taking fish from the ocean

[mgraf]

I'd have to agree with Mike, I think TheGodParticle erases any doubt.
Moving forward, there is still tuna fish for sale in every grocery store in my area. Kinda funny, if people kill dolphins in the pursuit of tuna, everyone flips out. However, no one really seems to care if we wipe out the tuna as much as the dolphins.

 

[TheGodParticle]

Ahhh yes, Fin Mike, I can see you have no structural argument to make so you run back in circles. It's also obvious your not a lawyer. The burden of proof doesn't belong to me, I'm not the person claiming that if you take a fish out of it's natural habitat that I can give it better living conditions and a longer life. The burden of proof is with you, your the one claiming that fish live in better circumstances and longer lives in captivity. So prove it! There's is absolutely no data to support your argument. However, since I'm so generous I pulled a few things.

Here's an article by Dr. Amy Wolff http://www.petplace.com/fish/top-20-saltwater-fish/page1.aspx I don't need to read the article for you but it's safe to say that the average life of a fish in captivity is 2-4 years. Need I say more? Your digging yourself a giant whole here and your not getting out. So I'll give you a chance to admit you were wrong. It's okay, we are all wrong at some points in our life.

Next I went to Fishlore . com and I pulled a few random fish/Common fish sold in the hobby.
1. Purple Tang http://www.fishlore.com/profile-purpletang.htm
2. Clown Tang http://www.fishlore.com/profile-clowntang.htm Are you starting to notice a difference between the life expectancy's?
3. Niger Trigger http://www.fishlore.com/profile-niger-triggerfish.htm
4. Foxface http://www.fishlore.com/profile-magnificentrabbitfish.htm
5. Damselfish http://www.fishlore.com/profile-bluedamselfish.htm
6. An easy butterfly http://www.fishlore.com/profiles_racoon_butterflyfish.htm
7. I can go on if you'd like? But, I think you get the point. Oh, and I didn't even get to Angelfish who can have a life expectancy of 20+ years.

If you'd like we can take a poll too? Exactly how many people have had a purple tang in captivity for 10+ years? How many people have killed one in less then 10 years? I bet the second one has a much much longer list. I can personally say I've killed 2 purple tangs. One was about 3 years and one was about 5 years.

How many people have held an Angelfish in Captivity for 20+ years? I'm willing to bet not to many people. How many have killed one in less then 20 years? Oooooh Oooooh! I have!

So now I want you to answer a question: What is your plan to complete the life cycle of a fish in it's natural environment compared to in captivity. Yes, this includes breeding the fish.

Exactly how will you breed the fish in your saltwater tank to carry on the natural life cycle? By your standards since we are much better at keeping fish then in their natural environment you can surely breed all the fish you have, correct?

Exactly how many species of Tangs have you been able to breed?
Exactly how many species of Angelfish have you been able to breed?
Exactly how many species of Wrasses have you been able to breed?
Exactly how many species of Eel's have you been able to breed?
Exactly how many species of Butterfly's have you been able to breed"
Exactly how many Lionfish have you been able to breed?

Answer all of them, please.

Are you also suggestion that they live longer in captivity even though we can't complete the life cycle?

Exactly what is your plan to carry on the next generation of your fish? I mean after all you must surely have a plan since they are better off in captivity, correct?

I haven't anything else to prove. I'm right, your wrong. The evidence is in the ocean. They've been doing it successfully and living for millions of years. You can't even do something as simple as completing their natural life cycle of breeding.

We both love this hobby a lot and it's probably something we both hold very close to our hearts. But please, lets not fool ourselves with outrageous comments like your's.

Nice try.

Happy reefing.

 

[mgraf]

Actually, did you read the article? Where are there comparisons to life expectancies of captive fish compared to wild? It also says that with care they can live even longer than what the article stated. So basically, no real numbers.
In any of the articles you produced, there is no real comparison. Especially, when almost all are listed as 2-4 years or 10 or longer.
Just because you have killed so many fish doesn't make you an expert on life expectancy, just death expectancy. Maybe you were one of those people with the "Help! My fish are dying" thread.
Get some sleep and do some more research in the morning.

 

[mgraf]

When you wake up tomorrow, read this.
www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/12/fish2

 

[TheGodParticle]

Actually, did you read the article? Where are there comparisons to life expectancies of captive fish compared to wild? It also says that with care they can live even longer than what the article stated. So basically, no real numbers.
In any of the articles you produced, there is no real comparison. Especially, when almost all are listed as 2-4 years or 10 or longer.
Just because you have killed so many fish doesn't make you an expert on life expectancy, just death expectancy. Maybe you were one of those people with the "Help! My fish are dying" thread.
Get some sleep and do some more research in the morning.

Buddy, please explain to me what your plan is to breed all your fish in your aquarium. Why do you "guys" inconveniently avoid this question. Once again if you took all the fish in the ocean and stuffed them in a million different tanks we would eventually kill them all because we can't breed them. What is so difficult to understand about this? Do you not understand how this works. Quite avoiding the question and answer it. One of you please. How can you say we create a better environment for our fish yet we can't breed them? It's pointless to say we create such a longevity and awesome environment for our fish yet we can't breed them. Hello! Do you understand this? Is anybody there. Answer the question.

If keeping fish in captivity is better for them than the ocean then what is your plan to breed them? It's a simple question.

Exactly what is your plan to breed and carry on the species of your fish?

Simple, please answer.

Face it, without a natural environment we would have no hobby. We can never recreate a simple life cycle for 99% of the species we keep.

Please answer the question. Don't let those "inconvenient" facts and obstacles in your way.

 

[mgraf]

I don't plan on breeding my fish.

No one ever said (other than you), anything about breeding fish in our aquarium. It is just the dead horse you keep beatn on.

What was discussed was life expectancy of captive fish vs. fish in the wild. Because you are so determined to be "right" about something, you have changed the discussion from what it was to what you want it to be. There have actually been many more studies done on how long marine species live in our aquaria than how long they live in the wild. Too many variables in the wild compared to our aquariums. What happens when the damsel you are studying to see how long he is going to live in the wild gets sucked up by a lion fish. Does that make the life span of all damsels the same. Our reefs, not perfect for study for all species, but it does put more control into certain research.
All animals are better off in the wild, until you factor in humans and our destructive nature.

 

[alton]

Nice discussion, but the arguement of how many fish are we reproducing instead of taking from the ocean is growing very rapidly. As a matter of fact are we not going back to the ocean to see about reviving the dwindling cardinal populations? My 300 is full of corals that where either grown by me or frags from others, and yes I do have one Wesophyllia in there that I have had for about 12 years.
Ten years ago how many had full blown reefs? Today many have a full blown reef and frag corals. Ten years ago who heard of raising clownfish, seahorses, cardinals, dottybacks? And Pygmy angels are next on the list. The only thing I agree with is like I said before, if you want an adult fish then raise an adult fish. And I will admit I don't always follow this rule.

 

[Gandolfe]

By the way our hobby is helping the oceans by research, captive breeding programs with release back in the wild,etc... Humans are hurting the ocean in general. With pollution, over fishing, killing of sharks just because they are sharks, fertilizers getting into water stream etc... But definitely not this hobby, get real! And I have 2 fish that are over 7 years old, and another over 6 and a third over 4..so I guess they are really ghosts in my tanka having died long ago at 2 years. I would breed every kind of fish i have in my tanks if i could. But it is almost impossible to mimic tide cycles,lunar cyles, changing water temps, etc in a tank unless you have unlimited $$$$ Or a very large tank. They are bredding fish not known to breed in captivity..in Public aquariums... Monterey Aquarium just managed to breed Sea Dragons..one of 3 aquariums able to do so! I'm sorry I anger a "god" by saying a fish will live longer in captivity than the wild...but IMO I think they do and that's all that matters to me...and there are studies that so some fish do live longer in captivity while others don't. Yes most Fish are better in the wild, but some are better in captivity.... If it weren't for some of the artificial reefs made by humans some fish would have far less populatins as well!And by the way the 2 fish I have over 7 years are 2 of my original fish and at over 16" rather large for engineer Gobies... How many reach that length in the wild? "riddle me that batman"

 

[29144u]

This is how we learn ! I saw these same arguments applied to freshwater back in the 70's - Now the majority of fw fish are aquacultured. Yes we will make mistakes and kill animals , but honestly no one back then ever thought we would breed any sw fish let alone propagate corals. This is a good hobby and NO-ONE wants to kill fish. You take a very shortsighted view and sound a lot like snorkle bob.

 

[Paul B]

I won't get into these silly arguments but I take fish from the ocean every day, then I eat them. This weekend I had some nice calamari, raw oysters, Chilean Sea Bass, mussels, shrimp and clams. I eat fish almost every day. My family was in the seafood business so I love fish.
As for aquarium fish, it is true that no matter how long they live in our tanks, they are never bred to return to the sea. Some of my fish are 18 years old and they spawn all the time but I never returned any of them to the sea.
I guess if you have a dog we also don't breed them and return them to the wild either. :hmm2:

please explain to me what your plan is to breed all your fish in your aquarium. Why do you "guys" inconveniently avoid this question.

There, I didn't avoid that question.
As fish hobbiests, we choose to take fish for our own amusement. Some would call it selfish, wasteful, or cruel, some just call it a hobby.
But I will say that a fish is an animal that was never meant to die of old age. Almost all of them are eaten in the first few minutes of their life and the ones that grow all become food for something else. WE as humans eat millions of tons of them yearly.
If we are worried about it, we should be in another hobby. :lol2:

 

[Gandolfe]

Dont forget on occasion some of them eat us back too...LOL Sorry it's Shark Week on Discovery channel

 

[TheGodParticle]

I don't plan on breeding my fish.

No one ever said (other than you), anything about breeding fish in our aquarium. It is just the dead horse you keep beatn on.

What was discussed was life expectancy of captive fish vs. fish in the wild. Because you are so determined to be "right" about something, you have changed the discussion from what it was to what you want it to be. There have actually been many more studies done on how long marine species live in our aquaria than how long they live in the wild. Too many variables in the wild compared to our aquariums. What happens when the damsel you are studying to see how long he is going to live in the wild gets sucked up by a lion fish. Does that make the life span of all damsels the same. Our reefs, not perfect for study for all species, but it does put more control into certain research.
All animals are better off in the wild, until you factor in humans and our destructive nature.

Breeding has everything to do with the life cycle of a fish though. It's in thier nature to reproduce. If we can't breed them then we are not fulfilling their life cycle. We don't fulfill their life cycle in captivity because 99% of us can't and won't breed them. The expectancy of a fish in the wild is to reach maturity to breed. They don't just do it for fun. Yes, lots of those probably don't reach that age or something happens and they don't breed. But so far the ocean has us by a long shot.

To many people are starting to change the subject, its getting into, fishing, eating, destroying the ocean and being eaten by sharks as well as corals which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of fish, captive vs wild. That's not what the subject is about.

My apologies if I came off as cocky or a jerk that wasn't my intention.

Maybe they can't be compared due to the vast difference of expectancy's between the two lives, captive vs. wild. I just know there are things that take place in the ocean in a fishes life expectancy between fish they we can't and probably won't ever be able to replicate in our tanks (like breeding).

So respectfully I will agree to disagree with some of you. This is a hobby that we all hold close to us.

 

[mgraf]

Agreed

 

[Fishbulb2]

I don't know. It kind of made me feel bad today. I received a box of fish in the mail today for my tank and it had a 90% dead sideways-swimming bicolor angel in it. My first thought was that I would never mail order delicate fish again and that they are just not meant to be shipped. Instead I'd just buy them from the fish store. Then I immediately realized that my LFS probably receives dozens of dead pigmy angels a month. Then multiply that buy the large number of LFS's in my area and by the number or large cities in this country. And then consider other countries. Must just be millions of these reef fishes dumped into the trash dead from shipping everyday.

Anyways, I built this whole tank with dry rock and dry sand. I ordered about 15 frags from a fellow reefer and they arrived great and are thriving. I never felt bad about it. My wife and I discussed doing an all captive bred tank as well but the options were just dismal. No main attraction fish to be had. Just little clowns, little cardinals, and a purple orchid maybe. So we went wild caught and it was kind of sad. Oh well, maybe by the time my next build comes around we'll have more options. I'm truly rooting for companies that captive breed. They have a hard uphill battle to fight considering how cheap it is to "rip and ship it" when it comes to fish.

FB

(note: the views in this post represent only the opinions of the author. If you do not share these opinions that is OK. It does not mean there is anything wrong with either one of us).

 

[KafudaFish]

Breeding has everything to do with the life cycle of a fish though. It's in thier nature to reproduce. If we can't breed them then we are not fulfilling their life cycle. We don't fulfill their life cycle in captivity because 99% of us can't and won't breed them. The expectancy of a fish in the wild is to reach maturity to breed. They don't just do it for fun. Yes, lots of those probably don't reach that age or something happens and they don't breed. But so far the ocean has us by a long shot.

To many people are starting to change the subject, its getting into, fishing, eating, destroying the ocean and being eaten by sharks as well as corals which has absolutely nothing to do with the subject of fish, captive vs wild. That's not what the subject is about.

My apologies if I came off as cocky or a jerk that wasn't my intention.

Maybe they can't be compared due to the vast difference of expectancy's between the two lives, captive vs. wild. I just know there are things that take place in the ocean in a fishes life expectancy between fish they we can't and probably won't ever be able to replicate in our tanks (like breeding).

So respectfully I will agree to disagree with some of you. This is a hobby that we all hold close to us.

It maybe the goal of a fish to live long enough to breed but it is the expectancy for fish not to ever reach sexual maturity nor be able to actually breed. It is the way nature works and has ever since species started reproducing sexually instead of asexually.

Why?

Number of eggs produced. They are cheap to make and as with many species once they are released for external fertilization that is the end as far as parenting. Some fish die such as salmon while others will spawn until they are eaten by another.

Why else would an animal that is often small have such a large number of tiny simple eggs? Kind of like powerball huh?

Many of these eggs are consumed and the larval stage is never reached.

If the fish has survived, you have larval transport and dispersal, and settlement. Perhaps during transport the larvae never found suitable habitat and died. Eventually the fish becomes an adult and grows yet it can be eaten.

If you factor that fish have to find food, use energy just to swim and maintain position in a 3D environment, plus have enough energy available for growth, disease is present and changes to the physical environment occur, it is pretty amazing any fish can breed.

As far as the original subject if you don't think you should take fish from the ocean for the hobby don't. If you believe that no fish, captive bred or wild caught should be in a glass box then quit the hobby.

 

[Fin Mike]

I don't know. It kind of made me feel bad today. I received a box of fish in the mail today for my tank and it had a 90% dead sideways-swimming bicolor angel in it. My first thought was that I would never mail order delicate fish again and that they are just not meant to be shipped. Instead I'd just buy them from the fish store. Then I immediately realized that my LFS probably receives dozens of dead pigmy angels a month. Then multiply that buy the large number of LFS's in my area and by the number or large cities in this country. And then consider other countries. Must just be millions of these reef fishes dumped into the trash dead from shipping everyday.

1. Do not buy from that mail order source again. It seems like their shipping procedures aren't quite right. LA is a great source for fish that need to be shipped. I have a fireball angel and a CBB I bought from the "Divers Den" and they are doing great. You pay a premium for these fish, but they have been through the quarantine process, and they have a two week guarantee. Not bad!

2. Don't feel bad buddy. You want to talk about waste, just watch the back of a shrimping trawler after is has pulled its nets. The "by catch" is astounding. However, what is certain death for many fish is a feast for the dolphins, sharks, and other scavengers that eat the by catch. We eat shrimp and never think about the consequences of the fishing tactics used to bring in the shrimp.

My advice is this: eat the shrimp blackened or broiled in a nice garlic sauce. UMMMMMM

 

[Fishbulb2]

1. Do not buy from that mail order source again. It seems like their shipping procedures aren't quite right. LA is a great source for fish that need to be shipped. I have a fireball angel and a CBB I bought from the "Divers Den" and they are doing great. You pay a premium for these fish, but they have been through the quarantine process, and they have a two week guarantee. Not bad!

2. Don't feel bad buddy. You want to talk about waste, just watch the back of a shrimping trawler after is has pulled its nets. The "by catch" is astounding. However, what is certain death for many fish is a feast for the dolphins, sharks, and other scavengers that eat the by catch. We eat shrimp and never think about the consequences of the fishing tactics used to bring in the shrimp.

My advice is this: eat the shrimp blackened or broiled in a nice garlic sauce. UMMMMMM

Thanks for tips Fin Mike. I didn't want to name the vendor because I 'm sure this happens with a lot of them so I didn't want to pick on anyone. I have used LA before and had great luck with them. I'll likely try them again in the future. Unfortunately, the bicolor angel passed away yesterday. It was sad, bummed me out, and made me think of this post again. It was really weird because during the acclimation, it went from barely moving only one fin while on it's side, to completely swimming upright. Then the next day it was eating, then the next it was dead. Kind of sad.

I'm really not trying to judge others and I don't think the original poster was either. But I do think it's something to think about. We are definitely pulling a lot of these fish out of the ocean at a fast rate. When I think of a species like the Banggai cardinalfish, even as a hobbyist I want it's wild collection banned if we are leading to it's extinction (like we did with dodo's, atlas bears, tasmanian tigers, and passenger pigeons to name a few). With no regulations whatsoever, I have no doubt we could strip an entire reef in weeks just to support our hobby insatiable appetite for fish. I think Hawaii is trying to fight some of this. Depending on which way the facts fall out is how I would vote, regardless of my hobbyist status. I love this hobby, but NEVER enough to destroy a reef. I think there's no reason why we couldn't have sustainable reefing. It would take minimal effort.

Any tips on the hardiest pigmy angels to try? Even if from LA? Again, I just don't see any option but to go wild caught for my "main fish", but at least I'd like to see it prosper and not perish within a week.

FB

Oh and I stopped eating shrimp after I saw how they were mass produced in shrimp farms in Asia. Ugh, gross. No fresh caught ocean shrimp, man that sounds good.

 

[Paul B]

Oh and I stopped eating shrimp after I saw how they were mass produced in shrimp farms in Asia.

I would never eat anything that was farmed in Asia, I eat seafood almost every day, it is almost all I eat but all of it is fresh caught.
If I can't find wild caught seafood, I eat chicken.

 

[Gandolfe]

I'm weary someitme of fish even from my LFS..I was there on delivery day one day and talked to their supplier..he came directly from the keys to a Tampa store and they were putting the fish directly into there tanks after floating them for a little while..no quarentine, no acclimation...made me wonder how many other stores have this practice and how many suppliers do any quarentine at all before supplying the LFS. I am also afraid to order online because of the fact that I've had bad experiences with both fed-ex and UPS... I saw the same thing at petsmart yesterday...just floating new fish with no quarentine...The kid(clerk) said "oh we look at them in the bag, to make sure they are healthy before adding them".... This coming from an 18 year old kid who probably only had a goldfish or betta for experience

 

[Paul B]

no quarentine, no acclimation

I have been at this a long time and have gone to wholesalers many times to pick out fish for an LFS. I even helped start 3 stores here in New York and I have never seen a store quarantine anything. They acclimate with the drip method but none of them that I ever dealt with, and it has been many, ever quarantined anything. They don't have the room or time.
If you want to quarantine than you should do that but I would not trust a store to do it. They get new shipments in every few days from all over the world and are lucky to have enough room for the stuff they are trying to sell much less to set up many quarantine tanks. Even if they say they do, I would not trust them.
Most stores just run copper in their tanks and if they say they don't, I also would not believe that. If it were not for copper, there would not be a salt water fish hobby. Virtually all fish are exposed to ich in transport, you can't get around it. They are all in the same shipping container after having spent time in holding tanks at the collector and shipper. They are extreamly stressed and many of them die well before the LFS even sees them. Ich would kill the remainder if it were not for copper.
That is also the reason many fish do not exhibit ich until you buy it. The copper in the dealer's tank keeps the paracites from showing up on fish, but they are usually there. When you put it in your copper free reef, it blossoms.
You don't have to believe me, but it is what it is.