The Cube of Death

[JohnnyRedd]

For those that were following the ammonia thread it got down to just below .25 (a little green) and stayed. She waited a week and added 1 fish. Square back anthia.
That night (Thursday) the two firefish disappeared.

This morning the anthia was dead. (4 inch long fish - good sized)

Water tests great, a hint of ammonia.

120 cube. 35 gallon sump. Reef Octopus skimmer. Used some old rock and some new.

Anytime more than 3 fish are in the tank something dies. Been doing this since the tank went online at Thanksgiving.

Any ideas on ***?

Present plan is to drain. Take out the roughly 50 Nerite snails, cherub angel and golden head sleeper goby (that have been in there since the beginning) and start over. New rock. New sand.

Thoughts?

 

[CrayolaViolence]

If you have ammonia in the tank then it's most likely not suitable for inhabitants. Ammonia needs to be 0 in order for the fish to survive.

Do you know if you have chloramine in your tap water? If you are using tap water to fill your tank?

 

[Grimreaperz]

How much rock do you have?
For there still to be ammonia after this long means something if definitely out of whack.....but it should definitely be 0 ammonia traces are even to much...its probably killing your inverts in turn causing them to decay and then an endless cycle.

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[CarrieB]

Are you sure there isn't a testing issue? Seems crazy that there would still be ammonia.


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[JohnnyRedd]

We had a long thread on this with several weeks of tank parameters and she quit updating it. Tank went live in November. 2 firefish, 1 cherub angel and 1 golden head sleeper goby have been in there since the beginning. Well till Thursday. Any time she adds anything else it dies.

We use API and Sailfert tests. Both show ammonia.

We use tap water. We use Reef Crystals. My 240 gets the same water, same salt, same food. It's fine. It is not a water issue. Both tanks test the same (except for ammonia).

She will post two pictures. One of the sand bed before feeding and afterwards. Nothing wrong with her inverts - pretty amazing pictures, actually. A little food hits the tank and almost instantly there are 50-75 snails coming out of the sand.

I ordered 100 pounds of new rock.

Keep the sand or dump it? It was new - caribsea. It will kep kept wet waiting on the new rock but not warm.

 

[Kurt03]

I would leave the tank as is and feed light and don't add anything for 1-2 months. Water change and dose some prime to take care of the little ammonia you have. Are you noticing any dead snails? Is there algae for them to eat?

Don't add anything till tank tests zero for a week+. Sounds like it never completely cycled. Maybe get some bio spira or Fritz zyme to speed it up.

Also new rock = 2 month cycle before fish etc. Tank must test 0 for ammonia and nitrite, and show some nitrate.

 

[Jaadep]

The first pic is the sand bed as it normally looks. The second pic the the sand bed 15 seconds later after food went into the tank. There are no snails dying in the tank

 

[Jaadep]

Well it posted them backwards but you can see them anyway

 

[JohnnyRedd]

I would leave the tank as is and feed light and don't add anything for 1-2 months. Water change and dose some prime to take care of the little ammonia you have. Are you noticing any dead snails? Is there algae for them to eat?

Don't add anything till tank tests zero for a week+. Sounds like it never completely cycled. Maybe get some bio spira or Fritz zyme to speed it up.

Also new rock = 2 month cycle before fish etc. Tank must test 0 for ammonia and nitrite, and show some nitrate.

3 bottles of Bio-Spira. 1 bottle of Stability. Bi weekly 10% water changes. I've been doing this 6 years now and went from 55 to 125 to 180 to 240. Ain't seen anything like this.

see pictures above - snails are fine.

 

[salty joe]

The death cube is in close proximity to another reef tank with no issues and uses the same salt, same water and same test kits. They are exposed to the same ambient air. So we can rule all that out. Is it possible a bird or cat or some animal is peeing in the tank?

If it were me, I'd do nothing but feed just enough to keep the animals in the tank alive and wait it out. Or tear it down and start over, ditching all rock and sand.

 

[JohnnyRedd]

Came in from a bike ride and turned on the lights. The firefish came out. Cherub is fine and so is the goldenhead.

The original 4.

So why does every fish we put in above 4 die?

What could they have become immune to?

Still think nuke and restart is the answer. At least it eliminates and rock questions.

 

[Dan_P]

What is the source of the fish? Same vendor or different?

How do the fish get fo your home?

How are the fish acclimated?

I do not believe you have an ammonia problem but maybe a fish sourcing problem (I haven't researched the possibility of a boat load of Nerite snail being mildly toxic). Interpreting results of test kits at their low range may be very difficult by eye. I don't just the results you are reporting. Testing an ammonia standard at the concentration you believe you have would be the only way to resolve this,

I wouldn't do anything drastic just yet.

 

[CrayolaViolence]

Came in from a bike ride and turned on the lights. The firefish came out. Cherub is fine and so is the goldenhead.

The original 4.

So why does every fish we put in above 4 die?

What could they have become immune to?

Still think nuke and restart is the answer. At least it eliminates and rock questions.

Because the fish you have are acclimated to the conditions. New fish are not. If you're getting an ammonia reading then that is more than likely what is killing the fish. Of course it could also be the fish killing the new fish. Angels can be very territorial. And fire fish will kill other fire fish so it's quite possible they will harass attack other fish of similar shape and size.

 

[JohnnyRedd]

Because the fish you have are acclimated to the conditions. New fish are not. If you're getting an ammonia reading then that is more than likely what is killing the fish. Of course it could also be the fish killing the new fish. Angels can be very territorial. And fire fish will kill other fire fish so it's quite possible they will harass attack other fish of similar shape and size.

As I said before we've done this for years, we are familiar with fish compatibility and practice good husbandry. Nothing incompatible has been added and I don't think anything has been smaller than the angel.

 

[JohnnyRedd]

What is the source of the fish? Same vendor or different?

How do the fish get fo your home?

How are the fish acclimated?

I do not believe you have an ammonia problem but maybe a fish sourcing problem (I haven't researched the possibility of a boat load of Nerite snail being mildly toxic). Interpreting results of test kits at their low range may be very difficult by eye. I don't just the results you are reporting. Testing an ammonia standard at the concentration you believe you have would be the only way to resolve this,

I wouldn't do anything drastic just yet.

Some we drive some have come Fedex, etc. Drip acclimation using AmGuard.

2 sets of black ice clowns (Sustainable Aquatics, Chicago) 1 pair blacker ice clowns (Below Sea Level Jackson, TN) (the fish she really wanted along with the cherub) 4 inch long squareback anthia (Petco Southaven), 3 lyretail anthias (Something Fishy Memphis), 3 reef chromis (Petco Memphis), a kole tang I moved from the 240 and a few others.

I ordered the rock. Don't know what else to do. The ammonia is not a constant. It fluctuates and as I said she stopped reporting back daily so we lost a several weeks old thread with all that data. It ranges from a nice green (no pun) .50 to a barely green .1ish. It does not matter if we use API or Salifert. During this time nothing was added and the corals were all fine. That's another mystery - all the corals open. Every day. No matter what the readings.

First tank I have not started with all new rock. I keep going back to that. Sump and skimmer came from my 180. Rock did too. Sat outside for a couple of months.

 

[Bagabaga]

Gonna sound dumb but here goes, the dead fish were removed right? Not just left for the snails to eat?

What's your ph?

Is there a humongous dead something inside one of the rocks you used from the other tank?

Are there any major dead zones in the tank or sump that could be accumulating detritus? Sounds like there's a huge stash of food rotting somewhere in there.

 

[JohnnyRedd]

Gonna sound dumb but here goes, the dead fish were removed right? Not just left for the snails to eat?

What's your ph?

Is there a humongous dead something inside one of the rocks you used from the other tank?

Are there any major dead zones in the tank or sump that could be accumulating detritus? Sounds like there's a huge stash of food rotting somewhere in there.

At this point nothing is dumb. Everything dead is removed when it's seen.

I wrote both down at 8.15 the last 3 tests. (run all tests every 2 weeks on Sunday)

I have thought of that but wouldn't we have a huge spike? 5 months of constant .25 to .5...

No dead spots. The returns are pointed to the front of the tank and the side. (imagine an L) on the back is a Gyre. We moved it down about 3 inches and once a week (for the last two weeks) she has to bring sand back to the front of the tank. Corals that sway are always swaying.

The snails... as soon as any food hits the water they emerge.

 

[Bagabaga]

Could it be the snails waste is staying in the sand bed and leaching ammonia slowly? But that can't be it because the sand it shifting from the gyre.

What about testing your tap water for ammonia? Personally I use rodi water and wouldn't go back to treated tap ever. What about testing fresh mixed saltwater? What mixing container are you using? Is the container cleaned and sanitized after every use? (I.e. Drying completely) how much food is fed? Is it home made food? You could try chopped clams mussels and scallops from fresh and freeze them.

 

[aznflyfisherman]

What are the rest of your readings? Sg, calc, ...?

 

[bertoni]

The presence of ammonia is a bad sign. I'd watch the level for a while, to see whether it hits zero, unless you're sure you're going to tear down the tank.