Sumps for Dummies - I've got questions!

[NeedBiggerTank]

I'm not even sure where to start...

OK - I understand the concept of a sump. I even understand (somewhat) what the baffles are used for (bubble traps, dividing the sump into zones, etc.). I don't know, however, answers to the following:

1) where exactly do you put the baffles?
2) How thick should the glass be?
3) What is the correct adhesive to get at Lowe's or Home Depot for securing the baffles?
4) Does a sump have to have baffles?

Once you've got all the baffles in place, then the question is - how much water do you put in the sump to start with? I know you must leave enough of it empty to be able to handle the max amount of water from your display down to the bottom of your overflow level. That calculator thingy says that is 12.5 gallons for my 90. Does that sound right?

Then lets talk return pumps. Don't have a clue what type of pump is needed or the gallons/hour required. (as an aside, I've always wanted to ask for those with refugiums in their sumps, don't the amphipods and copepods get sqooshed or otherwize killed getting sucked into such a powerful pump? I mean how do they get up to your display intact? Just curious!)

A couple of things - my tank isn't drilled, so I will be using a HOB overflow box - would appreciate suggestions here. Would like to do this without breaking the bank, of course (just found out today that Andrew (our Suburban) has to have a new catalitic converter - OUCH). Where should the overflow box go - in the middle of the tank or at one end or the other?

Thanks in advance! :spin2:

 

[estutesman]

I will share my opinion, and experiences.
A sump can be whatever you want it to be. Some are intricate, others just add water volume for stability/temperature control.

At it's simplest, a sump is a place where you can put your heater, calcium reactor, skimmer or other device to keep it out of sight.

I do not use baffles to keep out air bubbles because my skimmer does not really have that problem, but if you had bubbles from a skimmer or from the water splashing into the sump, you would place the baffles so that they would be able to trap the bubbles before the return pump. Home depot has some Aquarium safe silicone. It is in a small tube for about $4. Baffles can be very thin. They do not typically support any weight. They don't even have to be glass. Plastic, acrylic are acceptable.

Currently, I have a 29 gallon tank for a sump. Inside the tank is an empty cat litter bucket full of Bio balls acting as a DIY wet dry filter (though I am thinking of doing away with it since so many people condemn them), my UV filter, and my skimmer. I keep the water level just high enough to reach the bottom of the litter bucket so I don't have to listen to the dripping noise.

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You can make the sump out of anything. I've used a tote (I recommend a clear one). I still have a HOB overflow. I put it in the corner so it is out of sight as much as is possible. My return pump claims to be 1900 gallons per hour for my 125, but I cannot even begin to guess the head loss and the loss from the small nozzle I use. I've heard the statistic of 4-6 times your tank volume per hour, but I think there is some degree of preference involved.

If it were me, I would start with an empty tank or a clear tote and just try it out. You can always use your return pump and overflow box on a fancy expensive sump later if you need to. Just be careful about how tall it is. You want to be able to install/remove equipment and reach anything you drop.

Good luck!

 

[NeedBiggerTank]

I thought about a tote - but doesn't the plastic mean you can't use a heater in your sump that way? I'd love to get my heater out of my display if possible. I know the rubbermaid tanks/troughs are heater frendly (we use them on our farm), but I don't have that kind of room.

I've found 3 types of continuous flow overflow boxes - Tom Aquarium, Reef Octopus & CPR. The question is what size? Go for 600gph or 800gph? In reading articles and stuff, their gph rating is under optimum conditions - and rarely make that max gph rating. So does one overshoot and go larger?

Do you use a "sock" or not? They've got a great pre-made sump inlet assembly attachment available at Foster & Smith (see below).

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16746

I wonder if anyone has gone into the business of being a "personal shopper" for reef enthusiasts. LOL

Thanks estutesman for the info. Appreciate it!

 

[poolkeeper1]

Keep reading and asking ??? You are doing fine all by yourself. As far as a sump goes if you plan on upgrading any time soon just go the cheap route, If you are keeping it long term do the best for your needs. It's easy to add baffles before you install the sump but a big pain if you don't and find that you needed them because your tank is now full of micro bubbles. Those Octopus Overflows are pretty good and Sean Carry's them @ EBay.
I have a 40gal 36x18x12H sump, That had the baffles removed (You can put them back) if you want to. It is drilled on the upper side but that can be covered with a piece of glass and silicone or used as a return back to the sump and use a drop in pump. PM me if your interested.
Bill

 

[Pickupman66]

Jennie,

you may want to check out www.melevsreef.com. you will find a TON of sump building information there. Melev is a Master builder.

Here are my thoughts:

1. I placed baffles in my old sum to create compartments. I had a section where the water entered and then flowed in to another chamber where my skimmer and heater were. it then went thru a set designed to reduce bubbles and then a larger section where the pump was.

2. The baffle thickness will depends on your size. I think this was all 1/4" acrylic. you just dont want it to flex so much that it breaks teh seal or cracks. I liked acrylic siliconed into my old tank cause I could do whatever I wanted.

3. I believe GE silicone 1 is the stuff folks use. whatever you buy, make sure it is 100% silicone with no microbial or anti mildew agents. you can buy all glass brand at the LFS, or order a RTV (higher adhesion) silicone from the folks at Glass cages or an online store. I like to get mine in the larger tubes and use it with a caulk gun. bear in mind, it dont have to be neat, just functional.

4. Not necessarily. those that use the large rubbermaid tubs dont have baffles. mine does to lead the water the direction I want. I personally prefer a true seperate section for the return pump as that is where teh water level will fluctuate. all other chambers will stay the same when the system is running. If you are not going to do an auto top off at first, I recommend a large return pump area as this gives more room for drawdown so you arent putting water in every single day to keep thepump submerged.

Speaking of pumps, I loved my Mag Drive 9.5 on my old 75. it was a Hoss and performed flawlessly for 6 years.

 

[NeedBiggerTank]

Bill - my cabinet is only 16" wide inside, so your sump is too large (too bad, cause it would have saved me some $).

Lindsey - I have been to Melevsreef - found that site some time ago. There is alot of stuff out there. But so much of the information there and elsewhere seems to be guided by personal preferance (which I don't have yet, since I've never had a sump!)

Speaking of auto-topoff, could I use one of these 5 gallon "jugs" to supply auto-topoff water to the sump? What to you do - just connect it with tubing and use some sort of valve with a float (like in a toilet)? I saw this when I was browsing for parts last night:

JBJ Auto Top Off Controller

Anybody use one of these?

 

[nightfire]

i havent done this yet but i'll be doing an auto top off that is continuous....in ther words it never stops....trying to get an aqualifter pump for it but it can be done as a drip with a valve at the end to get maybe a drop of water a second or so.....as long as ya set a jug or whatever above the hight of the sump and run the line then ya will be ok....only prob that happens with that is if there is a power loss then it will contiune to throw water into the sump,there by throwing off the salinity.....but ya can always check ya salinity after ya see its done that.....i think though i'll stick tohaving an aqualifter pump

 

[Pickupman66]

Jennie,

That will work to do what you want it to regarding top off. there are also other less expensive ways of doing it. you can use a 5 gallong jug, bucket etc.. get an aqualifter pump and some top off float switch kits that will do it for you. Currently I am employing this method in my 180. I have a home made float switch that turns on the aqualifter pump which pumps water from a remove reservoir in the garage. If you can fit the 5 gallon jug and the sump under your tank, that is a plus. I am not that familiar with your tank placement and setup so im not 100% sure for you.

on my 75, I had a bin in teh garage up high that ran a tube down to the sump where I had a float valve that controlled the water level. this worked great in that old setup.

 

[nightfire]

if ya cant fit the jug/bucket...etc under the tank then ya can place it outside the stand like i will do and hide it in one of those covered walmart boxes that you can take the top off and on and it looks like a stool of sorts....they have em in the furniture department like in this pic and they also have nicer looking ones as well

 

[fishdoc11]

Looks like you are getting lots of good info here. Here is the sump I had on my 90. Glass 30 long with plexiglass baffles secured with aquarium silicone. Water comes in on the right with the skimmer...goes out on the left. Very simple effective sump design:

Here is the sump I used on my 120. Very similar design only it's an acrylic 40 breeder with the acrylic baffles glued in with weld on. Water moves right to left in this one as well:

hth, Chris

 

[NeedBiggerTank]

Thanks for all the photos - they are very helpful!

 

[NeedBiggerTank]

Got nowhere on my sump project today and I'm a bit bummed... Petsmart did't have a tank and HomeDepot had nothing useful either (except for cheap black flexible tubing - but I didn't know what size to get). Didn't realize this would be a treasure hunt. LOL

 

[Pickupman66]

Jennie, whatcha looking for? post up the parts you are needing to aquire.. there may be a bunch of extra around here.

 

[nightfire]

yea i have glass and pvc laying around here even some lexon

 

[NeedBiggerTank]

Well, I guess I have to get the actual sump first - not sure why I thought I could just walk right into petsmart and buy one! I'm looking at one of the following:

All Glass (Aqueon) 30 gallon (36" X 12" X 16")
Glass Cages 27 gallon (36" X 12.5" X 13")

A 20 gallon just wouldn't be big enough I don't think - for heater, skimmer, media, etc. I'll get which ever one is cheaper w/ a glass lid.

I still need to check out Lowe's - but Home Depot didn't have aquarium grade silicone (nothing that could be submerged), didn't have thick glass (only window pane glass) or the ability to cut glass. They did have acylic sheets for $60 a piece that were the right thickness - but I'd also have to buy a tool to cut it with. Decided that was all too expensive. I think Lowe's has thicker glass and free cutting to size.

Becuase my tank is placed differently from I think everyone else's, I don't want to use PVC - but flexible tubing (this they did have at Home Depot). Our 90 is place at a right angle to the wall - it divides our kitchen and sitting room, So the typical "back" of the aquarium is actually another front. In other words, it's see through from one long side to the other long side (you can sit in the kitchen on on 4" side of the tank and see through to the sitting room on the other 4" side of the tank). The short 18" ends of the tank are the "backs" of the tank. Our reef is split into three zones - a reef on each "end" and a central island.

I plan to install ball or gate valves on the flexible tubing like my Eheim has for water changes and for adjusting flow rate (unless there is a better method). Plan to use black flexible tubing instead of the green Eheim or clear tubing to inhibit algae growth.

Still trying to decide what overflow box and return pump to get. Will also need an aqualifter pump (unles I go w/ the TOM overflow - it comes with one).

Haven't decided if I want to set up the auto top off at the same time. The 5 gallon jug should fit under the cabinet w/ the sump - however, all my test kits and chemicals will have to find a new home!

Am I forgetting anything?

 

[nightfire]

sounds like ya have a good plan....have pics of the tank by chance? seeing it may help us help ya twick ya plan

 

[NeedBiggerTank]

The first design.. no laughing!

The first design.. no laughing!

So here is the first "draft" of my sump. Can't find my photoshop or Illustrator software... so I'll appologize in advance for the crude Paintshop version!

I've noticed some sump designs have teeth and some don't... can you put teeth in glass or just acrylic? Advantages to having teeth?

Comments? Suggestions? Just try not to laugh too hard! :lolspin:

 

[fishdoc11]

I'm not laughing, looks better than any drawing I would post

That looks great. I like the idea of the area where water comes from the tank. 2 things to think about. You probably won't want to run a filter sock all the time. They are good when cleaning the tank or for a day or two but IME running one all the time requires changing them every 3 or 4 days. Personally I don't end up doing maintenance stuff to the tank as much as I intend to and the sock ends up leaching phosphate and other DOC's back into the water column. Also you will want the exit of the water comming out below water level in the sump for noise and bubble reasons.

The teeth are to help prevent snails from crawling over into the area where the return pump is so they don't get sucked up and do damage. IME they don't seem to stopped by this and as long as the pump has a good screen it doesn't matter much. It would be really hard to cut them in glass.

hth, Chris

 

[NeedBiggerTank]

I'm not planning on having any snails in my sump... but that begs the question - do you all keep snails in your sump to eat any algea that grows? Hadn't actually thought of that. Won't know if our CPR refugium will fit under the stand w/ the new sump until the tank arrives. We'll just have to see.

Is it possible to attach fine screen of some type to the top of one of the baffles and then attach it to the side of the next baffle over in the bubble trap to keep anything from going into the return pump area? Or would that be a nightmare to clean?

What screen material is salt-water safe? Nylon?

 

[NeedBiggerTank]

I have a roll of black fiberglass screen material. Would this be safe to use under water? What do you use to attach it to things? It would come in hady to cover some things to keep fish/snails/hermits out of things.