Fishingpcola
New member
Great thread. I am going through a dino outbreak myself. Unforunately, I just did a 20% water change.
The Guide to get rid of dinoflagellates
- Thread starter plancton
- Start date
Fishingpcola
New member
redfishsc
New member
It could be. The biggest tell-tale signs are bubbles, a slimy consistency, and occasionally if you have a bright white object in your tank (PVC or eggcrate) you can actually see an individual animal moving around if you look close enough. Dino's are pretty big for a "microscopic" animal. It's hard, but possible, to see them moving around.
redfishsc
New member
Sodium nitrate, potassium nitrate, or calcium nitrate. Any of these will work, and most you can find on Ebay.
I have agricultural grade calcium nitrate, works fine if I ever use it. I think a 5lb bag of it was like $10 and it's more nitrate than you'd ever need.
Dosing it is VERY tricky b/c you don't know for sure how much a teeny pinch will raise your nitrates in the tank.
With a little math and testing, you can figure it out.
Do this:
First buy the Salifert Nitrate kit. It reads at VERY low levels, and high levels, which is what you'll need. It's a very good kit.
Add 1/8 tsp (or 1/4, whichever you have a measuring device for) to one gallon of RO/DI water. This is your NITRATE SOLUTION that you will dose from.
Test nitrates with whatever kit you have. Should be off the charts.
Add one teaspoon of this NITRATE SOLUTION to a different gallon of clean RO water. Mix well. Test for nitrates. You should get a reading. If not, add another teaspoon of the NITRATE SOLUTION to the gallon of test-water.
Now you know how much NITRATE SOLUTION you need to raise one gallon of water to whatever number you got.
Now, to figure out how much you need to dose into the tank. Let's say, for example, that ONE teaspoon of NITRATE SOLUTION raised the gallon of clean water by 1ppm.
If your tank holds 100 gallons, you'd need 100 teaspoons of NITRATE SOLUTION to raise your water by 1ppm.
I do not recommend you raise it more than 1ppm per day. I don't recall how much the OP used per day.
redfishsc
New member
I personally have not. I've always been able to whip dinoflagellates with heavy kalk dosing, lights-out for 3 days, lots of siphoning, and heavy refugium growth.
I haven't dosed any vodka or other carbon source yet to rid dinoflagellates b/c I haven't had any hit my system, and I seriously doubt they could grow in my system right now for low nutrients (phosphate in particular).
I haven't dosed any vodka or other carbon source yet to rid dinoflagellates b/c I haven't had any hit my system, and I seriously doubt they could grow in my system right now for low nutrients (phosphate in particular).
Frick-n-Frags
New member
^the problem with feeding is all the PO4 that comes with the protein.
as mentioned above, go with a pure inorganic nitrate source like calcium nitrate or potasium nitrate. then you have no doubt you are ONLY adding NO3
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i'm not making any conclusions, but i have been eutrifying the algae population out of my 100+ gal system which contains one fish who gets a pinch of flake once a week.(blenny
). i have been slow cooking my system for over 2 years and running the skimmer the whole time. i am down to one pest: dinos. everything else has starved out or i have removed it(valonia especially) to the point where the few strays are minimal % of the algae population remaining.
i have been at a loss as to how to "super low nutrient" this, as all readings have been zero for a long time now.
this thread does offer a possibility as to why i have hit the wall.
as mentioned above, go with a pure inorganic nitrate source like calcium nitrate or potasium nitrate. then you have no doubt you are ONLY adding NO3
----------------------------------------
i'm not making any conclusions, but i have been eutrifying the algae population out of my 100+ gal system which contains one fish who gets a pinch of flake once a week.(blenny
). i have been slow cooking my system for over 2 years and running the skimmer the whole time. i am down to one pest: dinos. everything else has starved out or i have removed it(valonia especially) to the point where the few strays are minimal % of the algae population remaining.i have been at a loss as to how to "super low nutrient" this, as all readings have been zero for a long time now.
this thread does offer a possibility as to why i have hit the wall.
ArgonDreams
Premium Member
Isn't the freshwater plant supliment "flourish" Potassium Nitrate?
redfishsc
New member
Not "Flourish" (which is a mineral supplement and has no nitrogen).
"Flourish Nitrogen" contains both potassium nitrate (fine) and urea (not so fine). I personally would not dose anything containing urea into a tank unless someone else experimented on their corals first, lol.
"Flourish Nitrogen" contains both potassium nitrate (fine) and urea (not so fine). I personally would not dose anything containing urea into a tank unless someone else experimented on their corals first, lol.
I had a 4 month outbreak. Turned out my DI resin was dead. Stopped water changes, cut back on feeding. They were gone in two weeks.
The Op's method is certainly a novel approach, and I'd like to see some controlled experiments. I wonder how much of his success had to do with stopping water changes, and how much was a result of the increased nitrate. A good read nonetheless.
The Op's method is certainly a novel approach, and I'd like to see some controlled experiments. I wonder how much of his success had to do with stopping water changes, and how much was a result of the increased nitrate. A good read nonetheless.
plancton
Active member
As an update for this method:
1. I´m no longer sure the raising nitrate method is what works. Adding Nitrogen to do so its probably risky for your other organisms.
2. Most likely what did the job was to just stop waterchanges. There´s absolutely no doubt they feed on trace elements in the salt mix. Avoiding waterchanges deprives them of their food. They prefer high end salinity, when I had them my hydrometer was badly calibrated and was reading 1.024 when in reality it was 1.030. My guessing is that higher salinity means higher trace element concentration thus more food for them.
3. Honestly, using ROWA phos is always wise, but it doesn´t guarantee a solution since I have very good water quality and no phos according to electronic tests, just running a reactor with ROWA didn´t seem to make much of a difference.
4. There seems to be different types of Dinoflagellates. Some are supposed to be toxic to fish and invertebrates that eat them and to be sensible to high ph and die.
I did not have that kind, I raised my ph to a daily range of 8.5 to 8.7 and did nothing to them, also they didn´t seem to be toxic to the organisms that eat them.
My dinos did not get that affected by lights out, they needed at least 3 days of lights out to start dying and then they would come back so fast that lights out were pointless.
5. They feed on anything that can feed bacteria such as carbon dosing (vodka), amminos and coral food (prodibio reef booster).
After 1 year and a half free of dinos they just came back but I´m keeping them on control. Here´s what triggered their return:
Vodka dosing, ammino dosing, reef booster dosing, accidentaly raised salinity to 1.026(still good although high end) and weekly waterchanges. Vodka dosing seemed to be the first thing to slowly bring them back. I inmediately stopped waterchanges and after a week they began to dissapear, then I dosed prodibio reefbooster and the next morning I saw a 100% increase. Then I did a waterchange and the day after there was another very noticeable increase in their population.
Absolutely demonstrating my theories. I have just tested everything and phos is 0 on an electronic phos meter, I am using rowa right now just in case, nitrates are 0 too, and the only algae that grows in my tank right now is red cotton candy algae, which is known to grow in nutrient deprived tanks such as zeovit, these are indications that indeed the water quality is so good and so dinos feed mostly on trace elements, carbon, amminos and light.
So the absolute cure is just to avoid waterchanges as long as possible, not add carbon source such as vodka, stop coral food and aminos, wanna bet it will work?, it sure will. In my tank avoiding waterchanges is easy because I have a very good skimmer, low bioload, and good water quality, and even after 2 months of no waterchanes my nitrates raise to 1-2ppm which is really low.
The only drawbacks is that corals start becoming a bit pale in the abscence of weekly water changes but its a small sacrifice to get rid of dinos. And once they´re gone, weekly waterchanges can bring back the colors real fast, with caution of not triggering another dino boom.
Dinos are seasonal, they come back in springtime, right now in my town its spring time and they came back.
1. I´m no longer sure the raising nitrate method is what works. Adding Nitrogen to do so its probably risky for your other organisms.
2. Most likely what did the job was to just stop waterchanges. There´s absolutely no doubt they feed on trace elements in the salt mix. Avoiding waterchanges deprives them of their food. They prefer high end salinity, when I had them my hydrometer was badly calibrated and was reading 1.024 when in reality it was 1.030. My guessing is that higher salinity means higher trace element concentration thus more food for them.
3. Honestly, using ROWA phos is always wise, but it doesn´t guarantee a solution since I have very good water quality and no phos according to electronic tests, just running a reactor with ROWA didn´t seem to make much of a difference.
4. There seems to be different types of Dinoflagellates. Some are supposed to be toxic to fish and invertebrates that eat them and to be sensible to high ph and die.
I did not have that kind, I raised my ph to a daily range of 8.5 to 8.7 and did nothing to them, also they didn´t seem to be toxic to the organisms that eat them.
My dinos did not get that affected by lights out, they needed at least 3 days of lights out to start dying and then they would come back so fast that lights out were pointless.
5. They feed on anything that can feed bacteria such as carbon dosing (vodka), amminos and coral food (prodibio reef booster).
After 1 year and a half free of dinos they just came back but I´m keeping them on control. Here´s what triggered their return:
Vodka dosing, ammino dosing, reef booster dosing, accidentaly raised salinity to 1.026(still good although high end) and weekly waterchanges. Vodka dosing seemed to be the first thing to slowly bring them back. I inmediately stopped waterchanges and after a week they began to dissapear, then I dosed prodibio reefbooster and the next morning I saw a 100% increase. Then I did a waterchange and the day after there was another very noticeable increase in their population.
Absolutely demonstrating my theories. I have just tested everything and phos is 0 on an electronic phos meter, I am using rowa right now just in case, nitrates are 0 too, and the only algae that grows in my tank right now is red cotton candy algae, which is known to grow in nutrient deprived tanks such as zeovit, these are indications that indeed the water quality is so good and so dinos feed mostly on trace elements, carbon, amminos and light.
So the absolute cure is just to avoid waterchanges as long as possible, not add carbon source such as vodka, stop coral food and aminos, wanna bet it will work?, it sure will. In my tank avoiding waterchanges is easy because I have a very good skimmer, low bioload, and good water quality, and even after 2 months of no waterchanes my nitrates raise to 1-2ppm which is really low.
The only drawbacks is that corals start becoming a bit pale in the abscence of weekly water changes but its a small sacrifice to get rid of dinos. And once they´re gone, weekly waterchanges can bring back the colors real fast, with caution of not triggering another dino boom.
Dinos are seasonal, they come back in springtime, right now in my town its spring time and they came back.
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ReefTECK
New member
It sounds like my problem is nearly identical to what you have been through. In the way that my dosing/feeding/water changes had profound effects in the onset of this nusance. Also this dino sounds like it responds to the same stimulus as the one I am battling, dark barely phases them, pH doesn't.
Although, mine doesn't look the same exactly, it's a little darker, not as bubbly, and a large amount of the strings I'm getting are right directly on the coral branches and tips themselves.
Have you lost any of your corals to this infection? Have you had any of this stuff growing on your sps tips?
I've been using the same approach and method, as well as vigorous use of a turkey baster to blow dino slime off of sps tips. It's really been rough, especially when the corals were responding so amazingly well to food. Color and PE had never been more awesome right around the time this began it's onset.
It only took a week.
Regards,
Andy
Although, mine doesn't look the same exactly, it's a little darker, not as bubbly, and a large amount of the strings I'm getting are right directly on the coral branches and tips themselves.
Have you lost any of your corals to this infection? Have you had any of this stuff growing on your sps tips?
I've been using the same approach and method, as well as vigorous use of a turkey baster to blow dino slime off of sps tips. It's really been rough, especially when the corals were responding so amazingly well to food. Color and PE had never been more awesome right around the time this began it's onset.
It only took a week.
Regards,
Andy
plancton
Active member
When I had it all over it started to also grow on the tips of acros like you say. Now that its back it looks darker and less bubbly, actually in my experience that's a sign that it isn't thriving as good as it can, and it hasn't started growing on corals yet, its mostly in the bottom of the tank.
This latest boom has been under control, a few days ago it was almost gone when I skipped the weekly waterchange but then the dosing of reef booster and the waterchange one day after make it come back strong, so from this point on no waterchanges in at least a month, I bet that will kill them.
Its just that many people with this problem start thinking their water is dirt and start doing lots of waterchanges, that's why they never get rid of them and only get worst. As long as you skip waterchanges you will quickly win the battle.
This latest boom has been under control, a few days ago it was almost gone when I skipped the weekly waterchange but then the dosing of reef booster and the waterchange one day after make it come back strong, so from this point on no waterchanges in at least a month, I bet that will kill them.
Its just that many people with this problem start thinking their water is dirt and start doing lots of waterchanges, that's why they never get rid of them and only get worst. As long as you skip waterchanges you will quickly win the battle.
Can you elaborate on this?
velvetelvis
Active member
+1 I've been fighting these hateful things for two months now. And like the OP said, the aggravating thing is that my water tests out perfect--no detectable phosphates or nitrates, no ammonia, pH and alk right where they need to be. I'd been wiping down the glass with unbleached paper towels (sounds goofy, but it was recommended to me by a guy who runs a coral farm and it really did seem to help), cutting back on water changes, and keeping the pH up. All of this seemed to be slowly bringing them under control.
Then I had to remove a large amount of macroalgae (Caulerpa ashmeadii) from my tank because it was getting covered with crud and interfering with the flow in the tank, causing cyanobacteria outbreaks. Since the macro was rooted in the sand, you can imagine the dinoflagellate explosion the next day. :mad2:
I'm especially worried because I have an anemone (RBTA clone). I can't futz around too much with salinity levels or leave the lights off for a few days. And I don't want the nem to suffer from lack of water changes while I try to get rid of this plague. I'm hoping beuchat has some more advice to share, because I know he keeps anemones, too.
Then I had to remove a large amount of macroalgae (Caulerpa ashmeadii) from my tank because it was getting covered with crud and interfering with the flow in the tank, causing cyanobacteria outbreaks. Since the macro was rooted in the sand, you can imagine the dinoflagellate explosion the next day. :mad2:
I'm especially worried because I have an anemone (RBTA clone). I can't futz around too much with salinity levels or leave the lights off for a few days. And I don't want the nem to suffer from lack of water changes while I try to get rid of this plague. I'm hoping beuchat has some more advice to share, because I know he keeps anemones, too.
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dublo8
New member
here is a link to a current thread. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1962886&page=5