Tank raised yellow tangs from Sustainable Aquatics
- Thread starter RobertK
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RobertK
Premium Member
They are "tank raised", not captive bred. Not sure what size they are when collected.
WuHT: Agree w/ your points 1 and 2 but not 3. Natural populations have been depleted IMO due to the popularity of the fish. They are hardy from the ocean, but I'm wondering if the tank raised are any hardier.
I'm also wondering if the collection of juvenile fish has any less of an impact on wild populations than the collection of adults. The arguments are that the survival rate of the juvenile fish is lower than that of adults, and that by capturing juveniles it leaves the breeding population on the reefs, but I'm not sure how much truth there is in that.
This is the only information I have been able to find on them:
http://www.sustainablereefs.com/?q=node/291
If anyone has any other thoughts or info I'd be interested.
Thanks,
RK
WuHT: Agree w/ your points 1 and 2 but not 3. Natural populations have been depleted IMO due to the popularity of the fish. They are hardy from the ocean, but I'm wondering if the tank raised are any hardier.
I'm also wondering if the collection of juvenile fish has any less of an impact on wild populations than the collection of adults. The arguments are that the survival rate of the juvenile fish is lower than that of adults, and that by capturing juveniles it leaves the breeding population on the reefs, but I'm not sure how much truth there is in that.
This is the only information I have been able to find on them:
http://www.sustainablereefs.com/?q=node/291
If anyone has any other thoughts or info I'd be interested.
Thanks,
RK
poolkeeper1
New member
Disease
Disease
Right off the bat Disease would be the #1 reason, As around 50% of all wild caught fish are doomed to perish before you even get them. JMO
Bill
Disease
Right off the bat Disease would be the #1 reason, As around 50% of all wild caught fish are doomed to perish before you even get them. JMO
Bill
It is ALL marketing. You can't call it tank raised, if your not actually raising it. Such BS. All the "tank-raised" fish floating around lately are just collected small, and when they look good shipped. So basically any and every fish would be tank raised under these rules. There are no larval fish involved in the process. No one is raising any tangs these days.
Jacob D
New member
What I would like to know about the "tank raised" fish from Sustainable Aquatics is: why isn't there any information their website?... or is there and I have just never found it?
I haven't seen any of the yellow tangs yet, but in the past there have been some P. hepatus for sale at LA/DD. In fact I purchased one of them, mainly because I was looking for a very small blue tang and my experience with DD has been typically excellent. I don't know how "tank raised" the fish truly is, but it has been a very healthy little fish, in fact it's one of two fish that survived a major tank crash earlier this year.
I do find it interesting, puzzling, maybe even disturbing that there seems to be little if any concrete info regarding what constitutes as a "tank raised" fish...
I haven't seen any of the yellow tangs yet, but in the past there have been some P. hepatus for sale at LA/DD. In fact I purchased one of them, mainly because I was looking for a very small blue tang and my experience with DD has been typically excellent. I don't know how "tank raised" the fish truly is, but it has been a very healthy little fish, in fact it's one of two fish that survived a major tank crash earlier this year.
I do find it interesting, puzzling, maybe even disturbing that there seems to be little if any concrete info regarding what constitutes as a "tank raised" fish...
RobertK
Premium Member
My understanding of the definitions of tank/captive bred and tank raised has always been in line with the definitions Tim posted. That is why I don't know what to make of these "tank raised" tangs. According to the link I posted above, "The fact that these fish are hand caught without the use of chemicals at a size when they have just settled into their juvenile habitats make this method much more sustainable" - based on that description they would not appear to meet the above definition of "tank raised." Still, I would like to know if taking baby fish out of the sea has any less of an impact on wild populations as the taking of adults, as claimed.
Jacob D
New member
Hey Tim, while I don't disagree with your definition of tank-raised, the point I was trying to make is: what standard is SA using for their tank-raised fish, and is it published on their website anywhere? I haven't seen it.
Honestly, I couldn't tell ya. Haven't searched their website for info. But after seeing the fish for sale on DD, I know they aren't tank raised. For starters, they are tangs, which have a very difficult larval cycle to crack. Also, they are so small. So basically, they collect extremely tiny fish, and keep them til they look nice and sell 'em. Why are they calling them tank-raised? Because everyone in the aquarium trade will gobble up anything they think is aquacultured over wild caught, without even thinking about it. So while it probably isn't published on their site, I'm guessing they have collectors looking for fish within certain size limits, just much smaller size limits 
interesting discussion.
My understanding of tank-raised is that very small individuals, potentially even larval stages are caught and raised in a protected environment.
I think there very well could be an environmental benefit from this practice and it lies in the fact that these tiny fish probably have a very high attrition rate in the wild, unlike much larger specimens, many of which will actually go on to successfully spawn if left in the wild. So, the overall environmental impact would be less because you are taking out fish that otherwise would probably not have survived and leaving in fish that will reproduce. Obviously, if the harvesting practices are destructive, or raising the "baby" fish is environmentally problematic, the balance may be tipped towards no benefit or maybe even overall environmental harm.
My understanding of tank-raised is that very small individuals, potentially even larval stages are caught and raised in a protected environment.
I think there very well could be an environmental benefit from this practice and it lies in the fact that these tiny fish probably have a very high attrition rate in the wild, unlike much larger specimens, many of which will actually go on to successfully spawn if left in the wild. So, the overall environmental impact would be less because you are taking out fish that otherwise would probably not have survived and leaving in fish that will reproduce. Obviously, if the harvesting practices are destructive, or raising the "baby" fish is environmentally problematic, the balance may be tipped towards no benefit or maybe even overall environmental harm.
I know nothing about the company the OP originally spoke of, so my comments are not based on their practices (as I do not know what they are.)
But I will say that I see nothing wrong with labeling a fish that hatched in the ocean and was caught before settlement and reared in an artifical environment as "tank raised," as that seems to be the logical definition of the word. If you go out and collect eggs from the ocean and hatch them in an artifical environment & raise the fish, then I would think that one would want to call that fish "tank hatched." Afterall, if the parents are bred in an artifical environment, we call that fish "tank bred" and if they are collected from the ocean post settlement we call them "wild caught." Why not use the terms so that they are self-explanatory?
As for the benefit -- I quote from Matt Wittenrich's book, The complete illustrated breeder's guide to marine aquarium fishes (c. 2007.) First, p. 18 shows a "Filipino aquaculture worker with a small Copperband Butterfly caught as a settlement-stage larva and raised to market size." Then, on p. 275, there is a box labeled "'Tank-raised' fishes" and these quotes come from there: "At the completion of metamorphosis, juvenile fish are ill-suited to living in the open ocean, where their colors and sizes render them easy targets to keen-eyed predators. [...] Entrepreneurs in South Pacific areas have recently begun using this technique [light trapping] to collect settlement-stage reef fish for the aquarium trade. After capture, juvenile fish are transported to a holding facility consisting of large fiberglass or concrete tubs. Here, they are grown to saleable size and labeled 'captive-raised' or 'tank-raised.' [He goes on to say that light trapping is labor intensive, you are at the mercy of the sea and don't always catch saleable fish, but the method is safe for the fish.] The harvest of pre-settlement stage reef fish is considered a sustainable practice. [emphasis mine] Juvenile reef fishes undergo extreme mortality shortly after settlement and by removing juvenile fishes before they are exposed to heavy losses reduces the impact on adult populations."
So, the biggest benefit that I see is that someone w/ his doctorate in marine biology (and a great interest in tank-bred fish) labels the practice as sustainable.
But I will say that I see nothing wrong with labeling a fish that hatched in the ocean and was caught before settlement and reared in an artifical environment as "tank raised," as that seems to be the logical definition of the word. If you go out and collect eggs from the ocean and hatch them in an artifical environment & raise the fish, then I would think that one would want to call that fish "tank hatched." Afterall, if the parents are bred in an artifical environment, we call that fish "tank bred" and if they are collected from the ocean post settlement we call them "wild caught." Why not use the terms so that they are self-explanatory?
As for the benefit -- I quote from Matt Wittenrich's book, The complete illustrated breeder's guide to marine aquarium fishes (c. 2007.) First, p. 18 shows a "Filipino aquaculture worker with a small Copperband Butterfly caught as a settlement-stage larva and raised to market size." Then, on p. 275, there is a box labeled "'Tank-raised' fishes" and these quotes come from there: "At the completion of metamorphosis, juvenile fish are ill-suited to living in the open ocean, where their colors and sizes render them easy targets to keen-eyed predators. [...] Entrepreneurs in South Pacific areas have recently begun using this technique [light trapping] to collect settlement-stage reef fish for the aquarium trade. After capture, juvenile fish are transported to a holding facility consisting of large fiberglass or concrete tubs. Here, they are grown to saleable size and labeled 'captive-raised' or 'tank-raised.' [He goes on to say that light trapping is labor intensive, you are at the mercy of the sea and don't always catch saleable fish, but the method is safe for the fish.] The harvest of pre-settlement stage reef fish is considered a sustainable practice. [emphasis mine] Juvenile reef fishes undergo extreme mortality shortly after settlement and by removing juvenile fishes before they are exposed to heavy losses reduces the impact on adult populations."
So, the biggest benefit that I see is that someone w/ his doctorate in marine biology (and a great interest in tank-bred fish) labels the practice as sustainable.
Larval fish are very fragile and small and require different foods than fish post-settlement. I don't think they are collecting larval stage tangs... they are collecting post settlement tangs. If they were collecting fish pre-settlement I would have no problem agreeing they are tank-raised, but until there is some proof, I will doubt it.
Also, I have spoken to Matt on this issue and he is in agreement with me (I go to the same school..). Also he isn't quite a doctorate yet but I think he is due to be done this school year.
I am under the understanding that very small, even tiny fish are collected post-settlement, kept til they look good and shipped off. Until there is proof otherwise, that is what I'll believe.
Also, I have spoken to Matt on this issue and he is in agreement with me (I go to the same school..). Also he isn't quite a doctorate yet
but I think he is due to be done this school year.I am under the understanding that very small, even tiny fish are collected post-settlement, kept til they look good and shipped off. Until there is proof otherwise, that is what I'll believe.
But, of course, they ARE wild caught.
Like I said, I have no idea what Sustainable Aquatics' practices are... My only point was that I do not think it is disingenuous to call fish that are collected in the wild at settlement stage and reared in captivity "tank-raised."
As for the PhD -- the book said he was working on it, and I figured it would be a bigger faux pas to assume he did not get the degree than to assume that he did -- thanks for the correction.
Using the link to the company's website that was posted above, it seems to me that the company in question is being quite up front about what it is that they are doing. Here is a quote from the site from that main page: "Our Sustainable Islands (SI) project is involved in collecting tiny fish recently settled onto the reef from their planktonic stage, which we then grow for a minimum duration in our specialized grow-out facility in Tennessee. Young juvenile fish grow at an amazing rate given our proprietary feeds and husbandry techniques. Due to natural low juvenile survivability on the reef, this method is more sustainable and has been documented to help keep breeding populations intact. The smaller size also reduces transport costs, while providing a "tank-raised" or acclimated animal that is already eating common aquarium food and easily adapt to its new life in the retail shop and the hobbyists tank." {All emphasis mine.}
If this is, indeed, what the company is doing, I wouldn't consider it all hype. Even if you doubt whether the fish would more easily adapt to the captive environment of a hobbyist tank, there would be an environmental benefit -- I think that we should support sustainable collection from the wild just like we should boycott fish that have been collected with toxic chemicals. That usually requires a leap of faith of the buyer's part, but since $ talks, our choices when buying are really the most persuasive argument we can make.
As for the PhD -- the book said he was working on it, and I figured it would be a bigger faux pas to assume he did not get the degree than to assume that he did -- thanks for the correction.
Using the link to the company's website that was posted above, it seems to me that the company in question is being quite up front about what it is that they are doing. Here is a quote from the site from that main page: "Our Sustainable Islands (SI) project is involved in collecting tiny fish recently settled onto the reef from their planktonic stage, which we then grow for a minimum duration in our specialized grow-out facility in Tennessee. Young juvenile fish grow at an amazing rate given our proprietary feeds and husbandry techniques. Due to natural low juvenile survivability on the reef, this method is more sustainable and has been documented to help keep breeding populations intact. The smaller size also reduces transport costs, while providing a "tank-raised" or acclimated animal that is already eating common aquarium food and easily adapt to its new life in the retail shop and the hobbyists tank." {All emphasis mine.}
If this is, indeed, what the company is doing, I wouldn't consider it all hype. Even if you doubt whether the fish would more easily adapt to the captive environment of a hobbyist tank, there would be an environmental benefit -- I think that we should support sustainable collection from the wild just like we should boycott fish that have been collected with toxic chemicals. That usually requires a leap of faith of the buyer's part, but since $ talks, our choices when buying are really the most persuasive argument we can make.
MrTuskfish
Team RC
At the risk of sounding like a planet destroying, polar bear killing idiot: I think 95% of similar stuff is just "feel good", like most re-cycling and the ban coming soon to incandescent bulbs. Wait until the light police find out how may watts we throw at our tanks. Better stock up on MH bulbs, they'll be banned soon. (But the LED stuff really looks promising.) My kids Science teacher was actually telling the little minds of mush that re-cycling paper and using fake Christmas trees helped save the rain forest. Paper is not made from mahogany or teak and Christmas trees are grown on farms; sadly, this was all news to the teacher.
But on the topic: raising delicate species from juvi to a decent size makes sense---you should end up with a hardier fish. It is really nothing more than a long acclimation process.
worldnewsmap
New member
I used to work for sustainable and what they do is basically have them caught when they are about 2 to 3 inches big and shipped to their facility in Johnson city then t on they make sure they are healthy and get them eating and have them grow a lil bigger than ship them out the good thing about this is that you are getting some nice colored fish that are healthy the place is very serious about their protocals on how to handle them and what is done to them
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