Taking a Mulligan

[Capt.Nemo]

I'm still reasonably new to the hobby, about a year, but less than 6 month with salt.
been running a 29 gal and trying to go slow. guys at LFS say I'm doing pretty good with it.
so I am hooked and pulled work bonuses, incentive, OT and Xmas money. just got me a nice 75 gal. pretty pumped. noticing in the 29 some potential pests in 29, bristles and what looks to be baby snails with no shell, no idea whether they hurting or not. I am going pretty all out here. new T5 quad lighting, glass canopy, new canister filter for 150g, stand and some fresh dry rock (Pukani) and obviously the tank.
I guess my real question is, would it be beneficial for me to pressure wash and scrub my existing live rock to remove these potential pests?
I will be ditching the existing sand as it is too fine for my tastes and very susceptible to sand storms. plus I think all the bugs are in there.

what do ya think?

 

[ZeeSparrow]

Bristleworms are good, and snails without a shell could be stomatella snails which are also good. I'd suggest confirming what you think are potential pests ARE in fact pests before you do anything drastic.

 

[jsnrho82]

Bristleworms are good, and snails without a shell could be stomatella snails which are also good. I'd suggest confirming what you think are potential pests ARE in fact pests before you do anything drastic.

I totally agree with this!


I doubt you have any real pests, sounds like beneficial hitchhikers to me.

 

[Capt.Nemo]

I am trying to read up and learn as fast as I can. that's what I am finding out is that they can be beneficial. I just know also, that when things go south, they can go south in a hurry.
was contemplating a vinegar bath, but maybe I will just give them a good sturdy rinse and brush as a manner of population control.

appreciate the wisdom guys.

 

[CStrickland]

FWIW I'd pump the brakes on a new canister filter, and the Pukani can be nice if you commit to cooking it before use, otherwise it's frequently a phosphate problem.

If you can find the live link for the chucks addiction hitchhiker id guide, it's very good. They changed their website and I'm afraid I didn't bookmark the new one but I'm sure if you google it you can find most everything that lives on your rock there and decide if it's worth killing. Also, if you post pics we can help you figure out what you've got.

The rocks you have now are full of good stuff too, a reset is a hassle you don't want to undertake if you don't have to IMO.

 

[kmbyrnes]

I agree with CStrickland, a canister is not what you want on a reef, or any big tank for that matter.
Your rock from the 29 can be used a colonizers for the 75, as long as they don't have really bad pest like bubble algae or aiptasia. Otherwise, they bring nothing but good.
I used 5 lbs of rock from my reef sump to start the cycle in my 350 and it cycled in just 3 weeks.
Good luck on your new tank and enjoy the ride!

 

[Capt.Nemo]

I agree with CStrickland, a canister is not what you want on a reef, or any big tank for that matter.
Your rock from the 29 can be used a colonizers for the 75, as long as they don't have really bad pest like bubble algae or aiptasia. Otherwise, they bring nothing but good.
I used 5 lbs of rock from my reef sump to start the cycle in my 350 and it cycled in just 3 weeks.
Good luck on your new tank and enjoy the ride!

I'm sure its my Noobism, but why no canister filter???

better than a couple HOB's, No?

 

[Sk8r]

A canister filter increases nitrate levels. No-filter allows live rock and sand bacteria to dispose of nitrate and convert it to nitrogen gas.

There's a really good beginner file up in the stickies. Called SETTING UP. It'll head you off from a raft of mistakes---many costing money. [top]

 

[sde1500]

Yea if you are going all out, I'd do it right and skip the canister filter. Get a sump and protein skimmer.

 

[A1t2o]

Live rock and sand does all the work of a canister or hob filter but better. You can add something for mechanical filtration, but that is usually added in as a filter sock in the sump. Plus you have to change/wash the mechanical every couple days if not every day or all you are doing is trapping the detritus in a place with high flow so it can decay.

Basically, a canister filter is a shortcut that does less than a sump for more money.

 

[jonwright]

Actually...

Actually...

Resist the urge to do something drastic - give things a chance to even out or allow your actions to guide them.

I don't fret too much about hitchhikers that may be "bad" as there are many more you'll never see. When you observe that they are a problem (and you know what that problem is) THEN do something.

Understand what problem you are trying to fix, then set to fix it. Not that you need to let something get outta hand.

Right about now you have a lot of stuff to learn, rebooting your tank is not worth a couple bristle worms IMO. Few annoying pests are worth that, unless you run into an untenable situation. Many pests do have a function - some folks actually grow aiptasia in sumps. I have a couple "pest" anemones that I haven't done anything to eliminate. They just hang out, don't move and really don't bother anything. Some folks would be freaking out about them. They aren't doing any harm or taking over the tank so I've let them be.

Tank reboot in your situation to me is like burning down your house because you saw a couple spiders on your porch. Think how many flies and annoying bugs they are catching!

I have a mantis right now in my 155. Although he's eating barnacles he's not awful enough to warrant tearing apart my rock work and risking all the cool life and my time to get just him. Some folks might tear their tank apart. I'm not there.

 

[Sk8r]

On a load of live rock I got 50 species of stuff you can't usually buy---it just happens, or doesn't, on rock. I got about 3 species that could be a problem if you don't know how to deal with it, but all of them were deal-able. Watching live rock blossom out in a webwork of strange stuff and little weird creatures you never expected, like barnacles, that look like a wispy, constantly moving radar dish---you can't get those from stores. They just travel on the rock.

 

[Capt.Nemo]

well, one thing you guys have me convinced on is the life forms existing from my live rock. I still may lightly flush the rock with salt water, but nothing drastic.
as far as the canister filter, I'm still a bit confused. I know what the live rock and the live sand can do, and I don't want you guys to think I am not trusting your experience. but its filtration? I need some sort of filtration??? NO???

again, not doubting the experience. I am just the type of person, when someone says press "cntrl- alt- delete" on a computer, I'm not going to do it. I want to understand why.

I am looking at some of the Stickies that Sk8r recommended, and of course watching plenty of YouTube. this is the first I have heard negative on canister. sump is just too damn expensive for something I don't completely understand.
I can be a bit thick sometimes, but I am trying.

thanks again folks, this is an educational process.

 

[CStrickland]

The bacteria that live on the surfaces of your tank are the primary filtration in a marine system.
In addition to the sticky linked, the term "nitrate factory" is commonly used to describe the ways that mechanical filtration can work against your system if improperly maintained (as mentioned, canister filters are difficult to maintain properly). There are some good threads on nitrate factories, a search using that term should help clear it up.
This http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/2/beginner
And this http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/9/beginner
May be helpful as well.

 

[Sk8r]

The sump is nothing but an extra tank where water goes to get a second cleaning. Your skimmer lives there---a little box with a pump of its own that sends bubbles into the water it sucks in, causing froth (amino acids you don't want) to rise into a cup that you empty to remove a major nastiness from your system. The liquid is brown to greenish black, if that gives you a cue. IT's the toilet of your tank. Water falling down to this sump can go through a filter sock that is nothing but a very fine bag, which you wash every few days. That gets the particulate out. You may opt to have a light (a 100 watt CFL floodlight in a shoplight base will do) on a batch of cheato moss, which makes that sump a 'refugium,' a green area where oxygenation happens bigtime, plus where little microlife bugs multiply, (free fish food)---then it goes to your 'return pump,' the BIG pump that shoots the water back to your tank to do it all again. To make this all work, you need a 'downflow box,' which contains a standpipe and drain that will stop draining when the water in the box falls low---this prevents your tank from draining down to the sump when the power quits. That hose goes down to your sump, and another hose comes back to the tank itself (not to the downflow box) to return the water just treated down below. Sumps are actually very convenient things, giving you a place to put a float switch to automatically add fresh water to make up for evaporation (salt doesn't evaporate, but a 50 gallon tank may evaporate a gallon a day) and also a place where you can hide that ugly skimmer. YOur 'return pump' is submersible, and lives in the sump itself---although there are some (the larger pumps) that are not submersible and connect on with a hose. Generally if you set up a sump from the beginning and get it all working, I doubt you will ever say you're sorry you have one.

 

[sticky polyps]

http://www.lionfishlair.com/hitchhiker.shtml
Personally, I would not ever never ever never set up a reef tank that size without a sump. All you need for biological filteration is live rock. The surface area on the live rock is sufficient to allow nitrifying bacteria to colonize. A sand bed one and a half inches or thicker is sufficient For denitrifying bacteria to actually remove some nitrates that build up up.. I run a 200 µm filter sock on the drain of the tank to my sump because in my experience switching it out every three days for a clean one is much more convenient than my other equipment getting clogged much faster with debris. So there is your mechanical filteration.. Also you can use just about anything for a sump, like a starilite storage bin.
And, for me a powerful protein skimmer is a no brainier. Besides keeping fish and growing corals, watching my skimmer pull out everything nasty that's in my water is my favorite part of this hobby. Hope you forget about a canister filter.. U will be glad you did.

 

[jsnrho82]

The only time I have seen a canister filter put to use in reef keeping is when you need to run carbon for a while to clean out flatworm exit or something similar.

As others have said, live rock will do the heavy lifting in your tank. Let what you have ride for a bit and see how things shake out. If you can add a sump (as previously stated, this can literally be anything that holds water) you will have a good place to keep some of the necessary but unsightly equipment, but if not, no biggie. There are tanks out there that run without one.

 

[jonwright]

So canister filters can have their place. However, as folks have said it really requires some diligent maintenance m folks have run successful tanks with them.

However, the fun and challenge with reef tanks is to have the critters do the work for you. It's much more than the fish. Actually the fish are a really small part.

But do what's comfortable for you.

For some folks the critters on the live rock is awesome to see what you get. Mostly good, some bad. For others they can't stand the idea of not having complete control. Whatever works for you.

 

[neededahobby]

....as far as the canister filter, I'm still a bit confused. I know what the live rock and the live sand can do, and I don't want you guys to think I am not trusting your experience. but its filtration? I need some sort of filtration??? NO???

again, not doubting the experience. I am just the type of person, when someone says press "cntrl- alt- delete" on a computer, I'm not going to do it. I want to understand why.

I am looking at some of the Stickies that Sk8r recommended, and of course watching plenty of YouTube. this is the first I have heard negative on canister. sump is just too damn expensive for something I don't completely understand.
I can be a bit thick sometimes, but I am trying.

thanks again folks, this is an educational process.

The live rock really does act as the filtration! This is especially true for the larger tanks. Going from 29G to 75G is a big step up and you can really establish a somewhat self filtering system if you do it right.

For filtration all you really NEED is live rock and a good protein skimmer. (which is why everyone says get a sump - that is where the skimmer goes!)
And a sump can literally be a plastic trash can - it doesn't have to be expensive.


In addition to youtube - see if your local library/amazon has some good books on reef keeping. I recommend "The New Reef Aquarium" by Schmoyer
and also "Saltwater Fish and Reef Tanks" by Blanchard

most important get books that are NEWER (this hobby seems to have had big changes in the past 5-10 years) and look at more than 1 author since you get slightly different advice from each and the differences are informative