The Good The Bad And The Ugly – A Reefkeeper’s Journal

[WDLV]

The Good The Bad And The Ugly â€"œ A Reefkeeper’s Journal

I suppose this will be the best place for this thread, because I plan for this to be an ongoing thread and my primary focus is on anemonefish.

I wanted to start anew in a new thread that tells the beauty and sometimes the brutal truth about my hobby. I have a lot of experience in this hobby. To some my experience and knowledge is vast. To others (and me) my knowledge is perhaps a little half-vast. I am currently a member of several online communities. I have seen that in a lot of those communities, there are members who shine. Some because they are great reefers or breeders. Others because they only show you the good sides of their hobby and they're pretty good overall. I am interested in showing a deeper truth with hopes that I can both give and get more from this hobby. I hope that what follows will benefit others by giving ideas of what to do and what not to do. I also hope that others will participate in this thread, by posting pictures and experiences of their own reefs that will add to the educational benefit of the thread.
I will use RC links to reference older threads for further reading. Some more detailed information may be found in your local club, but for ease of use, RC is the biggest club with which most of you are members.

Now without further a due, here’s where I am currently….

Bad news first.
I decided to post a thread about a week ago in the hopes of helping others with the quarantine process. (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1377081) For about a year I’ve been using the same methods involving hypo-salinity (1.009) and Kordon Formalin III for all maladies.
I have bought a lot of fish lately and added some to my clown rack (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1369240) that maybe went in a bit earlier than I would have advised others to do. I noticed a few ick spots on several of my fish

and I have for a long time now been reluctant to use Copper for some bad experiences I’ve had in the past. I decided it was time I became comfortable with it. As a result I lost my male latezonatus clown and expect to loose my female inside the next 48 hours.

A couple weeks ago while I was in Ohio my Female from my other pair jumped out of the 210 gallon (http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=955069&perpage=25&pagenumber=1). Lesson learned there, I need some egg crate over every one of my tanks. So, yes that means I will be in the market for some juvenile latz as soon as I get things squared away again. For the time being, I’ll have to simply be happy with having one as a pet. I also expect to loose a polymnus clown that’s been battling bi-lateral eye infections.

Just as I saw the last time I used copper several years ago the ick seemed to blast out of control as soon as I added the copper. Some fish were completely covered in it. This happened with every fish in the system. By day three (today) the ones who were sickest, continued on this downward course while others seem to be improving. I am doing a 50% water change and dosing the makeup water with Coppersafe and Formalin 3 per the manufacturer’s instructions. From what I’ve read, each of these chemicals attacks the paracite in different stages. I plan to add carbon and start clearing out the chemicals after 7 days of treatment. If you have more experience with this stuff than I do and can either give kudos for anything i might be doing right or you know of a way to improve upon the current track I’m on, feel free to comment. This is a pretty depressing time for me and I'm doing the best I can. So please try not to beat up on me too much.

On a lighter note, here are some pics of the 210 that I’m supposedly in the process of shutting down. Also included is what I intend to have as a remote sand bed for my rack system.

 

[WDLV]

Here is a Randall's Damsel Clutch from a pair that's been spawning in the system pretty regularly.

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e92/walterlaroque/April 2008/IMG_0094.jpg
This is one of six anemone clones residing in the 210 gallon. They are the main reason I have been reluctant to dismantle it.

 

[WDLV]

This is the rack system as it looks currently. I plan to make the whole thing 10 gallon tanks with their own filtration and heating. That way if there is ever another case where I need to treat something, it can be treated by itself.

Here's the remote sand bed I plan to attach to the rack system.

 

[WDLV]

I am currently dosing three or four different drugs. All fish are getting coppersafe, Formalin III and Amquel at the recommended dosage. There are too many conflicting reliable resources out there. What I've decided to do is to pick one and run with it.
I'm dosing my latz and polymnus with nitrofurazone as well because of popeye and fin rot. I know it's a lot, but the alternative is not doing anything. There seems to be progress in most of the fish. It's hard to tell with those that are worst off.
Here's my latz last night. At this point I am moving her over to a clean tank each day when I do the water change. It's a PITA but It's worth it if she can be saved.

And for those of you who do not know what to look for when you syphon, look in the spacer where it's dark. You can see the tromonts (I think that's the word) that have fallen off the fish first thing in the morning. These will open and release hundreds more of their demon seed into the system.

 

[WDLV]

I can't believe that here on RC nobody has commented yet. I figured I'd have been bombarded by now. LOL.

 

[wilawalo]

Is it common when setting up a breeding system that you get an outbreak of disease?

 

[GSMguy]

this is really sad Walt, i hate to see stuff like this i really hope your big female makes it.


hopefully the drugs will work.

 

[WDLV]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12431485#post12431485 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by wilawalo
Is it common when setting up a breeding system that you get an outbreak of disease?

I really couldn't tell you. This is my first time trying. I'm sure there's a learning curve for everyone. It sure does suck.

Lost the polymnus and an ocellaris this morning.

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12431489#post12431489 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by GSMguy
this is really sad Walt, i hate to see stuff like this i really hope your big female makes it.


hopefully the drugs will work.

Thanks.

 

[seafansar]

Hope everything goes well. The set up looks pretty nice! I have a bunch of sick fish right now too, so I know what you're going through...

 

[WDLV]

The female latz died too. There are two more that are not eating. One percula and one Female Polymnus. I'll give them a 50/50 chance.

 

[seafansar]

I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully the others will start eating again. It seems like fish go downhill quickly once they stop eating.

 

[wicked_NaCl_h2o]

What kind of copper did you use?

 

[WDLV]

<a href=showthread.php?s=&postid=12431349#post12431349 target=_blank>Originally posted</a> by WDLV
I am currently dosing three or four different drugs. All fish are getting coppersafe , Formalin III and Amquel at the recommended dosage.

The two that popped up most in my searches were coppersafe and cupramine. Coppersafe is chileated (sp?) I don't remember if cupramine is or not.

 

[Big E]

You're using copper & formalin together? That's sounds dangerous. I've only used formalin as a dip treatment.

I've stuck with hypo for ick as I've never been able to find a copper test kit that was accurate enough for me. Without accurate daily readings I'm not sure you can dose copper correctly with any confidence. I've never had to deal with velvet which I think copper is the only treatment?

I've always had a solid bacteria cycle going on in my QT tanks.........chasing that ammonia with Amquel is not easy, along with all those water changes & chemicals, the fish never get a chance to adjust.

One thing you already mentioned, you went to fast......patience is the recipe for healthy fish. Focus on the parasites first, the bacterial infections can be handled later & are usually a result of the damage from the parasites.

I freshwater dip new fish & then put them in the QT tank. I have some links to some very informative acclimation & treatment procedures........if you want them send a PM my way. They are from another reef site.

Just some thoughts

 

[WDLV]

Thanks Ed. I had the system on 1.009 SG and Formalin III for about two months before the ick popped up and went out of control. The reason was that I was doing a prophylactic treatment with hypo and formalin as a precaution on every new arrival for about a week before adding them to the system. I did hypo and formalin in the clown rack as an added precaution while I was adding the new arrivals (nigripes, frenatus and perculas.)

So, I can say with certainty now (unfortunately from personal experience) that hypo is not a 100% effective treatment against ick. Copper will become one step on my quarrantine process of every new arrival.
I'm thinking that it will go something like this:
Week 1 - Hypo and Formalin
Week 2 - Continue Formalin and Bring up the SG to 1.023
Week 3 - Copper at 1.023
Week 4 - Observe with no meds at 1.023
Adjustments can be made at any point if symptoms are present.

If a fish dies during the quarrantine process it is better than having them take the rest of my broodstock with them.

 

[wicked_NaCl_h2o]

Cupramine worked great on my chrysopterus (today is the end of their 14 days of treatment) So I am excited that their treatment is over and they are doing great. I wouldn't use cupramine with formalin though. You don't know how those two meds will react together. If you need to use formalin I would use it before or after the cupramine treatment. Some times cupramine can lower oxygen levels so its a good idea to have an air sponge or air stone in the tank with the treatment. Some thing very important to have as well is a Salifert or API copper tester..preferably the Salifert it gives you a better reading. Salifert will show you a reading of between 0.25 and 0.50 the API copper tester doesn't.
I learned all this from reefsancuary.com they have a lot of knowledge on how to treat fish with ich, velvet and brook safely.

Please get a copper tester if you are going to use cupramine and don't add any other meds while using cupramine because it could turn the cupramine into a toxic copper.

 

[MarinaP]

1. I would use Cupramine for velvet

2. Hypo at 1.009 for ich

3. Hypo at 1.018 in the treatment tank +Formalin baths every other day (3 baths) for brook. Do not use formalin treatments on fish with open wounds.

4. Don't put all your eggs in one basket. If you can, move treatment/QT tanks away from the rack, preferably move them to another floor. Cross-contamination is real and present danger.

5. Use pH pinpoint monitor and refractometer during treatments, especially during baths/dips/hypo. If you do not get to or a lil below 1.009 for hypo, you will waste your time.

6. I really like the approach of moving fish that is being treated to another tank after formalin/FW baths (treatment tank>> dip/bath>> another clean 10G>>sterilize old 10G and equipment after using with bleach). Repeat three or more times.

7. Antibiotics/dewormers are your friends.

 

[WDLV]

What a lot of this seems to be boiling down to is getting better equipment. ie: UV sterilizer, better hydrometer, skimmer.
With regard to treatments and medications, you hear different things from so many different places. I feel like a newbie trying to sort all this stuff out. I also can't help but think straying away from a reef-like system is part of the problem.

 

[heap]

probably won't have much to add, as the problems you've had...luckily i haven't had to wade thru, so i wouldn't have much in the way of worthwhile advice.

all the same, just wanted to say i've already learned a thing or two, so thanks for the thread.

 

[WDLV]

Thanks.
Things are starting to look up. I have moved some of the fish from the 10 gallons to the upper rack system. I only have 7 spaces in the upper rack but I have (or had) 10 different pairs. Now I have 9 pairs or half-pairs in some cases. I put the polymnus female and the two baby clarkiis together and the big mama ocellaris with the two small perculas and the Leucokranos pair with the leuc/sandaracinos baby pair. All is going well. The ick on the polymnus and the percula male was about 1/3 less than it was yesterday morning. Hopefully by the end of the week the symptoms will be gone and I can start drilling the 10 gallon tanks for the bottom rack.
My plan has always been to set up a second rack system with 30 breeders. Latz and leucs can go in that system. It will be about the same volume but will have only about 4-6 tanks.