tang police in here please

[ReefKeeper2009]

I see what you mean Toddrtrex and I agree sometimes life gets in the way. My purple isn't a terror yet he is in there with three potters. Anyways sorry to hijack this thread.I think that footballdude2k3 is fine just so long as he is prepared for when the fish gets bigger down the line. Tony

 

[Patroklos]

Due to my job my tank is disestablished every three years max, so I never really worry about what things will look like longer term that that. However, if a fish is healthy then it is healthy, there is no logic whatsoever in applying theoretical rules when the conflict with observed reality. That hippo will not even approach its full size for years, there is no harm at all in giving it a happy home that will be fine for that period of time.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

Due to my job my tank is disestablished every three years max, so I never really worry about what things will look like longer term that that. However, if a fish is healthy then it is healthy, there is no logic whatsoever in applying theoretical rules when the conflict with observed reality. That hippo will not even approach its full size for years, there is no harm at all in giving it a happy home that will be fine for that period of time.

How do you determine it to be absolutely "healthy"? Does a fish that paces constantly desreve a tag of "healthy" if it doesnt show infection or parasite? Does a fish that hides from lager aggressive fish get the term "healthy"?

I am not attacking you, but merely showing the extreme vagueness to your claims of polar black and white.

Furthermore, if you completely redo after maximum 3 years, you are the exception, not the rule. So, offering advice of your decision making parameters is rather inapplicable. People in Ecuador can wear shorts and tshirts every day, but they cant suggest that people in Alaska do so, applicably.

 

[jmaneyapanda]

I see what you mean Toddrtrex and I agree sometimes life gets in the way. My purple isn't a terror yet he is in there with three potters. Anyways sorry to hijack this thread.I think that footballdude2k3 is fine just so long as he is prepared for when the fish gets bigger down the line. Tony

I would disagree. Why buy a common fish now, when you "plan to go bigger down the line"? Wait until youve gone bigger, and then buy the fish. Theyll still be available.

 

[Toddrtrex]

Due to my job my tank is disestablished every three years max, so I never really worry about what things will look like longer term that that. However, if a fish is healthy then it is healthy, there is no logic whatsoever in applying theoretical rules when the conflict with observed reality. That hippo will not even approach its full size for years, there is no harm at all in giving it a happy home that will be fine for that period of time.

No, it won't reach its full size in 3 years, but it will for sure outgrow a 4' tank in 3 years. And if it doesn't, then something is surely wrong.

 

[TampaReefer79]

I don't care how long it would be in the tank, a 4' tank isn't a good idea for a hippo tang. Nor is a 65 gallon tank a good idea for a PBT...at ALL. I don't care how small the fish is or how long it will be there. Very bad fish keeping practices and even worse to advertise it here...you're just letting all the newcomers think that it's ok to do something like that. Which it isn't. Unfortunately that PBT doesn't stand a chance. It was doomed the day you brought it home. Unless you plan on putting it in a bigger tank like the day after you brought it home.

 

[DarthSimon]

Kole Tang... If that....

 

[Patroklos]

I don't care how long it would be in the tank, a 4' tank isn't a good idea for a hippo tang. Nor is a 65 gallon tank a good idea for a PBT...at ALL. I don't care how small the fish is or how long it will be there. Very bad fish keeping practices and even worse to advertise it here...you're just letting all the newcomers think that it's ok to do something like that. Which it isn't. Unfortunately that PBT doesn't stand a chance. It was doomed the day you brought it home. Unless you plan on putting it in a bigger tank like the day after you brought it home.

You do understand that "tang police" is a perjorative, right?

I understand that you are dogmatic in your adherence to theory, however at some point you are going to have to reconcile what you think SHOULD be with what actually IS. I gave you an example of observed reality, and your counter was to quote at me from some imagined fish bible. Unless you are now going to add accusing me of being a liar to your list of self righteous characteristics displayed above, accept that my fish are perfectly healthy and perhaps use that knowledge to tackle your arrogance. It will certainly improve the tone of your posting at least.

And BTW, this is a forum for advice. I provided it based on my years of experiance and accumulated knowledge. I realize, given your avatar, that you fashion yourself as some omicient god of fish lore but your advice is no better or worse than mine so refrain from pretending you have any authority to tell me to not give my own advice.

Objectively, assuming you can look at things that way, nothing I have said is even at odds with your advice. You simply have no faith in him upgrading/disestablishing his tank.

 

[TampaReefer79]

Your advice is horrible and should not be followed.

Try to speak english next time. Trying to SOUND smarter than you are actually makes you sound less so.

My avatar is a personal joke - you wouldn't get it. (had to be there type of thing)

 

[tcmfish]

I have to disagree on this whole idea that tangs won't reach their full size in a year or two. Even in your case of 3 years. Also you even said 5+ years.

For example, at the LFS I used to work at we had a 1500 gallon display tank. I put a smaller than 2" orange shoulder tang in the tank just before I was leaving to go back to school in December when I came back to work that summer (May) the fish was already it was 5"+ and then by the end of the summer growth had slowed a little but it was still larger than my hand by then.

When given the space and IMO lots of water changes, fish can grow at alarming rates.

Now as far as tang police, I don't really like that idea or the fact that someone has an avatar with it JMO though. Also, realistically we can't all have 1500 gallon display tanks, but IMO you should try and provide a tank where the fish will be comfortable as a large adult. Chances are if the fish looks to big in the tank (which this is obvious) then it probably is too small of a tank, even if the fish seems healthy.

 

[TampaReefer79]

I have to disagree on this whole idea that tangs won't reach their full size in a year or two. Even in your case of 3 years. Also you even said 5+ years.

For example, at the LFS I used to work at we had a 1500 gallon display tank. I put a smaller than 2" orange shoulder tang in the tank just before I was leaving to go back to school in December when I came back to work that summer (May) the fish was already it was 5"+ and then by the end of the summer growth had slowed a little but it was still larger than my hand by then.

When given the space and IMO lots of water changes, fish can grow at alarming rates.

Now as far as tang police, I don't really like that idea or the fact that someone has an avatar with it JMO though. Also, realistically we can't all have 1500 gallon display tanks, but IMO you should try and provide a tank where the fish will be comfortable as a large adult. Chances are if the fish looks to big in the tank (which this is obvious) then it probably is too small of a tank, even if the fish seems healthy.

I put the key to your whole post in bold... all of these people with tangs in tiny tanks use the excuse that they 'look healthy' or 'are fat and happy'.

Show me the scientific proof that your huge tang stuffed in a tiny aquarium is 'happy' or 'healthy'. Feeding a tang 12 times a day in a 50 gallon tank will make him fat yes, but his growth will also be stunted. And please post a pic with your tang up at the glass smiling at you...or giving a thumbs up. Or just SOME indication that you know he's happy. You think a PBT is 'happy' just because he paces back and forth non stop in your 3 foot tank???

 

[Patroklos]

:lol:

Wow, so having your face rubbed in your own arrogance prompts you to be more so? Well, I guess you have proved my point as best as one could ask. Congrats.

So, what we sould take away from this thread concerning TampaReefer is

1.) He cares not about others experiances and observations, he simply KNOWS the health of others tanks and fish becaus thats how it HAS to be.

2.) If you dare describe experiances contrary to his dogma then you must be a liar.

I guess we can just close all the threads in this forum now, obviously nobody here has anything to contribute besides you, we can all just hang on your every word.

So, please explain why my fish, in the tank for two years now, is healthy and happy despite your rules of the road? Then explain why, when there is a hard limit to the existance of my system (3 months from now) it is not advisable to keep a small tang in only a temporarily suitable tank when transfer is gaurunteed? Observed reality contradicts your assumptions, reconcile.

 

[Patroklos]

I put the key to your whole post in bold... all of these people with tangs in tiny tanks use the excuse that they 'look healthy' or 'are fat and happy'.

Show me the scientific proof that your huge tang stuffed in a tiny aquarium is 'happy' or 'healthy'. Feeding a tang 12 times a day in a 50 gallon tank will make him fat yes, but his growth will also be stunted. And please post a pic with your tang up at the glass smiling at you...or giving a thumbs up. Or just SOME indication that you know he's happy. You think a PBT is 'happy' just because he paces back and forth non stop in your 3 foot tank???

Take everything you just said, and apply it to your position that he is unhappy.

We all know the metrics used to determine happy and health fish. Abnormal aggressivness or shyness, acceptance of food, coloration, signs or injury/disease/infaction, and many others. If its impossible to determine a happy and heathy fish then it is impossibe to determine an unhappy and unhealthy fish.

Congratulations on your circular arguement.

There is a simple fact you will have to deal with, and hiding it from newcomers because you don't trust them does not change it. Tangs have long lives, and are going to spend much of it smaller than their full size. A tang in its early life can be perfectly healthy and happy in smaller tanks, and there is nothing wrong with letting them be happy and healthy in smaller tanks as long as you recognize that at some point you are probably going to have to find it a new home or if you know you won't have the fish at that point anyway. Or in other words, your cookie cutter concept of tang care is for the lowest common denominator, which generally don't apply to people who take the time to participate on these boards.

 

[TampaReefer79]

P.S. tcmfish - I completely agree about the growth rate you posted about. Some don't understand this here for some reason. If you take the same exact fish at the same exact size, and put them in different tanks (say a 500 gallon and a 50 gallon) the tang in the 500 gallon will grow so much faster than the one in the 50 gallon tank. It's just a fact. I've seen it happen personally. I put a vlamingii in my 180 years ago at the same time a buddy put one in his 92 bowfront. A few months later he came over and asked me where my little vlamingii went. LOL He didn't recognize it because it was so huge compared to his.

So again, calling a fish housed in a tiny tank happy and healthy is just a bunch of crap if you ask me. It's unproveable.

And the avatar comes from a dispute I had with an idividual that had 25 fish, 12 of them being 6"+ tangs, in a 120 gallon tank. Then he went out and bought 250 clownfish. I told him he was irresponsible, overstocked etc. People that know me started saying, uh oh here comes the tang police and it just stuck. Instead of fighting it, I roll with it. It's kind of funny...but at the same time serious. The ONE thing in this hobby that I'm most passionate about is tangs. They are what got me into the hobby in the first place. Everyone has their 'thing' that they love about reefing. Some people like zoa's, some like chalices, acans, acros, clownfish, anthias, groupers, DIY, etc etc. My niche is surgeonfish. I'm by no means an expert, but it's what I've dedicated most of my learning to...because I like them so much.

 

[TampaReefer79]

Yeah, the PBT is housed in a tiny tank for years, but it's being upgraded in 3 months now that you've been called out on it. Isn't that always the excuse?

 

[Patroklos]

Yeah, the PBT is housed in a tiny tank for years, but it's being upgraded in 3 months now that you've been called out on it. Isn't that always the excuse?

Its not being upgraded, its beign DISESTABLISHED. I'm in the Navy, and I won't trust the upkeep of a tank to a babysitter while on sea duty.

However, it proves the point. When I established this tank I knew it had a 3 year life span so I could stock accordingly. That means that if I know a fish takes half a decade or more to reach full size, I can house them in a smaller tank since I know I won't have them at full size.

Your only logical objection is that you don't believe people when they say they are going to upgrade later or find the fish a new home. Thats fine, but you really have no right to call people out individually when you have no idea who they are or what their level of dedication to their pets are.

 

[TampaReefer79]

Its not being upgraded, its beign DISESTABLISHED. I'm in the Navy, and I won't trust the upkeep of a tank to a babysitter while on sea duty.

However, it proves the point. When I established this tank I knew it had a 3 year life span so I could stock accordingly. That means that if I know a fish takes half a decade or more to reach full size, I can house them in a smaller tank since I know I won't have them at full size.

Your only logical objection is that you don't believe people when they say they are going to upgrade later or find the fish a new home. Thats fine, but you really have no right to call people out individually when you have no idea who they are or what their level of dedication to their pets are.

Navy. Figures. :lolspin:

I wouldn't leave a tank to a babysitter either. I guess we just have to agree to disagree. You knew this fish would be in this little tank for 3 years and put it in there anyway. You say you have dedication to your pets...so then you should have known that this was a bad idea. Even for your perceived 'short time frame' of 3 years. By your math, your fish should be past half of it's adult size, and you still have it in a 65 gallon tank. That's just not a good idea to try and pass on to others. As I said earlier, I gurantee your fish is undersized for it's age. IF it takes 5+ years (your math) to reach adult size, your fish will take much longer having been housed in such small quarters. If you pass this fish off to someone with an appropriate tank for it, I bet it will grow quickly. It might not reach it's 9" adult size, but it won't be due to being in a 65 gallon tank.



P.S. I've said all I needed to say on this topic...about 4 times. No sense in repeating myself. I don't like a tang (let alone a powder blue) in a 65 gallon tank for 3 months, let alone 3 years. End of story.

 

[silverfly]

Here we go again. What worries me is this-if a pbt in a 65g is so bad, how bad is it to take them from the sea in the first place? Many die in transit before they reach us.
We cant sit all 'high and mighty' just because our one PBT is the one that lived out of many that didnt make it.

 

[TampaReefer79]

Here we go again. What worries me is this-if a pbt in a 65g is so bad, how bad is it to take them from the sea in the first place? Many die in transit before they reach us.
We cant sit all 'high and mighty' just because our one PBT is the one that lived out of many that didnt make it.

You know, I never thought of it that way. I may have to reconsider everything I believe in just because of your analogy!!! :idea:

Since a lot of fish die before they reach my tank, I can house them in any size tank I want! Who cares if it's actually big enough or not. :hmm3:

 

[BrianD]

We're done here.