no longer closing. Solution = don't use check valves.

6- How mad will my downstairs tenant be if got to bed and forget to turn off my RODI while I'm filling a bucket? Result = pretty mad. Solution = fill buckets in an area where excess water doesn't anger people that pay rent.

 

[toddmh]

great info Ben....

And ohh...7- floor-frogs lol

 

[captain7359]

4- Is daisy chaining 3 vessels for a sump system a good idea? Result = no, it's actually a bad idea for anyone that likes dry floors. Solution = use a single vessel to hold all sump chambers.

This isn't true if the last vessel has enough capacity for overflow of the main tank and two other upstream vessels. My system consists of a main display that drains into a 65 skimmer tank, 75 fuge then into a 70 sump. In addition my 40 frag also drains into the 70 sump. The sump has capacityy to handle the overflow of all the tanks.

most skimmer's nowadays are fed via a dedicated pump. As long as that pump's water intake is submerged there should be relatively little variance in skimmer performance due to external water levels HOWEVER backpressure on the skimmer discharge can have a lesser effect on skimmer performance (making it more difficult to fine tune) and that's why some people set up baffles around an internal (submerged) skimmer.

Unless the skimmer is a recirc and is fed by a dedicated pump, then, yes you will need a constant level section in your sump created by a baffle.

If the skimmer sees varying water levels(head pressure) the skimmer will be difficult to fine tune to maintain a constant foam level. Unless your ato is set to maintain constant water level to +-1/4" or your skimmer is a recirc t hen you will need at least 1 baffle.

 

[naprestsleep]

Thanks for the info, for my planned setup my skimmer is not a recirc so I think I will try one baffle.

While on the subject of baffles, Lowes sells 2.5mm glass that is sold as "double strength". Its less that the 1/8 some people say is the bare minimum to use for baffles. Anyone use this 2.5 mm glass? Sorry to hijack, but figure its relevant to baffles.

Joe

 

[reefman5511]

Not a problem. Definitely welcome all the info.
I've heard that baffles are best made from 1/4" glass. I found some 3/8" stuff on craigslist that a guy was giving away. Cost me $10 to get it cut.

 

[naprestsleep]

Yes from my understanding 1/4 in is better, but I have read that 1/8 inch works as long as your not going to subjecting it to much pressure from the water.

 

[captain7359]

Yes from my understanding 1/4 in is better, but I have read that 1/8 inch works as long as your not going to subjecting it to much pressure from the water.

or wacking it with a skimmer, reactor, elbow, etc.

 

[naprestsleep]

or wacking it with a skimmer, reactor, elbow, etc.

Good point, think I will invest in 1/4, rather safe than sorry.