taking fish from the ocean

[daninflipflops]

interesting "discussion" and by discussion i mean two people just bickering back and forth and not really listening to the other person. as noted early on, its a moral issue. either you are or are not ok with the fact that we remove animals from their natural setting. I would say that if you are on this forum, then you are ok with it. but lets not throw out useless rhetoric to make ourselves feel better about it. the truth is, no matter what we do, the fish is no longer in its natural habitat, whether that is a 3 gallon pico, or a 10,000 gallon public aquarium.

It doesnt make us bad people that we have removed these fish from their environment, just a little bit selfish that we want something in our homes to enjoy looking at and caring for. its not like we are plucking out these fish, throwing them in a bucket on the beach and waiting for them to die (my niece!). we are spending thousands of dollars of our hard earned money caring for them. But please dont confuse this with thinking that we are improving their lives...we cannot make them as happy as they would be in nature.

just like the movie the truman show. they had a great artificial ecosystem for him, but he still wasnt happy and wanted out. same with every fish in our tank.

 

[power boat jim]

I think its time to stop personifying fish. They do not have the mental capacity to be happy or sad. They only feel stress due to a change in what they see as "normal". Therefore if a fish is stress free in an aquarium its quality of life is much the same as in the wild . Fish act mostly on instinct, if their actions , based on instinct yeild the results they are supposed to, stess can be put off. If the opposite is true, such as trying to find a hiding place while in a plastic bag, stress results. We all know excess stress in any living thing results in a breakdown in overall health.

This is why arguing whether a fish lives longer in captivity or in the wild has no real answer. It is theoretically equal as long as stress is kept to minimum. Taking a fish from the wild does remove it from the gene pool and all the arguments that go along with that are certainly valid.

A better arguement might be do current handling procedures subject marine life to stresses that are needlessly high. If the stresses were reduced during shipping would less fish die in captivity? Just my 2 cents.

 

[Paul B]

Fish act mostly on instinct, if their actions

My fish are not very smart, but when they get stressed out, they text me and let me know what I can do with my opinions. :strange:

Hi Jim, another great boating night tonight. :wavehand:

 

[daninflipflops]

I think its time to stop personifying fish. They do not have the mental capacity to be happy or sad. They only feel stress due to a change in what they see as "normal". Therefore if a fish is stress free in an aquarium its quality of life is much the same as in the wild . Fish act mostly on instinct, if their actions , based on instinct yeild the results they are supposed to, stess can be put off. If the opposite is true, such as trying to find a hiding place while in a plastic bag, stress results. We all know excess stress in any living thing results in a breakdown in overall health.

This is why arguing whether a fish lives longer in captivity or in the wild has no real answer. It is theoretically equal as long as stress is kept to minimum. Taking a fish from the wild does remove it from the gene pool and all the arguments that go along with that are certainly valid.

A better arguement might be do current handling procedures subject marine life to stresses that are needlessly high. If the stresses were reduced during shipping would less fish die in captivity? Just my 2 cents.

i agree...and let me clarify, when i said "happy" i was not referring to an emotion of the fish, i was referring to them being in a habitat that allows for their natural behavior. clearly fish in aquariums are not "happy" based on that definition, as they do not have the same behaviors as they do in the wild. i can support an argument for the fish that actually breed in aquaria, those are the species that are clearly the least stressed and not impacted by their artificial surroundings. but the rest (the majority) will not breed which is a very important instinctual habit that is done continually in the wild. Clearly our 'habitats' are not the same. thats all i was trying to get through in my previous post. like i said, it doesnt make us bad people.

 

[billsreef]

I'm weary someitme of fish even from my LFS..I was there on delivery day one day and talked to their supplier..he came directly from the keys to a Tampa store and they were putting the fish directly into there tanks after floating them for a little while..no quarentine, no acclimation...made me wonder how many other stores have this practice and how many suppliers do any quarentine at all before supplying the LFS. I am also afraid to order online because of the fact that I've had bad experiences with both fed-ex and UPS... I saw the same thing at petsmart yesterday...just floating new fish with no quarentine...The kid(clerk) said "oh we look at them in the bag, to make sure they are healthy before adding them".... This coming from an 18 year old kid who probably only had a goldfish or betta for experience

Quarantine is not normal in the trade. It's not practical at the collector, wholesale and retail level for the most part. QT'ing at that level would drastically increase prices, to the point that most people wouldn't pay. A good for instance is Diver's Den prices vs. the regular LA prices for the same fish. The DD fish will be the better fish, but it's still a niche market at the price point.

A better arguement might be do current handling procedures subject marine life to stresses that are needlessly high. If the stresses were reduced during shipping would less fish die in captivity? Just my 2 cents.

Indeed. As prices of certain species has dropped over the years, I've seen a drastic decline in the short term survivability of those species. A good example is the Bangai Cardinal. When they wholesaled for over $50 per fish, they arrived in great shape and held up like steel. When the price plummeted and they started showing up on special for under $5 per fish wholesale, they started showing up ragged and with high mortality rates A large part of it is how they treat them in the supply chain. The cheaper the fish, the more of them are crowded in the shipping bag.

 

[power boat jim]

My fish are not very smart, but when they get stressed out, they text me and let me know what I can do with my opinions. :strange:

Hi Jim, another great boating night tonight. :wavehand:

Then your fish are smarter then me!! Enjoy the boat tonite Paul, I wish mine was closer. I left mine 4 days ago and I miss it already.

 

[Paul B]

we just got back, got stuck in a big lightning storm and got soaked, but even a boating night in a lightning storm is better than staying home on land. We had a blast.

 

[power boat jim]

we just got back, got stuck in a big lightning storm and got soaked, but even a boating night in a lightning storm is better than staying home on land. We had a blast.

Glad you are back safe, some of our friends didnt heed the weather this summer and caused them to lose a boat (sunk). A few others were badly damaged in the same storm. I head for the dock at the first sign of trouble.

 

[Paul B]

We just let out more anchor line, we were only maybe a half mile from my marina and right near shore in 8' of water in a bay. So we opened up some Champagne and turned up the music a little. If I was out far someplace, I also would have headed in.
When most of the storm passed we went back to the marina and the band was still playing.

 

[mgraf]

Sure there are the fish that we can breed and raise their fry in our aquaria, but there is also many that will spawn but, we cannot get their larvae to survive in our aquariums. As research continues, not only in labs, but in our own aquariums, there will be more species we can begin to captive raise. I feel that once we can figure out a consistent way to get these larvae to the fry stage, that will open up the door for many, many species.
Just a thought.

 

[Fin Mike]

Sure there are the fish that we can breed and raise their fry in our aquaria, but there is also many that will spawn but, we cannot get their larvae to survive in our aquariums. As research continues, not only in labs, but in our own aquariums, there will be more species we can begin to captive raise. I feel that once we can figure out a consistent way to get these larvae to the fry stage, that will open up the door for many, many species.
Just a thought.

Well said!

There is no doubt that most of us cringe at the thought of the mortality rate in our hobby. I hate it.

All I can say is that we (hobbyist) are getting better at this whole saltwater "thing". Reef Culture Technologies is the perfect example of this. They are providing leadership in the area of breeding the "impossible" fish for a sustainable future. Years ago it would have been unheard of for someone to be breeding angels. If RCT is doing it, you know others are giving it a try too.

I know I have grown considerably since forums such as RC have come into existence. The free flow of ideas among fellow hobbyist will only embolden risk takers (RCT), educate the ignorant, and enhance our hobby overall. :beer:

I hate to think that our hobby could be at its 11th hour, when it really is in the beginning of a Renaissance. Pressure is mounting from forces who would like nothing more than to shut down our hobby. A day will come in the not to distant future (if not already) when we will be returning ornamentals to the ocean rather than taking them out.

Have faith! We are getting better and better and better. The ocean is a HUGE place. It would take a massive effort to extinguish a vast majority of the ornamentals taken from the ocean. Given time, they will replenish themselves in areas where they have been depleted if collecting pressures have abated.

One last thought. I "invest" in my fish, I don't just buy them. If I have to pay a premium for an investment grade fish, so be it. It will be found money in the long run, because I won't have to buy the same species of fish over and over to find a "good" one.

Reward the good retailers, and shun the irresponsible ones. Market forces will take care of the rest. Just my .02!

 

[curlykid]

is scarcity the reason why there's no tuna in any store I've been to in the past 3 months?