taking fish from the ocean

[Delta111444]

hi guys

i just wanted to talk about all of your diffrent views on taking fish from the sea

i myself just watched a few different videos on opeon ocean lemonpeel angles and other fish taken from there home and i totally changed my view on everything. i believe this hobby is a great one but watching thoose fish taken from there homes defiantly did not bring my frown upside down.. espically when i thought where thoose fish would end up,places like petco where they could suffer a slow death from low oxygen, amonnia and being crammed into really small tanks with other, whereas a few days ago they were probably swimming in the ocean whever they wanted.
this really made me rethink how many fish to have even in a 240 gallon tank

 

[hollister]

Where do u think most of the fish come from. This site exclusively unique and wild captured stock. Divers Den.


http://www.liveaquaria.com/diversden/index.cfm

 

[Gandolfe]

yes but in a home tank they get food regularly, no predators after them 24/7, and they usually live longer then in the wild. And by the way that site is way too frigging expensive!.for example.... a mushroom rock for $129.99 when they are less than $40 in any LFS

 

[Mr. Bill]

It's good that you received some insight, Delta. One can't stress enough the need to provide adequate swimming space for your pets. While some do adapt well to captive life, others simply do not and IMOPE, may become lethargic and stop eating if not given enough room to grow to maturity and still feel free.

 

[Mr. Bill]

yes but in a home tank they get food regularly, no predators after them 24/7...

While this is entirely true, fish don't have the mental capacity to make that deduction.

BTW, Per the reason given in my previous post, only some live longer in captivity. Others live a short, lonely, stressful life before giving up.

 

[TheGodParticle]

yes but in a home tank they get food regularly, no predators after them 24/7, and they usually live longer then in the wild. And by the way that site is way too frigging expensive!.for example.... a mushroom rock for $129.99 when they are less than $40 in any LFS

Whoever told you that fish live longer in captivity then in the ocean lied to you, plain and simple. This is a common myth that people tell themselves in order to justify buying a fish. Moorish Idols are the easiest example of this. The average fish in the ocean probably has a lifespan of around 10-14 years. The average lifespan for a fish in captivity by the average hobbyist is probably less then 2 years I'd be willing to bet. There's far to many factors that play and fluctuate in a home aquarium than in the ocean. Having predators after them 24/7 is also a debunked myth, once again its simply not true. This is just a "noble" thought that people try and tell themselves. By those standards we should just take everything out of the wild because it will live longer and we will eliminate natural selection. It's simply not true.

P.S. that site is stupid expensive. They want $1200 for an XL Crosshatch Trigger. I got an XL Crosshatch from my LFS for $325. I will always support my LFS over a live animals website unless they absolutely can't get something. Dry goods on the other hand is a different story.

 

[Michigan Mike]

Is taking very small/juvenile fish better than larger fish? I do like seeing more tank bred fish but there are not many at all. The truth is our "hobby" is hurting the oceans, alot of fish that were once in large numbers at collection sites are now a fraction of what they once where, and it's only a matter of time until some populations are decimated( like cardinal fish - which can be tank bred, right? ) any thoughts?

 

[on the spot]

...and still feel free.

...fish don't have the mental capacity to make that deduction...

This thread is a train wreck coming, and I'm

I am all in for conservation and stewardship however hyperbole, anthropomorphism, and my favorite blind guesses won't help much. Lines in the sand pits nuts against the trees so to speak.

 

[mgraf]

Whoever told you that fish live longer in captivity then in the ocean lied to you, plain and simple. This is a common myth that people tell themselves in order to justify buying a fish. Moorish Idols are the easiest example of this. The average fish in the ocean probably has a lifespan of around 10-14 years. The average lifespan for a fish in captivity by the average hobbyist is probably less then 2 years I'd be willing to bet. There's far to many factors that play and fluctuate in a home aquarium than in the ocean. Having predators after them 24/7 is also a debunked myth, once again its simply not true. This is just a "noble" thought that people try and tell themselves. By those standards we should just take everything out of the wild because it will live longer and we will eliminate natural selection. It's simply not true.

I guess maybe that could be true about a Morish idol, however, I am sure the same thing cannot be said about all fish.
Here comes the "high and mightiest". Have you ever looked around your home or neighborhood, even your town or city. What about all the poor animals that had to perish so you could live the lifestyle you choose to live. Watch a video about fish collection and feel bad, look in your own backyard and feel even worse.

 

[immokalee98]

I don't think we have to worry about fish in their natural habitat. They were here much longer than we (humans) were and certainly know how to take care of themselves in the ocean.

Our knowledge of how to make an aquarium closer to the ocean environment is what increases the chance of your fish living longer. If your tank is stable and you acclimate properly, your fish should do fine (all except Moorish Idols of course)

 

[Fin Mike]

Whoever told you that fish live longer in captivity then in the ocean lied to you, plain and simple

. Really? How do you know? Please back up your statement with fact and cite your evidence for all to see.

This is a common myth that people tell themselves in order to justify buying a fish.

Maybe, maybe not. There is a good chance that my specimens will live longer in captivity than in the ocean.

Moorish Idols are the easiest example of this.

Extremely easy! Lets throw in the CBB's and the regal angels too.

The average fish in the ocean probably has a lifespan of around 10-14 years.

Really? Which fish? The average cigar minnow or the average whale shark?

The average lifespan for a fish in captivity by the average hobbyist is probably less then 2 years I'd be willing to bet. There's far to many factors that play and fluctuate in a home aquarium than in the ocean.

Two totally different situations. In the ocean, disease and predation will be the ultimate demise of 99.9% of all fish. In the home aquarium, disease, stress, old age, "jumping" and simple neglect are going to be the demise of 99% of all captive fish.

Having predators after them 24/7 is also a debunked myth, once again its simply not true.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Every creature in the ocean dies and every one gets eaten, either by predators or by scavengers. Either way, nothing is wasted. If a fish shows the first sign of weakness, it will be selected out. I know. I'm a spearfisherman and I see it all the time.

This is just a "noble" thought that people try and tell themselves. By those standards we should just take everything out of the wild because it will live longer and we will eliminate natural selection. It's simply not true.

Well, we as humans have taken ourselves out of the "wild" and therefore we are the only species on earth that is not subject to natural selection in our own controlled environment. Put ourselves back in the "wild", and I guarantee we are subject to natural selection.

I don't mean to pick on you or be disrespectful, but your rhetoric is the kind of tripe that gets hobbies like this one banned. :thumbdown

 

[Meus]

This all comes down to morals. You can justify all you want, it can help with making a decision. But in the end it comes down to, are you OK with how the system works? While some fish may live longer in captivity, many more die on the way from collection, to wholesale, to retail. And they still have a pretty high chance of dying after retail, many come from newbs, crashes, improper setups, or mistakes made by their keepers. There are no facts for average life in captivity v. in the wild. We can only speculate, thus, IMHO there is no point in arguing about it.

 

[Delta111444]

wow guys lots of posts

honestly i wish i was seeing more tank bred that being beacuse it not only helps wild populations but if people can tank breed something, most likely theyre doing good of taking care of their fish (even though they might sell to somewhere like petco or even walmart if they still sell fish) it still helps

all in all though we cant really stop horrible and stupid people from abusing their fish and keeping them in horrible conditions just so they can get money, it would take someone big for that

people dont know what these fish have been through, abducted and now basically imprisoned we need to give them our best shot (it all depends on how much the owner cares, that will determine how long they'll live) and should not go after ribbion eels or, like you guys said, moorish idols just because they look elegant or want

 

[mgraf]

Worrying about hurting wild populations......are any of you aware of what is taking place in our oceans? If you think the number one problem with wild populations of fish is the capture by humans for the hobby. What about over fishing of cod and tuna to feed us. What about the increase of carbon that is causing acidification of our ocean that is destroying our reefs. What about all the hazardous materials dumped into the ocean by humans every day? Our oceans are in big trouble, but it isn't only from our hobby. Thinking you are saving the sea by purchasing captive bred fish is only a mechanism used by us to make us feel better. Meanwhile....the giant mass of trash, visible from space, is still growing in the pacific.

 

[Chris27]

There just aren't enough people in the hobby to motor though a population of reef fish...and if there were, they don't stay in the hobby long enough to cause any long term damage.

There is on the other hand enough people in the world who like delicious tuna, and a lot of it.....me included. Overfishing has been a problem since the beginning of time, anything is when it is a food source. You can lump a number of other creatures into that equation, like buffalo and whales. A reef fish will make an islander a few pennies per, whereas a tuna can net someone 1000's. I know what I would be concerning myself with in the event fishing was my profession.

I agree, there are far bigger fish to fry...:eek1:..then taking a few measly yellow tangs from the 300 million cubic miles of ocean mother nature has to offer.

 

[Delta111444]

i also aggre with your overfishing statment

while our hobby does have a small impact (SMALL) overfishing is a bigger cause and most people who say our hobby is killing thousands of fish cant say thats true when they buy and eat tuna, which DOES kill thousads of fish,if not more

along with what mgraf said about pollution which kill Hundreds of thousands of sea life

 

[TheGodParticle]

.
I don't mean to pick on you or be disrespectful, but your rhetoric is the kind of tripe that gets hobbies like this one banned. :thumbdown

Haha, this is laughable kid. I won't take any offense from somebody naive enough to believe anything you've said. Especially since you said or proved nothing to dismantle my argument. Riddle me this Batman. Exactly when was the last time you were able to breed a pair of purple tangs in your "ocean" when exactly was the last time you spawned a pair of Emperor Angels? Have you ever been able to raise the fry of a Longnose Butterfly? I could go on if you'd like? Wait, don't answer those questions because I already know the answer. You haven't and you never will! If we could take out every "aquarium fish" (please don't insert foolish things like humpback whales or great white sharks in here) in the ocean then we would have no hobby (I'm not including corals here) within 20 years, with the exception of maybe some clownfish, cardinals, and a few others. Basically less then 1% of species. There's a reason they've been doing for millions of years and we can't do it at all. We can only TRY to recreate the ocean in our homes. Those of us who do it with success are the EXCEPTION, NOT THE RULE. Don't worry though I won't even include the thousands of fish that die every year in transport. Or how about the thousands of threads on this very forum that go something like this "HELP!!!! My fish died and I don't know why!" Or "HELP, I have a sick fish!" Or the thousands that die from neglect. Nor will I include the "Are these compatible?"

So please don't try and sit here and tell me how you are the expert aquarist and you can keep every fish there expected life span. Fish do things in the ocean that we can't and haven't ever replicated. We as hobbyists only break the cycle of some of the most important things they do. It's better to be thought of as a fool then to open your mouth and erase all doubt.

Please there's no need to respond. You can provide absolutely no factual evidence that suggests that we can keep fish better than in the ocean, except for maybe the less then 1%. Yes lots of people have kept fish for their lifespan or in a better environment but remember we are the exception not the rule. As soon as you can breed a pair of Sohal Tangs then we'll talk.

 

[TheGodParticle]

i also aggre with your overfishing statment

while our hobby does have a small impact (SMALL) overfishing is a bigger cause and most people who say our hobby is killing thousands of fish cant say thats true when they buy and eat tuna, which DOES kill thousads of fish,if not more

along with what mgraf said about pollution which kill Hundreds of thousands of sea life

Delta your absolutely right. However, what's the one thing all of the above have in common..... Human interference. With that being said, I'll continue to enjoy eating my Tuna and Salmon while I watch my fish swim around in my aquarium.

 

[Spyderturbo007]

There is on the other hand enough people in the world who like delicious tuna, and a lot of it.....me included.

Too bad Bluefin Tuna is no longer available anywhere near me. I can't get it in any grocery store, nor does any restaurant around here have it on their menu. The same with Black Tip Shark. Wegman's won't sell it anymore since it's not sustainable. I guess that's a good thing, but those happened to be my two favorite fish.

 

[Fin Mike]

Whoever told you that fish live longer in captivity then in the ocean lied to you, plain and simple. This is a common myth that people tell themselves in order to justify buying a fish. Moorish Idols are the easiest example of this. The average fish in the ocean probably has a lifespan of around 10-14 years. The average lifespan for a fish in captivity by the average hobbyist is probably less then 2 years I'd be willing to bet. There's far to many factors that play and fluctuate in a home aquarium than in the ocean. Having predators after them 24/7 is also a debunked myth, once again its simply not true. This is just a "noble" thought that people try and tell themselves. By those standards we should just take everything out of the wild because it will live longer and we will eliminate natural selection. It's simply not true.

P.S. that site is stupid expensive. They want $1200 for an XL Crosshatch Trigger. I got an XL Crosshatch from my LFS for $325. I will always support my LFS over a live animals website unless they absolutely can't get something. Dry goods on the other hand is a different story.

Haha, this is laughable kid. I won't take any offense from somebody naive enough to believe anything you've said. Especially since you said or proved nothing to dismantle my argument. Riddle me this Batman. Exactly when was the last time you were able to breed a pair of purple tangs in your "ocean" when exactly was the last time you spawned a pair of Emperor Angels? Have you ever been able to raise the fry of a Longnose Butterfly? I could go on if you'd like? Wait, don't answer those questions because I already know the answer. You haven't and you never will! If we could take out every "aquarium fish" (please don't insert foolish things like humpback whales or great white sharks in here) in the ocean then we would have no hobby (I'm not including corals here) within 20 years, with the exception of maybe some clownfish, cardinals, and a few others. Basically less then 1% of species. There's a reason they've been doing for millions of years and we can't do it at all. We can only TRY to recreate the ocean in our homes. Those of us who do it with success are the EXCEPTION, NOT THE RULE. Don't worry though I won't even include the thousands of fish that die every year in transport. Or how about the thousands of threads on this very forum that go something like this "HELP!!!! My fish died and I don't know why!" Or "HELP, I have a sick fish!" Or the thousands that die from neglect. Nor will I include the "Are these compatible?"

So please don't try and sit here and tell me how you are the expert aquarist and you can keep every fish there expected life span. Fish do things in the ocean that we can't and haven't ever replicated. We as hobbyists only break the cycle of some of the most important things they do. It's better to be thought of as a fool then to open your mouth and erase all doubt.

Please there's no need to respond. You can provide absolutely no factual evidence that suggests that we can keep fish better than in the ocean, except for maybe the less then 1%. Yes lots of people have kept fish for their lifespan or in a better environment but remember we are the exception not the rule. As soon as you can breed a pair of Sohal Tangs then we'll talk.

I'll keep this simple and let the other RC members decide. In your original post, you made statements you where referring to as facts to support your arguments. For example, "Whoever told you that fish live longer in captivity then in the ocean lied to you, plain and simple.", "The average fish in the ocean probably has a lifespan of around 10-14 years. The average lifespan for a fish in captivity by the average hobbyist is probably less then 2 years I'd be willing to bet.", "Having predators after them 24/7 is also a debunked myth, once again its simply not true." All I asked you to do was back up your statements with evidence and cite your sources. As of your second post, you have not done that. Are you going to put up, or just call me names, "Haha, this is laughable kid.", "Riddle me this Batman.", "It's better to be thought of as a fool then to open your mouth and erase all doubt." (BTW, put quotation marks around another persons statements. That's called plagiarism.)
Say what you want "thegodparticle" but the onus is on you to prove your statements; not me. Again, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Prove me wrong!