Sump with no baffles

Constant water level means constant water level, not a 1/2" flucuation, or 1/8" flucuation; a constant water level. The only way to do that is with a baffle. No matter how cleverly you think the ATO is designed, the water level will flucuate, and the more the ATO cycles the sooner it will fail... Also LR has no place or function in a sump. It is a complete waste, doing just the same thing as bio-balls of days gone by— anyone want to fill their sump with bio-balls? I have NEVER run across a system that was suffering from so little rock, that more was needed in the sump...Many have so much rock in the DT that it inhibits good circulation....

Wow I don't think I have ever read anyone get so excited over such a simple statement before. Thank you for bringing your opinion into focus and it will be noted and entered into the record for future reference. However and I know that you know this with all of your years of experience and being a pro, but there are multiple ways to accomplish the same end result. That is one of the great "secrets" of this hobby. You agree? Remember in the old days when the internet wasn't around and you had to problem solve on your own? For example: When I built my system I put baffles in to control the water levels and to compartmentalize everything but I bought a new larger skimmer and it just did not fit. What should I do? I don't have the money to go buy a new sump because I just spent the money on the skimmer. Think, think, think. What should I do? I know, because I am moving the system to another part of the house, and I have to drain the sump anyways, I will cut the baffles out and TRY it this way. If it doesn't work I will just move the baffles over a few inches and reattach the glass. As you can see below my skimmer worked just fine in a sump without baffles and I will never build a sump with them again (or until I change my mind).




According to your train of thought it should not work though it makes you wonder how much better it would if I had it in its own compartment. The water level in the sump was much higher than recommended by the skimmer manufacture so how did I overcome this? I built a platform out of pvc pipe and eggcrate to the correct water depth. Those dreaded microbubbles? I know, I will block them from my return pump by turning the inlet away from the skimmer "section" and put LR between the skimmer output and the pump return so the bubbles hit the rock and float to the surface. I suppose I could have taken large diameter pvc pipe, cut it in half and blocked the pump. Well look at that, once again multiple ways of doing the same thing. See the trend?

As far as your statement for LR being the same as bioballs you realize that doesn't make much sense because they are not the same because they don't function the same. Yes both are used for biological filtration but there are differences but I am sure you already knew that. One completes the process and one does not. But we are talking about one system right? The display tank is connected to the sump and fuge and ..... so why is it if you have a system with LR and BBs you can get nutrient readings? Every time someone would debate this I would think about it but it wasn't until RHF on here talked about the rate of breakdown due to the physical distances between the bacteria.

If you really believe that having LR in the sump is bad you had better get busy and start posting in people's threads warning them of their mistakes including some TOTM reefers. Some have LR in their sumps and others do not. Once again there are multiple ways of achieving the same goal.
Finally as far as the ATO failing I have never had one fail after years of use. I am sure people have because anything mechanical can and will fail at some point. If you are using something like an aqualifter pump to top off you can see it slow down over time. Often the lines get clogged especially if you are using Mrs. Wage's pickling lime (oh once again, another way of doing something) but cleaning it with vinegar is pretty easy. If that doesn't work, $15 will buy a new one.

Perhaps you have tried this and failed or have had poor results but others have not so you shouldn't dismiss this so quickly.


I suppose I wrote too much for today's standards for posting so if you did not read any of what I wrote I think this sums up my points:

That's one thing I love about this hobby, so many different techniques work.

Thanks.
 
Don't get your feathers ruffled by simple comments and opinions.

Even if it works without, a baffle is still better than no baffle.
 
Wow I don't think I have ever read anyone get so excited over such a simple statement before. Thank you for bringing your opinion into focus and it will be noted and entered into the record for future reference. However and I know that you know this with all of your years of experience and being a pro, but there are multiple ways to accomplish the same end result. That is one of the great "secrets" of this hobby. You agree? Remember in the old days when the internet wasn't around and you had to problem solve on your own? For example: When I built my system I put baffles in to control the water levels and to compartmentalize everything but I bought a new larger skimmer and it just did not fit. What should I do? I don't have the money to go buy a new sump because I just spent the money on the skimmer. Think, think, think. What should I do? I know, because I am moving the system to another part of the house, and I have to drain the sump anyways, I will cut the baffles out and TRY it this way. If it doesn't work I will just move the baffles over a few inches and reattach the glass. As you can see below my skimmer worked just fine in a sump without baffles and I will never build a sump with them again (or until I change my mind).




According to your train of thought it should not work though it makes you wonder how much better it would if I had it in its own compartment. The water level in the sump was much higher than recommended by the skimmer manufacture so how did I overcome this? I built a platform out of pvc pipe and eggcrate to the correct water depth. Those dreaded microbubbles? I know, I will block them from my return pump by turning the inlet away from the skimmer "section" and put LR between the skimmer output and the pump return so the bubbles hit the rock and float to the surface. I suppose I could have taken large diameter pvc pipe, cut it in half and blocked the pump. Well look at that, once again multiple ways of doing the same thing. See the trend?

As far as your statement for LR being the same as bioballs you realize that doesn't make much sense because they are not the same because they don't function the same. Yes both are used for biological filtration but there are differences but I am sure you already knew that. One completes the process and one does not. But we are talking about one system right? The display tank is connected to the sump and fuge and ..... so why is it if you have a system with LR and BBs you can get nutrient readings? Every time someone would debate this I would think about it but it wasn't until RHF on here talked about the rate of breakdown due to the physical distances between the bacteria.

If you really believe that having LR in the sump is bad you had better get busy and start posting in people's threads warning them of their mistakes including some TOTM reefers. Some have LR in their sumps and others do not. Once again there are multiple ways of achieving the same goal.
Finally as far as the ATO failing I have never had one fail after years of use. I am sure people have because anything mechanical can and will fail at some point. If you are using something like an aqualifter pump to top off you can see it slow down over time. Often the lines get clogged especially if you are using Mrs. Wage's pickling lime (oh once again, another way of doing something) but cleaning it with vinegar is pretty easy. If that doesn't work, $15 will buy a new one.

Perhaps you have tried this and failed or have had poor results but others have not so you shouldn't dismiss this so quickly.


I suppose I wrote too much for today's standards for posting so if you did not read any of what I wrote I think this sums up my points:



Thanks.

I am not in the least bit excited...

I will post retractions, and or warnings, or dispell the myths, IF anyone can come up with REASONABLE and REAL arguments—based in marine science. Since for the most part, the science of this hobby is dismissed as nothing but opinion....

There are multiple ways to acheive goals, however, too many of them don't really acheive the desired goal, and it is misunderstanding, mis-information, and myth that lead folks to believe they are actually achieving a desired goal, in the manner they believe.

LR in the sump: Does nothing but produce more nitrates in the system. They are nitrate factories, just the same as bio-balls. Folks do NOT use bio-balls for that reason: they do nothing but produce nitrates. Therefore there is no logical, fact based reason for using LR (which really isn't live at all—the belief that it is, is a misunderstanding of what LIVE rock is, and what it will and will not do.)

I do not involve myself with TOTMs. It is what it is, and I have no idea what the criteria is. I will say it has been a long time since I have seen a tank like this:

3rdclown1000726_zps819a9681.jpg


3rdd1194850_zps49bba9f5.jpg


But as I said, I really don't follow the show and tell end of things.
 
There are any number of things that people do on their reef tanks that seem pointless to me, and likely serve no useful purpose. My favorite 'whipping boy' in this regard is live sand. Pile of rocks in the sump is in the top five. I'm not even sure what purpose it is argued to serve? I don't think I've ever had a reef tank, even one with a paucity of rock in the display, fail to have enough biological filtration to mange the nitrogen cycle.
 
There are any number of things that people do on their reef tanks that seem pointless to me, and likely serve no useful purpose. My favorite 'whipping boy' in this regard is live sand. Pile of rocks in the sump is in the top five. I'm not even sure what purpose it is argued to serve? I don't think I've ever had a reef tank, even one with a paucity of rock in the display, fail to have enough biological filtration to mange the nitrogen cycle.

What you say is very true. We have similar views on this. Live sand (store bought/packaged, or sand in general in the sump) is in my top five.

The rumor is that live rock performs "denitrification." Unfortunately, there is no basis for this "rumor" or belief. The missing link (in closed systems) is a mechanisim for the bulk transport of water through the rock at precisely the right speed, for denitrification to occur. Since the pores are minute (< hypodermic needles size) diffusion, advection, (bulk movement of a material through a moving medium such as moisture through the atmosphere, or a pile of sand at the bottom of a river) or other motive force is not present within the rock, and water movement exterior to the rock will not influence water movement inside the rock. It can be assumed that diffusion may account for some movement of the dissolved nitrogeneous material a short distance (measured in mm) into the rock. However, that is not sufficient, and will be short lived, as the pores become plugged with glycocalyx (bacterial secretion,) coralline algae, and corals.

The other big argument is pod growing, but there really is not a point to that either. The sump is supposed to "export" not produce.
 
So what do you suggest my friend, if we shouldn't put LR and sand in the refugium/sump. Is chaeto the answer?
 
This would only apply if there was no ATO system in place. I do not use baffles in my 55 gallon sump for my 125 gallon display. I have no microbubble problems and my protein skimmer works well. But I do have an ATO system.

This is great! I've been looking into this recently and I hope it works.
 
I am not in the least bit excited...

I will post retractions, and or warnings, or dispell the myths, IF anyone can come up with REASONABLE and REAL arguments"”based in marine science. Since for the most part, the science of this hobby is dismissed as nothing but opinion....

There are multiple ways to acheive goals, however, too many of them don't really acheive the desired goal, and it is misunderstanding, mis-information, and myth that lead folks to believe they are actually achieving a desired goal, in the manner they believe.

LR in the sump: Does nothing but produce more nitrates in the system. They are nitrate factories, just the same as bio-balls. Folks do NOT use bio-balls for that reason: they do nothing but produce nitrates. Therefore there is no logical, fact based reason for using LR (which really isn't live at all"”the belief that it is, is a misunderstanding of what LIVE rock is, and what it will and will not do.)

I do not involve myself with TOTMs. It is what it is, and I have no idea what the criteria is. I will say it has been a long time since I have seen a tank like this:

3rdclown1000726_zps819a9681.jpg


3rdd1194850_zps49bba9f5.jpg


But as I said, I really don't follow the show and tell end of things.

Just wondering what the point of posting these pictures is/was?
 
My sump is bare bottom. Not having permanent baffles has given me the flexibility to move things around during cleaning and vacuuming without breaking anything.
 
Last edited:
My sump is wide open with just the intake (no sock) the protein skimmer, a hang-on-back refugium and the return pump. I also have a small powerhead pointing at the bottom to prevent detritus buildup. I have an ATO to keep the water level constant.

My tank is completely algae and microbubble free.
 
Me too. It's a beautiful tank. Is that yours, uncle?

No it isn't. That is from GARF.org. Sally Jo Headlee is the photographer. I have them for use in illustrating what can be accomplished without technology other than plenum systems/skimmers without the use of halides, T5/HO, LEDs etc etc, using hand dosing. E.G. old school... :) I prefer to go on about the methods, the science and the like, rather than my tanks, a large number of my very best endeavors are privately owned by others... I am a business, and the tanks I have here belong to that business...

The last time I used those images, was in a thread on overdriving T5/HO, with a 660, the tank in the above images is running T12VHO on a 660... same amount of energy consumption, less risk involved. I stated the images were from GARF. :)
 
Last edited:
No it isn't. That is from GARF.org. Sally Jo Headlee is the photographer. I have them for use in illustrating what can be accomplished without technology other than plenum systems/skimmers without the use of halides, T5/HO, LEDs etc etc, using hand dosing. E.G. old school... :) I prefer to go on about the methods, the science and the like, rather than my tanks, a large number of my very best endeavors are privately owned by others... I am a business, and the tanks I have here belong to that business...

The last time I used those images, was in a thread on overdriving T5/HO, with a 660, the tank in the above images is running T12VHO on a 660... same amount of energy consumption, less risk involved. I stated the images were from GARF. :)

Awesome. I always wanted to try my hand at the fish business and see if I could survive. However I feel like I might not make it and can't take that risk at the moment. Any experiences you want to share would be greatly appreciated.

I am also a little old school as well, with the exception of running metal halides. I found a set real cheap and like it a lot. I don't run filter socks because I want all the detritus to feed my LPS and sofies. I dose vinegar as well. I am also running a canister filter with nothing but a prefilter sponge and chemipure elite, but I may remove it because I think it's contributing to my nitrates.

My sump is wide open with just the intake (no sock) the protein skimmer, a hang-on-back refugium and the return pump. I also have a small powerhead pointing at the bottom to prevent detritus buildup. I have an ATO to keep the water level constant.

My tank is completely algae and microbubble free.

You're sump is almost exactly like my sump. Rather than tell you why don't I just show you:
 

Attachments

  • photo.jpg
    photo.jpg
    55.4 KB · Views: 9
Awesome. I always wanted to try my hand at the fish business and see if I could survive. However I feel like I might not make it and can't take that risk at the moment. Any experiences you want to share would be greatly appreciated.

Experiences? Yeah, become a lawyer... ;)

I am also a little old school as well, with the exception of running metal halides. I found a set real cheap and like it a lot. I don't run filter socks because I want all the detritus to feed my LPS and sofies. I dose vinegar as well. I am also running a canister filter with nothing but a prefilter sponge and chemipure elite, but I may remove it because I think it's contributing to my nitrates.

It is contributing to your nitrates.... run a dsb in a bucket, nitrates be gone in a month or so...
 
Experiences? Yeah, become a lawyer... ;)



It is contributing to your nitrates.... run a dsb in a bucket, nitrates be gone in a month or so...

lol so you're saying its better to keep this as a hobby and earn your income from a profession that is more solid?

and should I remove the canister filter if I decide to do a separate DSB in a bucket like you say?
 
lol so you're saying its better to keep this as a hobby and earn your income from a profession that is more solid?

and should I remove the canister filter if I decide to do a separate DSB in a bucket like you say?

Absolutely to both...
 
I run a bean animal type drain. I have no baffles in my sump. It works fine for me. I also found that a remote dsb works great at avoiding algae in my tanks. just my .02
 
Back
Top