Taking the ESV Salt plunge...

[scolley]

As I approach the end of my 1st year of actually having water in a reef tank, I'm re-evaluating all those things I consider to be a newbie mistake. One of them is my decision to use Reef Crystals salt. Or to be more accurate... I don't think that was a mistake per se - that salt worked well enough. But having a little experience now allows me to improve on that initial salt decision. There MUST be better salts. 'Nuff said.

I'll not waste time here debating on "why ESV vs. XYZ brand". Bottom line I saw reason to believe that it might be as good as the best. Problem is - of course - that it also might NOT be that good. So it's a risk.

I dose 2-part. And I do it incrementally throughout the day using a controller. So changing a salt mix is actually not a trivial decision. Because it will require finding an ENTIRELY different frequency and dosage level for my automated 2-part dosing. And that takes time. But it gets worse...

I also do not do large water changes. I do little, incremental ones. Automatically my tank changes a little bit of its water every day. So that means that when I change the salt in the reservoir the new water comes from each day... all my numbers are going to start drifting. Now add to that the fact that my automated 2-part dosing is going to be ALL wrong for a while...

All this adds up to the fact that switching salt on a 2-part automated, daily w/c automated, tank is going to destabilize things for a few months. Bummer. It's why I waited so long to do this.

I mixed up my first batch of ESV today. But it's getting late now. Will report my findings on that tomorrow.

 

[scolley]

What's in the box?

What's in the box?

I bought the 200g mix set, which came in two boxes. This is a pic AFTER I used it once, so one box is unpacked.

One box - the one shown, has nothing in it but a big bag of Sodium Chloride. It's bagged in a single thick plastic bag closed with a sturdy reusable plastic strap. Just as I was about to cut the strap with some scissors, I noticed a label on the bag which reads

"Components and instructions found in box 2 of 2 required before use.

Do not remove bag from box.

Cable tie is reclosable - Do not cut.

Close tightly after use and store in a cold dry place."
​

Hmmm... good thing I saw that before cutting the tie. Which - BTW - does reclose very well. But I think I'm going to empty an old salt bucket and put this bag in that. A bit more sturdy than the box, and easier to carry.

The other box had all the other stuff you see on the table, plus the instructions. The 2nd boxes contents were:

1. Bag of Magnesium Sulfate Heptahydrate, 11 lbs., double bagged with baggie-type zip lock closure
2. 2 jugs of Component A, 128 fl. oz. each
3. 1 jug of Component B, 128 fl. oz.
4. 1 measuring cup, 250ml or 8 oz capacity
5. 1 set of 4 measuring scoop/spoon combos. Sizes ranging from 1 to 1/4 cup for the scoops, and 1 tablespoon to 1/4 teaspoon. All units on scoop/spoons also shown in milliliters.

In use I found the scoops really nice for measurement. Scooping up a measure of dry chemical with one, and using the edge of another to scrape across the top to level the measured amount yielded what I'll wager is a pretty accurate measure. My wife has already laid claim to the next set that comes in the house. Really.

And the little measuring cup just appears both sturdy and accurate. I did not check it against a reference for accuracy, but looks like close to lab grade stuff, if plastic. It's easy to pour into, easy to pour from without dripping.

 

[scolley]

The instructions

The instructions

Here's a pic of the instructions. Good - IMO - but not perfect.

For starters I was a little concerned about instruction #7. While I know testing your salt mix before use is just good practice. But there should be two possible reasons why you should need to test this after mixing.

1. To make sure you didn't make a mistake in the mixing.
2. Because the product is inconsistent enough that adjustments could be needed.

If that instruction is there for the 1st reason, I'm all for it. But if it's the 2nd reason, I won't be using this salt long.

If you look for other people using this salt, you'll find a number of them had trouble with their measured levels after mixing. It's possible that the root of that could be in the instructions. Here's why...

Let's say I'm mixing 25 gallons. IMO the natural tendency is to look at that chart, find the 20 gallon line and the 5 gallon line, and add all the components up. Then go back to the top for the step-by-step instructions. Sounds ok, right? Problem is... what do you mean by 25 gallons?

Is that 25 gallons of RO/DI that you're about to start dumping the mix into? Or is it that after you've dumped everything into the water that the NEW total volume will be 25 gallons? With your original volume being something less than 25g - in this case 24.5 gallons. It's a subtle - but pretty important - difference.

Now to ESV's credit, they very clearly list RO/DI volume as one of the components in every "Final Batch Size". Look in the column header. Even still, I'll wager dollars to doughnuts that this distinction is throwing some people off. If I'd been in just a bit more of a hurry, I'd have fallen for that problem for sure.

 

[tank o tang]

Seems alot more work than I want to do. Let us know how the tank responds.

 

[scolley]

Following the instructions - practical application

Following the instructions - practical application

The instant I sat down to figure out how much of each of the components I needed, I realized that I had a problem. I did not know exactly how much RO/DI I was starting with. Bummer.

Like many people, I use a Rubbermaid trash can - 17g specifically. I've got a float switch that fills it to near the top with RO/DI. But how much is that? 17g? 16.5? Something else? Who knows. Not me.

Previously I'd mix in a measured amount of salt that previous testing taught me would get me close to my target salinity. And then add small amounts of salt until it was just right. But none of that required that I knew exactly how much water I was starting with. With ESV salt, if you want to mix as per instructions, that knowledge is essential.

The only way I could figure out how to determine exactly how much RO/DI I started with was to fill the trash can as normal, and then take out water, measuring it as I go. Problem is... where's my "reference gallon"? How do I know with a reasonable degree of certainty, how much I'm taking out?

After a LOT a measuring and some simple calculations, I was able to determine that one of my Home Depot orange buckets held 5.62 gallons, when filled to the very top. A few bucket fulls of that took care of the majority of the measurement, with the remainder handled by some fairly accurate measuring cups of various sizes.

The conclusion? When filled with RO/DI, my Rubbermaid starts with 16.79 gallons. Now to find a final amount of 16.79 gallons on the ESV instructions...

Naturally, it was not there. But adding up values in the RO/DI column got me close. If I added 9.8g (for 10g final) with 4.9g (for 5g final) and 2 times .98g (for 2 x 1g final) gave me a total starting RO/DI volume of 16.66. And since I knew my total volume of RO/DI now, it just meant grabbing those accurate measurement cups to remove 0.13 gallons from my RO/DI (approx. 2 cups, 1 tbsp, 1 tsp).

Now I finally had the right STARTING amount of water to make 17g of salt mix from ESV's chart. Knowing how much of each mix component I needed meant just a little math, as shown in the chart below.

So what have I learned? I can's start mixing with my Rubbermaid full of RO/DI anymore. I have to remove a small - understood - quantity or water first.

 

[scolley]

Seems alot more work than I want to do.

I does, doesn't it? That's why I wanted to document it fully here for people. It's not as simple as one might assume.

But I suspect the hard part is past me.

1. I know how much RO/DI my mix container holds.
2. I know how much RO/DI I have to remove to make it an even increment of what can be found in the ESV instructions.
3. I know how much of each component to use every time - in principle.

Since my old habit required multiple days of mixing and tweaking to get the water just right, I'm hoping ESV will change that. The trade-off will be measuring and adding multiple components. But I should only have to do it once, and the entire mix process should be WAY less than 30 minutes, one time per batch.

Time will tell.

 

[terahz]

Wow, that's a lot of work to get salt water.

I personally hate measuring by volume because a lot of dry "ingredients" can be compacted which can make a big difference.

Here is how I would do it. Measure the weight of the rubbermaid empty, turn the RO/DI on, and when the container is full (as measured by the float switch), measure the weight again. From the chart, use the 100G row to calculate the 1 unit of weight (whatever you use to calculate the RO/DI weight) steps with highest precision possible, multiply that by the weight of water you have and you're all set.

Once you have the proper measurements, take the food scale out, put a big enough bowl to hold all "ingredients", zero out the scale and start adding the spices Dump all in the RO/DI container and you're all set.

Then again, I don't think I'll ever do any of that just for my salt water

 

[scolley]

First Mix

First Mix

Using measures as shown on the table a couple of posts ago, I mixed my first batch yesterday, as per above instructions. ESV states loosely that if following instructions your mix (at 77 degrees F) should be:<o></o>

• SG 1.0256 (salinity 34 ppt)<o></o>
• Ca 450 ppm<o></o>
• Alk 3.25 meq/L (9.1 dKH)<o></o>
• Mg 1400 ppm<o></o>

<o></o> After mixing mine I tested specific gravity first and got a reading of around 1.0215. I was floored. That's WAY off! So far off in fact, that I had to assume that I messed up. In the above table the quantity of salt I was supposed to add included 5 level cups. And I remembered getting frustrated with the hard hunks of salt making it harder than I wanted to get a good, perfectly level measure. So I wonder if I got distracted, and miscounted the cups?<o>

</o><o></o><o></o>On that assumption, I added exactly 1 more cup and waited overnight.<o>

</o><o></o><o></o>Today I calibrated my refractometer, and it reads the mix a little north of 1.025, but not quite 1.0255. That's close enough for me to be pretty sure I left out a cup. Coming that close - after being that far off - can't be a coincidence. But naturally it calls all my other measurements into question too.<o></o><o></o>

So, now I measure my first batch at:<o></o>

• SG 1.025+<o></o>
• Ca 465 ppm<o></o>
• Alk 3.43 meq/L (9.6 dKH)<o></o>
• Mg 1365 ppm<o></o>

That's a little off from ESVs target. But the difference could easily be my test kits, mixing/measuring errors, error in determining my initial RO/DI volume, or a combination thereof. Either way, it looks close enough to use the batch. <o>
</o><o></o>
I'll fill my salt mix reservoir up with this stuff, and my controller will start mixing this stuff in tonight. It changes small batches every day, for a total of about 30% each month. So it will be awhile (months) before I'll be able to postulate about this salt making a difference. And without a good before/after transition my observations will be uber-subjective.
<o></o><o></o>
But... it's at least one more data point for people considering the same change to consider. Hope this helps. :thumbsup:

 

[scolley]

I personally hate measuring by volume because a lot of dry "ingredients" can be compacted which can make a big difference.

You're definitely right about that. And you'll note that in my chart above I only included ingredient volumes, not weights.

I've got a NICE gram scale that I use for precise fert measures for my planted tanks. It would work great for this. But that experience has also taught me that messing with gram measurements is a PITA. At least to me. If I can get away with measuring volumes instead, I'm gonna do it.

What I'll have to use as a metric is the variance I get on my measurements across separate batches. And that will take time. And if the swings are too much, I may well have to pull out that gram scale.

Here is how I would do it. Measure the weight of the rubbermaid empty, turn the RO/DI on, and when the container is full (as measured by the float switch), measure the weight again...

I stopped reading after that. 17 gallons of water weight a LOT. Even breaking it down to 10 increments still weights too much to find a scale that can weigh that kind of weight with any real accuracy. Not without dropping a lot of change. (For the naysayers, please not that I said accuracy, not precision.)

Besides, with all the work I went though, I'm pretty sure I'm REAL close to that container's volume. IMO there's no way I can be off more than a liquid ounce or two. It's close.

Once you have the proper measurements, take the food scale out, put a big enough bowl to hold all "ingredients", zero out the scale and start adding the spices Dump all in the RO/DI container and you're all set.

You can't do that. You gotta mix it all separately. Apparently in the proper order.

Then again, I don't think I'll ever do any of that just for my salt water

I'm sure I'll hear a lot of that.

But one of my newbie observation is that salt may matter a lot more than many people think. I suspect that a lot of trouble people have with mature tanks starting to fail is not often simply the cumulative effect of years using a crappy salt, with subsequent heavy metal sequestration in the tank's environment.

ESV's reputation is for impeccable ingredients in their chems. I'm gonna give it a shot and see if I can see the diff. Will be fun!

 

[terahz]

You're definitely right about that. And you'll note that in my chart above I only included ingredient volumes, not weights.

I'm confused If I'm right why didn't you use mass instead of volume?

But that experience has also taught me that messing with gram measurements is a PITA. At least to me. If I can get away with measuring volumes instead, I'm gonna do it.

Exactly the opposite from me Every time I can I measure weight (in metric). I guess that's because I'm native to the metric system.

I stopped reading after that. 17 gallons of water weight a LOT. Even breaking it down to 10 increments still weights too much to find a scale that can weigh that kind of weight with any real accuracy. Not without dropping a lot of change. (For the naysayers, please not that I said accuracy, not precision.)

Yeah, 17G of water mass is a little bit under my mass . If you have a digital human scale that should give you pretty good weight. That being said, water is probably the only thing I'm comfortable measuring by volume, so I'm sure your method is as accurate.

You can't do that. You gotta mix it all separately. Apparently in the proper order.

Ah, I didn't know that. Even fancier than I thought .

But one of my newbie observation is that salt may matter a lot more than many people think. I suspect that a lot of trouble people have with mature tanks starting to fail is not often simply the cumulative effect of years using a crappy salt, with subsequent heavy metal sequestration in the tank's environment.

You're probably right. I can see how various impurities can accumulate in a mature system if the salt mix is not as clean as possible.

I'll be watching carefully too. It would be interesting to see what effects on your tank it will have.

 

[Wheel of Time]

Steve,

wow, that is a much more involved process with esv than I had imagined. Thanks a lot for documenting the steps / instructions etc. You are certainly giving your tank all the attention to details and making the extra efforts to ensure quality in every step of setting your reef up. Well done. I dont have the patience to ensure all the proper measuremnets. I can see myself afer the third batch rushing a scoop then having too much of one in etc... I think Ill stick with the oceanic I use.

But I am very very curious to see/hear if there are any noticable difference in your reef inhabitants after using the new mix for a while. That may convince me otherwise to adapt. Thanks again your updating us.

Its threads like this / reef cnetral in general that is so darn cool. see so many new things, ideas, etc. Wish I had joined a forum like this when I first started in the hobby.

 

[RTMA]

wow, that is a much more involved process with esv than I had imagined.

A big +1 on that. That chart made my head hurt. I know I would screw that up. no doubt.

Good luck with the salt Steve, hope it works out for you. Thank you for documenting all of this. I am sure someone will really find this useful.

I myself, like Seth, will stick with the Oceanic. I am certainly not saying it is better, it is just easier for me. The high Calcium and Magnesium save me some $ with less dosing.

 

[Obi-dad]

How long was your tank in operation until you made the decision to try another salt?

The reason I ask is that it is common for tank chemistry and ecosystem (algae/cyano/bacteria, etc) to change during the first year (or even longer if tank equipment has changed). I think basing an opinion on salt should be made after a tank has matured for a year, otherwise you may be basing it on factors that don't really have anything to do with a specific salt mix. (this is not just based on reading here on RC, I have had different tanks over the years and my current tank is over 6 years old)

Also, I have made errors in mixing salt (both in measuring and because of cheapo swing-arm hydrometers), and in varying salinity accidentally by problems in equipment or laziness. I have noticed much less problems (like algae/cyano) from this than in husbandry or lack thereof on my part. I think a lot of people ascribe more variations in their reef due to salt that is really due to other factors like non-mature tanks, over feeding, etc.

Another issue when I have changed salts is that I haven't truly kept the experiment only about salt, I have changed other factors also - hard to keep a 'control' when you don't keep all other factors the same.

But I am interested in how this salt works for you, please keep us informed.

 

[scolley]

How long was your tank in operation until you made the decision to try another salt?

So as not to avoid a direct question... My tanks has has water in it for 11.5 months. But I gather from the inquery that you presume I'm changing salts to fix a problem. FAR from it. While I'm sure there many better 1 year old tanks out there... Relatively speaking mine is a paragon of both health and stability. Granted, it's questionable to call anything stable after so little time, in a hobby where years matter. But the simple fact is I have no coral health issues that are not easily explained (didn't feed that sun coral enough... Put that sps way too far from the light, shoulda never let that acan touch the fungia... ) These are all newbie mistakes, and some are even deliberate risks I've taken in the interest of teaching myself this hobby. But the bottom line is that any problems with my corals are from my placement and/or feeding. The tank itself is one damn healthy tank, and would be quite pleased to show you personally.

Nope, my decision to change salt is entirely based on personal suspicion that long term use of salt may be at the root of long term problems. Many of those being problems that will never set in until a poor salt has been used for years.

But clearly, I'll not be able to prove that here - just as I'm not trying to fix any problem with my tank.

However, I may be improving the chances of the long term stability of my tank. And I might - just maybe - be able to report what appears to be improved health in a tank of - what appears to be - already healthy corals.

Oh yea... No algae to speak of either. Not none... But it'd take a trained eye, and a real, real close inspection to find it.

 

[clittrell]

Great thread. Thanks for the info. Look forwardcto seeing how the second batch comes out. I hope you are able to get the consistency you are looking for!

 

[scolley]

Let us know how the tank responds.

I'll be watching carefully too. It would be interesting to see what effects on your tank it will have.

Good luck with the salt Steve, hope it works out for you. Thank you for documenting all of this. I am sure someone will really find this useful.

wow, that is a much more involved process with esv than I had imagined. Thanks a lot for documenting the steps / instructions etc.

But I am interested in how this salt works for you, please keep us informed.

Great thread. Thanks for the info.

Thank All for the kind words an support. Just trying to document the process to help the community. That first batch WAS MUCH more complex to get done than I had anticipated.

Another issue when I have changed salts is that I haven't truly kept the experiment only about salt, I have changed other factors also - hard to keep a 'control' when you don't keep all other factors the same.

Agreed. I'm an old hand with planted tanks, and this same issue is a factor when trying to understand cause-effect relationships in a tank. No different for reefs.

The only thing that should be changing in my tank over the next few months should be this salt. I MAY accelerate my rate of water changes (60% per month vs. 30%), just to get the change over out of the way faster. And the big temptation will be that I've got a new light coming in. And if I decide to use it, I can't without giving up any observations on the effects of this salt. So the light's gonna have to wait. All the more reason to double up on those daily w/c's.


CLARIFYING INTENT
Maybe I should have been more clear at the beginning of this thread. The only reason I'm posting this is to document the ESV B-Ionic Seawater System, the product and its use. And to report on any apparent changes in my tank from it's short-term use.

For the record I'm switching from Reef Crystals, which I've had no real issues with. Yes, I've had the legendary brown scum and deposits in my mixing trash can. For me that goes away with just taking more time (LOTS more time) in the mixing. And I had a bit of that maroon/reddish algae that some report from using it. In my case it was very early in the life of my tank, it's been gone many months - for the most part. This is the one case where I DO have some algae, and it persists on the tubes of one paly, but nowhere else. I can remove it, but it comes back. This will be a good thing to watch.

The things I'm not particularly interested in discussing - though others should feel free:

1. Reef Crystals, their merit or lack thereof
2. My decision to switch
3. The merits of ESV, or lack thereof

Bottom line... I'm not really looking to debate. Just looking to document my findings for other people's use.

 

[Obi-dad]

So as not to avoid a direct question... My tanks has has water in it for 11.5 months. But I gather from the inquery that you presume I'm changing salts to fix a problem. FAR from it. While I'm sure there many better 1 year old tanks out there... Relatively speaking mine is a paragon of both health and stability. Granted, it's questionable to call anything stable after so little time, in a hobby where years matter. But the simple fact is I have no coral health issues that are not easily explained (didn't feed that sun coral enough... Put that sps way too far from the light, shoulda never let that acan touch the fungia... ) These are all newbie mistakes, and some are even deliberate risks I've taken in the interest of teaching myself this hobby. But the bottom line is that any problems with my corals are from my placement and/or feeding. The tank itself is one damn healthy tank, and would be quite pleased to show you personally.

Nope, my decision to change salt is entirely based on personal suspicion that long term use of salt may be at the root of long term problems. Many of those being problems that will never set in until a poor salt has been used for years.

But clearly, I'll not be able to prove that here - just as I'm not trying to fix any problem with my tank.

However, I may be improving the chances of the long term stability of my tank. And I might - just maybe - be able to report what appears to be improved health in a tank of - what appears to be - already healthy corals.

Oh yea... No algae to speak of either. Not none... But it'd take a trained eye, and a real, real close inspection to find it.

Ah - when I read your original post with 'there MUST be better salts, 'Nuff said', I though that implied you were dissatisfied somehow. I guess you are referring to the 'old tank syndrome' that some people get. There was a reef 'expert' who said he thinks this is due to heavy metal accumulation (Ron Shimek I think?). But other 'experts' have said they do not think what people attribute to old tank syndrome is an actual single cause. If you think about it, there are far fewer old tanks than newbie tanks, and the newbie rate of disaster is high. So without actual rates of problems on old tanks versus new tanks, I am not sure there really is a huge problem of old tank syndrome - there may be, but I haven't seen it yet and I know there are reef tanks that are decades old.

I also think it may be somewhat different for planted freshwater tanks than for saltwater. I think the ecosystem for saltwater involves many more different types of organisms than freshwater, and coupled with the large differences in reef chemistry in salt vs fresh water, there may not be the same end-point in mature tanks in salt vs fresh water.

(all this is speculation, I am not an expert, just an interested hobbyist - and I'm not debating your decision to try another salt, just commenting)

 

[Obi-dad]

Ooops - Steve, I was typing my post discussing old tank syndrome while you were posting about not wanting debate. I hope you didn't take my post wrong, I was not trying to debate you, just discussing old tank syndrome - I wouldn't want newbies to read this thread and think they need to use this brand of salt in order to avoid a syndrome that may not even exist. I will be following your experiment and think it is worthwhile for someone to try it (at the moment I barely take enough time to keep up on water changes let alone spending time on salt mixing).

 

[scolley]

Ooops - Steve, I was typing my post discussing old tank syndrome while you were posting about not wanting debate. I hope you didn't take my post wrong, I was not trying to debate you, just discussing old tank syndrome - I wouldn't want newbies to read this thread and think they need to use this brand of salt in order to avoid a syndrome that may not even exist.

I'm sure there was a ninja post going on then. No harm no foul Gregg. Thanks.

But on the point of what newbies might think... if a newbie, or anyone, makes a habit of drawing conclusions and taking action based on an instance of someone making a statement, using qualifying phrases like "I suspect" or "I think", with no proof or authoritative position, then they are destined for a heap of trouble in this hobby. I'm not going to modify posting my suspicions based on the possibility that the stupid will in fact, do something stupid. Unfortunately they, like the rest of us, when consuming community information, have the burden of teasing fact from fiction, principle from myth, conclusion from hypothesis. It's the nature of the beast for this and all forum's. That said, my previous statements stand.

 

[Obi-dad]

Wasn't trying to get you to modify your statements, just discussing