The days of buying decent sized corals for decent prices is over.

[Heuristic]

I remember those days... now everything is designer. But I'm looking at things differently. Back then I didn't take care of things the way I do now. I never thought I'd spend 200 on a tiny bounce but now I'm willing too because of the stage my tank is in. I dunno... I agree prices are crazy sometimes but I don't mind buying a small frag to see the discipline of watching it grow pay dividends... I guess I'm contributing to the high costs by paying the high costs

When I restart my tank this is more of the mindset that I'm going to have on it. Before I bought a pretty cheap frags and a few middle of the road stuff and found myself really only enjoying the middle of the road stuff and had to keep moving my cheap stuff out of the way LOL

 

[EMeyer]

To me it's sorta like a big box store or my local harware store.
At the big box they ask "what do you need?"
At the local store they ask "what are you trying to do?"

As an aside, that is very high on the list of the reasons I prefer Home Depot to local hardware stores any day.

"What am I trying to do? Oh, are you gonna refer me to your aquarium specialist? How about instead of asking a bunch of questions you tell me where the 1" ball valves are and get out of my way?"

Same with LFS. Its like, I asked if you have any cleaner shrimp in stock. I did not invite a bunch of questions about the size of my tank, my nutrient levels, or ask for your "helpful advice"

Of course, buying online is obviously better than both for the same reason.

 

[Crusty Old Shellback]

It's been going on for years, it didn't just start the last few years.

What we used to sell as frags, one day became called colonies. Then what they were selling as frags, later became called colonies. The last time I was at our club frag swap, some years ago, what a lot of people were selling as frags looked more like stuff we used to throw away.
Steve Garrett was about the only person I remember at that swap who was selling what people would call mini colonies for about the same price as others were selling their miniscule frags for. He never gouged the hobby.

All of the naming of corals and Limited editions, etc, can be traced back to a few people who started it. They took a piece of coral that they found interesting, usually from some one else's tank, stuck a name, a L.E. and a high price on it. It snowballed from there. So we have ourselves and a few others to blame for the high prices.

I've given away frags of stuff people were selling for high prices. They complained to me because I was "cutting into their sales". But I thought this was a hobby?

This is also one of the other reasons I left the hobby. People and companies price gouged for frags and even equipment. Put a Reef ready/ reef only moniker on it and charge double for it. But you will never be able to stop it, or even slow it down.

I remember back in the day ( I know, here we go with that line again) I got involved in what was called a Zoa thermos trade. It was done right here on reef central. People would sign up on a list as to how many frags of Zoa's you were willing to trade. Minimum frag was 5 polyps. You would match up with people and send them some frags and they would send some to you, wrapped in wet paper in plastic bags inside a thermos. You paid for your own shipping.
We all wound up with some amassing Zoa's for our collections. Good luck seeing that happen again.

 

[d2mini]

Even though I agree with the OP in some ways, you also can't compare some of the crazy stuff that is available today to what was available 10-20 years ago.
I'll sell you that old school green torch for $5/head too.

And some of the collection bans aren't helping either.

 

[alton]

You could compare buying colonies of coral to adult fish in the old days. Today we buy frags and juvenile fish which ship and acclimate better to our tanks. It could almost be considered a more responsible thing to do? And like d2mini said today's coral is so much nicer than 15 years ago

 

[EMeyer]

I dont think you can explain all of the price gouging with improvements in the coral.

The common corals are also being sold for high prices. Look up the prices of Sinularia, Xenia, or common hard corals like Pocillopora. Based on the marginal costs of production these corals should be nearly free (or maybe $5-10). Instead youll find them listed at $30+.

The price of "collector" corals affects the price of common corals, and the price of common corals affects the price of "collector" corals.

Just like any other industry, the solution is for one or more large vendors to target bargain shoppers with a low cost high volume business model, and for consumers to express a preference.

Threads like this are part of expressing that preference, but the more important part is to reward vendors who offer low prices and shun vendors who sell overpriced corals.

 

[Fourstars]

The hobby is moving to a more substainable future. Get use to it.

 

[newbie2014]

Whats funny for me is the reef places i have which is about 4 or 5 of em.. only 1 has nice employees.. The rest are jerks.. I remember one i went too when i first started salt water and enquired about the tank size i had and i had no sump or special equipment and he kept saying oh that tank wont work.. well what about my 92g cornee bwofront or my 135.. na they wont either... You should buy this tank with an overflow.


I laughed and walked out... I went back in 4 months later and showed him my tank and said remember me ?? He went quiet..

The other store near me is supreme reefs.. who is run by a asian guy named Ben. he apparently is some big shot at coral competitions and stuff and has many awards and some people online may know him.. First time i walked in his store he was really cool helpfull and explained i dont need phosphates and nitrates at 0 to be sucessfull with corals he showed me his 450g display tank and nitrates were 40ppm in it and he had some crazy corals in there... But the 2nd time i went in it changed.


Soon as i got out of my Jeep with my girl friend the garage door opened and a plume of weed smoke came out with some rasta music and i was taken back... Sorry smoke at your house not your place of business.. For one its illegal in virginia.. two i dont need THC in my corals im buying. And theee i dont want to breathe 2nd hand smoke in.. Weed or not seriously.

He was also rude to my gf and ignored me the whole time when i needed help.. Then he wouldnt tive me the 20% discount his craigslist page mentioned.

The 3rd place is just hella expensive and rhey have a poor selection of anything.. They mainly clean and setup ppls tanks.


the 4th place was really cool.. nice people at first.. Then on black friday i got shoved into a can of salt water by a customer with my leather jack on my arm was soaked and i was ****ED he lucky i didnt dunk his head into the coral tanks... I mentioned it to the employee they just went eh its black friday... Sorry if that was my store... shoving and pushing id kick those people out. Then on top of that he sold a torch coral with 3 heads i inquired about but had to wait for to a customer who heard about the peice when i inquired.. Then claims it was taken already .. Bulllll. to me thats just rude.

I WONT spend a dime in places with potheads.. rude employees and high prices... Sorry.

Thats why i stick to petco.. i can order any coral i want and they have a huge coral tank with nice affordable corals and ive never had an issue with employees working there.


Sorry to say but ill support a big box store over any local store with potheads and jerks working in them.. Also in the end im not a charity i dont make tons of money to blow... So why pay 60$ for coral when petco has the same exact coral for 30$ from ORA or something ? So i should spend more money to support my local store and have less money in my bank account ? Thats not how life works for me..

Don't mean to derail the thread, but I find this post insightful and mirrors my experiences locally. :beer: Have they kicked you out of the club yet? Ben is one of the sponsors. I'm too from NOVA. Please pm me the location of your preferred Petco. I'd like to check it out too.

Like others has said; there's no stopping to these price gauging trends. You have to pay to play, kinda. It's just a hobby to me, and I don't lose sleep over it. I only buy the cheap colorful frags that I can find, then let them grow. Once they're big, I'll split them and give away or trade for other colorful frags. Sorry, I'm not spending that kind of money for anything that bounces or has Jason or WWC in its name.

I got into reef for cheap, so I don't expect to make money out of it. It's nothing wrong for those who spend tons of money to keep their systems in tip-top shape to try to make some money of of it.

 

[d2mini]

The hobby is moving to a more substainable future. Get use to it.

This is true too.
Colonies were wild caught. Poor chance of survival in our tanks and higher risk of pests.
Now most coral is aquacultured.

 

[EMeyer]

There is no reason why more aquacultured corals has to lead to higher prices. Aquaculture increases supply, reduces shipping costs, and reduces losses to mortality.

People who say there is no stopping the price trends have apparently not paid enough attention to any other markets or industries. Right now the vendors are working on a low volume high profit margins model. Its possible for a new vendor to compete successfully with a high volume low profit margin model, if there is enough demand.

 

[Fourstars]

That's correct, The market and supply will determine the trend, Which will be self correcting.

 

[d2mini]

There is no reason why more aquacultured corals has to lead to higher prices. Aquaculture increases supply, reduces shipping costs, and reduces losses to mortality.

Maybe you can explain that further.
An LFS can get boxes of wild caught colonies for cheap!
The higher end aquacultured stuff is often hand collected by the collector, nursed in their system for months to years, and then finally being fragged and sold. There's a whole middle man, facility and time that is not present with the wild stuff. It's like fish from Divers Den vs standard L.A. Or the cost of fish bred in captivity vs wild caught.

 

[newbie2014]

.........People who say there is no stopping the price trends have apparently not paid enough attention to any other markets or industries. Right now the vendors are working on a low volume high profit margins model. Its possible for a new vendor to compete successfully with a high volume low profit margin model, if there is enough demand.

Greed never ceases...........

There's always gonna be the next "extremely rare", "wild-caught only", "highly prized", "collectible", and fancy-named corals. People always aim to maximize their profit no matter how small their expenditures.

Yes, vendors can continue pumping out a once prized coral that has become a dime-in-a dozen, but just like you said: if there is enough demand. It's possible, but probable? Usually once something becomes "common", the demand drops dramatically. The vendors then simply move on to the next more profitable and "in demand" stuff.

 

[brian3]

Electricity for lighting and water movement is not cheap for the aquacultured coral, look how much we spend on it each month and translate that into a larger facility. Not sure how you can make any meaningful margin when selling as low as $30 a pop once you account for all that went into it.

 

[sde1500]

There is no reason why more aquacultured corals has to lead to higher prices. Aquaculture increases supply, reduces shipping costs, and reduces losses to mortality.

People who say there is no stopping the price trends have apparently not paid enough attention to any other markets or industries. Right now the vendors are working on a low volume high profit margins model. Its possible for a new vendor to compete successfully with a high volume low profit margin model, if there is enough demand.

Really? No reason at all for higher prices? I'm curious what industry you'd compare this to that is high volume and low cost. Because I can't think of one really to compare. You make it sound so simple, you should launch a high volume store. Idk what you'll need. Do you plan on making a few corals grow super fast? If so can you share your secrets because so many corals grow so slow it'd be nice to speed them up? Or do you plan on acquiring huge quantities of corals to grow? What space will you need? What lights, skimmers, grow out tanks or troughs etc? Look around at what people spend on a single tank. Then consider how big a facility you'd need to grow out huge quantities of corals for this hobby. And all the gear, employees, energy costs, taxes, etc. Them compare that to what it costs to collect colonies grown in the ocean for free, and shipped anywhere.

 

[EMeyer]

Not sure why basic statements about business models are proving so controversial. A business can survive with either high volume, low margin or with high margin, low volume. You can make either model give the same total revenue, on paper. Of course, the details matter in terms of what can be achieved in reality (e.g. maximum coral growth rates, etc).

But the fact that there are online vendors, coral farms, and hobbyists who grow and sell corals for $5-$10 each means it can be done. I've almost never spent more than $20 for a frag, and most have been closer to $10.

So it is possible, and in principle can be as profitable a business model as the current low volume, high profit margin model. No one said it was simple to start a business, regardless of the model.

But this discussion is about the inevitability of high prices. I am arguing it is anything but inevitable.

(I confine all the above comments to common corals. There are always going to expensive corals on the list as a result of rarity, growth rates, or difficulty making frags)

 

[sde1500]

Not sure why basic statements about business models are proving so controversial. A business can survive with either high volume, low margin or with high margin, low volume. You can make either model give the same total revenue, on paper. Of course, the details matter in terms of what can be achieved in reality (e.g. maximum coral growth rates, etc).

So you just point out why it is "controversial". Because it is an overly generalized statement that isn't based on anything. Most corals people want to buy aren't fast growers. Most SPS and LPS, and even some zoas don't grow fast at all. So its super easy to say "high volume" but in reality the only way that one could really achieve that is through a very large and expensive facility. That won't suddenly make corals cheap.

But the fact that there are online vendors, coral farms, and hobbyists who grow and sell corals for $5-$10 each means it can be done. I've almost never spent more than $20 for a frag, and most have been closer to $10.

I too haven't spent a ton on most corals, between scooping them up at the end of frag swaps from hobbyists not there looking to make big profits or just buying no namers from the LFS. However using hobbyists selling cheap corals as an example of success is disingenuous, they aren't in it for a profit. And Businesses can't be sustained on $10 xenia frags.

So it is possible, and in principle can be as profitable a business model as the current low volume, high profit margin model. No one said it was simple to start a business, regardless of the model.

Anything is possible when you just write out whatever you want on paper without really creating a business model to prove it out.

(I confine all the above comments to common corals. There are always going to expensive corals on the list as a result of rarity, growth rates, or difficulty making frags)

And there's the rub, you just excluded the vast majority of corals hobbyists like buying.

 

[d2mini]

I'll you this whole colony for only $50! It's a steal!!!! Who's in?

 

[jbvdhp]

Funny you mention this. I was just talking to a buddy of mine and we used to buy Indo colonies like this about 2.5 years ago for 125-175$ all day.

This efflo colony cost me a whopping $125.
I can't WAIT until this Indo ban is over if ever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sde1500]

Funny you mention this. I was just talking to a buddy of mine and we used to buy Indo colonies like this about 2.5 years ago for 125-175$ all day.

This efflo colony cost me a whopping $125.
I can't WAIT until this Indo ban is over if ever.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yea I think if Indo opens back up I'm immediately setting up a stock holding tank and ordering a couple boxes of coral.